Spear Discussion

[Jet]

I've been thinking about how they are going to introduce spears into the game. I'm thinking of two possibilities:

1. They make a spear tree to use skill points from leveling.

2. They make a spear tree to use its own points like the werewolf and vampire trees.

As it stands, the two-handed tree for spears alone doesn't make any sense, even if they include halberds, because there are no tier 2 perks that cater to spears. I don't think spears would benefit from Devastating Blow. Imagine trying to decapitate someone with a 1 to 2-foot blade on a 5-foot pole. They're called polearms for a reason and they're a thrusting weapon, not a slicing one.

Off the top of my head, I can think of some neat things for spears in the form of perks, which is why it would have to have its own tree. With the latest rumor that they will be included in a future DLC, what do you think?

[Yaije]

it'd likely get the same treatment as crossbows got, benefiting from the 2h skill.

Also, last I checked, you can slash, slice, stab, and smoosh with one just fine depending on how your polearm (the efficiency of doing so dependent on the design and composition of the weapon.

[urthdigger]

Why don't we add medium armor and unarmed skill while we're at it? Ooh, and unarmored, that was an awesome skill.

[Jet]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SE5owAIPmk

0:46-0:53

That last attack looks like a power attack, but yeah. It's funny how much stuff from that video they've included into the game.

Why don't we add medium armor and unarmed skill while we're at it? Ooh, and unarmored, that was an awesome skill.

This is about spears, not other skills.

[Yaije]

[&@%!] spears.... mudcrabzilla!!!!1

[Musicman247]

Merged two spear threads into this one. Let's try and keep spear discussion and speculation here.

[Vardark]

Sounds pretty neat. Bethesda sounds pretty annoyed that any of this information is coming out.

... and a special April 1 content update that reaches back to one of their previous games and proves that they aren't above making fun of themselves.

Horse armor

[Ripcage]

... and a special April 1 content update that reaches back to one of their previous games and proves that they aren't above making fun of themselves.

Horse armor

[&@%!] yeah!!! Spears, mouted combat, and horse armor will be nice together.

[Derp53]

... and a special April 1 content update that reaches back to one of their previous games and proves that they aren't above making fun of themselves.

Horse armor

[&@%!] yeah!!! Spears, mouted combat, and horse armor will be nice together.

well that can be taken in 2 ways actually. Sure there is a good possibility of smoothly integrated horse armor and spears but then there is also dread at the words "Horse Armor". Hopefully bethy doesn't mess up with something like horse armor like they did in Oblivion, cause spears with an armored horse sounds kickass

[urthdigger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SE5owAIPmk

0:46-0:53

That last attack looks like a power attack, but yeah. It's funny how much stuff from that video they've included into the game.

Why don't we add medium armor and unarmed skill while we're at it? Ooh, and unarmored, that was an awesome skill.

This is about spears, not other skills.

Apparently the sarcasm went way over you head. I was referencing a bunch of other skills that were in Morrowind that haven't been seen since, skills that nobody really minds missing.

My point is that none of those skills would really add anything to the game, and quite frankly the same goes for Spear. Especially since there's no real reason for spears not to just be affected by two-handed if they are added.

[p-sto]

Actually I was disappointed when I started playing Skyrim and realized there were no skills for unarmed and unarmored, which frankly would make a hell of a lot more sense as independent skills than spears. Spears may end up with their own skill tree but really I don't see why they couldn't just be crammed into two-handed and possibly one-handed weapons.

[Mattbott]

Spears were one of the things that most impressed me about TESIII. After all, the spear is one of the most widespread weapons in the world, and one of the most ancient. To have warhammers and not spears is more weird than a, um, well, honestly the whole game is abnormal compared with Earth. :^)

yes, i agree (and with p-sto above re unarmed)

for me the spear is a role play more than max out style weapon,

if you are fighting the empire you all stand in a line of spears in the gateway to your fort and keep them at bay -
or
when a mammoth charges you, you stand your ground and brace the spear -

maybe not the most effective weapon but exciting to use

very atmospheric, very immersive. Its best use would be to keep the enemy at a distance, a perk might have been linked to spears allowing you to stagger opponents with a power attack,

it could be also developed as a variant of the defensive weapon, with those monks amongst us (and mages) finding something to do with their staves

[Jet]

They should make a perk with the spear that that lets you spin it to deflect arrows and magic projectiles/shouts. You block to do it and it drains stamina.

[Musicman247]

That sounds more like what you could do if you were a ninja with a staff, not really a warrior with a spear.

[Alnevar Odai]

Problem with adding spears as its own skill... it would undoubtedly fall in with Combat skills. BGS needs to bring back (or make up) a stealth and magic based set of skills.

Problem with this is, players that ONLY buy this DLC and have a level 81 character wont be able to benefit from the perks unless they make the skills (as mentioned) like werewolf and VL trees. This would critically unbalance the skills. Players will always have the ability to max a certain combat, magic and stealth skill which could make them end-game valuable skills. The other option is a dragonsoul for skill reset like DB DLC.

------
Another option is to add a branch to existing skill trees that benefit Combat magic and stealth.

In 1H or 2H we can see a spear branch that is mostly separate (like the dual wielding branch in 1H). In marksman we can see a throwing weapons branch(with a high-level perk to throw 1H or 2H weapons perhaps).

In magic would see a chaos or wind spell branch in destruction.
------
Or they can add these objects that can be wielded and do damage, but arent governed by any skills and MAY be affected by a perk that already exists. This would be similar to unarmed combat (with the HA perk that influences it).

An example would be spears benefit from the greatsword perks, halberds from the battleaxe and mogul maces from warhammers. Thrown weapons from the discipline perk and other "right side" perks. Wirlwind can benefit from the reduced spell costs, have greater starting damage than other spells, but not benefit from damage modifiers or elemental weaknesses.

[House of the Wolf]

I think that's the biggest hurdle for Bethy right now: trying to figure-out an equitable way to add something as game-changing (however small) as a new weapon type--crossbows and bow-and-arrows are similar enough to simply consider the two the same, spears require pretty much a completely different skill-set.

[MathiasFlynnias]

Wasn't that why Dragonborn enabled you to reset the perk trees? So that it could enable a spear perk tree for those with already high leveled players? So I don't think that's much of a problem now. But what I was thinking, as just mentioned, what could possibly be placed into stealth and magic perk trees to balance out?

[House of the Wolf]

I don't necessarily think the skill-groups need to be balanced.

[Vardark]

Problem with adding spears as its own skill... it would undoubtedly fall in with Combat skills. BGS needs to bring back (or make up) a stealth and magic based set of skills.

Problem with this is, players that ONLY buy this DLC and have a level 81 character wont be able to benefit from the perks unless they make the skills (as mentioned) like werewolf and VL trees.

Why? More skills means a higher max level, meaning more perks to spend, even if you're already level 81. The only real problem is inventing a new school of magic all of the sudden. A possibility could be a Thu'um skill.

[MathiasFlynnias]

Mysticism back. Wooo!

I know it won't happen. But I disagree, Bethesda always try to balance as of late which is why, for example, they got rid of Mysticism. I would wager they will balance it out with something. However, unless they bring back something quite obscure, like throwing stars back for stealth, I find it very hard to see what could be added to do this though.

[Yaije]

well mysticism partially went away because there were like only 4 effects in the end period. Resist, absorb, soul trap and detection? We lost access to resist and absorb as usable spells.

two spell effects didn't appear to justify a school of magic so they got merged into conjuration andalteration. I do so miss the fortification effects from previous games. Jump/acroatics was my all time favorite.

Spoiler:

Vvardenfell vamps had to travel in style and leaping from roof top to roof top was faster, stealthier, AND cheaper than levitation

edit: oh right I forgot dispell.... besides there really isn't much use for that in game outside a few key quests....

Spoiler:

archmage of the college of winterhold attempting to dispell a magical barrier by shooting lightning at it =.=

[Alnevar Odai]

Problem with adding spears as its own skill... it would undoubtedly fall in with Combat skills. BGS needs to bring back (or make up) a stealth and magic based set of skills.

Problem with this is, players that ONLY buy this DLC and have a level 81 character wont be able to benefit from the perks unless they make the skills (as mentioned) like werewolf and VL trees.

Why? More skills means a higher max level, meaning more perks to spend, even if you're already level 81. The only real problem is inventing a new school of magic all of the sudden. A possibility could be a Thu'um skill.

It is hard enough to reach 81. If you were to add 3 new skills you would likely only raise 3-6 levels. Not nearly enough to fill out even 1 of these trees.

As for the DB DLC... yes, us fans have all of the DLC (or will obtain it when its available), but sometimes you need to uninstall DLC for space/bugs/errors...etc or simply you dont feel like purchasing it, you have no alternate means of resetting your perks.
-----

Ideas for stealth skills-
Unarmed (parry, damage, ability to enchant gauntlets w/ damage, disarming, and ability to damage stamina and Magic directly (chi blocking ala Avatar LAB),
Infiltration (sneaking w/o sneaking, wear bandit clothes and get mistook for a bandit, allow you to talk with normally hostile NPCs), Tracking (assassin's vision from the game jam, making traps (uses "building materials, enchantments and or poisons together to make traps)

Ideas for magic skills
Unarmored (instead of Armor Rating, it increases resistances, magic effectiveness, recuperation rate, and reduces all spell costs, increases duration of spells, allows dodging finishing moves [side step the 2H power attack, and kill with whatever weapon/spell you have...etc).
Metaphysics: Teleportation (mark recall, waygates, Portal-gun style), Dispell (unlike previous spell iterations, this is cast on you and it dissipates the spells cast at you, picture a black hole that eats lightning bolts before they hit you). Soul emancipate (removes souls from "undead" thereby killing them. Higher level undead, harder to emancipate.) Energy field (You can cast runes that absorb their respective spell type from both you and the enemy). Divine: (master perk, that dispells damage from arrows when a dispell cloak is cast)
Instrumentation: A skill tree dedicated to making scrolls, then spell crafting, then hybrid spells (Fear+healing= Absorb health...etc)

[Imperfect Three]

Problem with adding spears as its own skill... it would undoubtedly fall in with Combat skills. BGS needs to bring back (or make up) a stealth and magic based set of skills.

Problem with this is, players that ONLY buy this DLC and have a level 81 character wont be able to benefit from the perks unless they make the skills (as mentioned) like werewolf and VL trees.

Why? More skills means a higher max level, meaning more perks to spend, even if you're already level 81. The only real problem is inventing a new school of magic all of the sudden. A possibility could be a Thu'um skill.

It is hard enough to reach 81. If you were to add 3 new skills you would likely only raise 3-6 levels. Not nearly enough to fill out even 1 of these trees.

As for the DB DLC... yes, us fans have all of the DLC (or will obtain it when its available), but sometimes you need to uninstall DLC for space/bugs/errors...etc or simply you dont feel like purchasing it, you have no alternate means of resetting your perks.
-----

Ideas for stealth skills-
Unarmed (parry, damage, ability to enchant gauntlets w/ damage, disarming, and ability to damage stamina and Magic directly (chi blocking ala Avatar LAB),
Infiltration (sneaking w/o sneaking, wear bandit clothes and get mistook for a bandit, allow you to talk with normally hostile NPCs), Tracking (assassin's vision from the game jam, making traps (uses "building materials, enchantments and or poisons together to make traps)

Ideas for magic skills
Unarmored (instead of Armor Rating, it increases resistances, magic effectiveness, recuperation rate, and reduces all spell costs, increases duration of spells, allows dodging finishing moves [side step the 2H power attack, and kill with whatever weapon/spell you have...etc).
Metaphysics: Teleportation (mark recall, waygates, Portal-gun style), Dispell (unlike previous spell iterations, this is cast on you and it dissipates the spells cast at you, picture a black hole that eats lightning bolts before they hit you). Soul emancipate (removes souls from "undead" thereby killing them. Higher level undead, harder to emancipate.) Energy field (You can cast runes that absorb their respective spell type from both you and the enemy). Divine: (master perk, that dispells damage from arrows when a dispell cloak is cast)
Instrumentation: A skill tree dedicated to making scrolls, then spell crafting, then hybrid spells (Fear+healing= Absorb health...etc)

Damn, you took all of my ideas.... I kind of thought about my earlier statement on spears and decided they would actually be pretty cool.

[Dark Spark]

Bah. They'll take the easy way out and give us glaives instead of spears.

I'm down with a combination of magical staff/voulge myself: left-hand attack shoots the magic, right-hand is the melee option.

[Mattbott]

i think the perk trees are a great way of introducing pretty much any activity without cluttering it, and i think theres a good chance TES6 will have a perk forest, with three 'trunks' that touch the ground, but where the branches often meet and intersect from the three core skill groups as skills are shared between them. You could conceivably get to a root combat skill having started off in magic, and going down branches shared by the different activity groups (eg alchemy healing and enchanting weapons are shared by fighting and magic trees)

there are many activities we're 'missing' because they are currently 'skills' which have been cut back to fit the new system - you could have acrobatics and athletics back on a branch shared by stealth and combat for example (and a twig off athletics which lets you swim faster and hold your breath underwater longer, etc , different races might start with perks already lit up and that would allow them access to parts of the trees otherwise they'd otherwise take longer accessing).

It's just takin the current skill perk tree development to its logical next step imo and to be honest its the most exciting thing about TES character mechanics