Who do you think is stronger?

[Frogmander]

Solitude: They friggin cut a dudes head off for doing his job, opening/closing gates, people are cheering too while this goes on!

I think you're downplaying his role quite a bit. he let Ulfric out of the city after he killed the High King and he did it knowing what Ulfric had just done. He had let a traitor out of the city to escape justice

I would also like to point out they totally ignored his claims while he was yelling out what he saw. He didn't see any problems with it, he killed him in fair combat and so he let him out. When he yelled out what he saw they just cut his head off. At the start of the game they give the stormcloaks no trial and even cover Ulfrics mouth, sure he can't shout, at the same time he can't try to reason with them, or tell them his side of the story.

[11Justin93]

The Legion is stronger because they have me . Joking aside, the Legion has to be stronger. An organized, well-trained, well-equipped army beats a rabble of rash ruffians any day of the week. Even with their misguided cause to rally behind the Stormcloaks can't beat the Empire.

Ever hear of Afghanistan? No matter how well-trained your troops are, and how advanced your military technology is, you simply can't wipe out an idea and a system of values. Prohibition, no matter how strenuously applied, has never made anything go away.

I'm not talking about wiping out the idea of an independent Skyrim. I know some Nords will always have this idea floating around in their heads. You can, however, stop the rebellion with the proper application of military force.

[Frogmander]

The Legion is stronger because they have me . Joking aside, the Legion has to be stronger. An organized, well-trained, well-equipped army beats a rabble of rash ruffians any day of the week. Even with their misguided cause to rally behind the Stormcloaks can't beat the Empire.

Ever hear of Afghanistan? No matter how well-trained your troops are, and how advanced your military technology is, you simply can't wipe out an idea and a system of values. Prohibition, no matter how strenuously applied, has never made anything go away.

Except the US doesn't own the entire world, and the various terrorists are also attacking outside of Afghan, while the Empire owns Tamriel (Well, having troubles now with Thalmor) and the Stormcloaks just want Skyrim.

[RedDeadFred]

Solitude: They friggin cut a dudes head off for doing his job, opening/closing gates, people are cheering too while this goes on!

I think you're downplaying his role quite a bit. he let Ulfric out of the city after he killed the High King and he did it knowing what Ulfric had just done. He had let a traitor out of the city to escape justice

Ulfric challenged the King and he accepted. There was nothing traitorous about it.

If we look at the Legion just in Skyrim than sure, a lot may be willing to recognize the Dragonborn. However, the majority of the Legion is in the Imperial Province and I don't think they care very much for these old legends. Keep in mind that there hasn't been a Dragonborn Emperor in 200 years.

Tulius shows a complete lack of understanding or respect for the legends of the Drsgonborn whole Ulfric shows his respect for you whether you side with him or not.

I know that Tulius doesn't represent the majority of the Legion's beliefs in Skyrim, but I doubt that's the case in any of the other provinces.

I realize that both sides know that the Thalmor are the biggest threat but I don't really see how anyone could say that the Stormcloaks don't acknowledge and respect the Dragonborn more than the Legion.

As others have already stated, there are 2 different questions here. I believe that the Legion is stronger than the Stormcloaks when the Dragonborn doesn't pick a side, but I think the Stormcloaks are more deserving of the Dragonborn's aid than the Legion.

[Esmok Kronik]

Alot of misunderstanding when it comes to Ulfric I think we should all read "The Bear of Markarth"

If Ulfric hadnt butchered the Forsworn, the Empire would have secured a treaty with them(the forsworn).

The Forsworn rule was very peaceful and the only people who had violence brought against them was racsist Nords such as Ulfric.

He in-turn used this "violence" to rally support for his un-just cause and shortly after followed a bloody civil war.

I love Nords, play as one in-game, however, ita very easy to say, "pull the wool over their eyes"

I as an Imperiel Nord I thank Talos that Brun-Winter(sp) replaced Ulfric. If he had won the war, mark my words Skyrim would be run into the ground. Ulfric is a warrior, not one to lead people...IMO he does not see the big picture, he acts far to rash.

~

His murder of the high king was not traitorous, IMO It shows how weak that boy truely was...If Ulfric strolled in with such ease what stoped an average assassin from doing the same.// Also what he did was not aganist Skyrim's traditions - something the Empire should consider IMO

[RedDeadFred]

See this isn't really about which leaders have more skeletons in their closets. It's about which side as a whole truly deserves the Dragonborn's aid. The general ideals of the Stormcloaks are more respectful and accepting of what the Dragonborn is.

I actually like Tulius more than Ulfric. Tulius may be ignorant but Ulfric is really a pretty bad guy. That said, if he does start to run Skyrim into the ground, what's stopping the Dragonborn from challenging Ulfric, easily destroying him, taking the throne himself or putting someone there who is a better ruler, and then keeping the main ideology of the Stormcloaks?

Edit: inserted an "if" because without it, my argument is quite different.

[Crepe the Ashlander]

To be honest, it's hard to say, whereas the Stormcloaks would certainly honour him more, as the dragonborn legend is from back in ancient Skyrim and their traditions, thus the SC would undoubtedly honour them more.

On the other hand, the Empire has always had a dragonborn emperor, was founded by a dragonborn, it's patron is Akatosh etc. etc., it just seems more right for the Empire to be have the icon that is the dragonborn.

Who is the strongest? Definitely the Legion, after all, who is the one who is gagged and ready to be executed at the beginning of the game? I certainly can't remember Tullius being in that position.

[ScorpionGT1]

Imperials don't accept Talos as a god. The Stormcloaks do. That alone shows who would honor him more...

Yes they do, they're just banned from worshiping him by the Thalmor. But they still wouldn't really know what the Dragonborn is.

I'm pretty sure the Imperials revere the Dragonborn as much as anyone, considering all the Emperors used to be Dragonborn and the Dragonborn was the symbol of a unified Tamriel.

Also, the original Legions were largely comprised of Nords who assisted Talos Stormcrown. There's a strong Imperial connection to the Dragonborn.

While most of the legionnaires of Skyrim, being Nords, would know, the Imperials themselves don't seem to remember as well. Balgruuf's steward, Proventus Avenicci, called the Dragonborn "Nord nonsense". Maybes he's ignorant, or maybe the Imperials have forgotten what it truly means to be Dragonborn. The Dragonborn Emperors were quite different from our Dragonborn. They didn't have the use of the Voice (unless they decided to learn it from the Greybeards), and didn't go around slaying dragons.

[DikaSmausha]

While that is true, this question is what the modern day legion is, which are disrespectful against other cultures.

Disrespectul against other cultures?

Tullius said it himself. "You started this war - plunged Skyrim into chaos." The Legion was just there to keep the peace up until that point. That would be like the U.S. army standing around and doing nothing when someone murders a foreign ambassador, which is basically what the High King of Skyrim is - he's the link between Skyrim and the Empire.

Also, at least one Imperial general left a shadow legion behind in Hammerfell to help them fight the Dominion. I'd say the Empire is one of the most cosmopolitan and respectful cultures in all of Tamriel. Cyrodill is a melting pot after all, and Imperials have a lot of Nord blood. If anything the Stormcloaks come across as xenophobic in this game, whereas the Imperials are trying to restore peace and order.

Yeah, disrespectful against other cultures. The Legion should take Cyrodiil and let others have their own country, which is what will happen as the Legion is falling apart. Just like the Romans did. They are to corrupt to even be considered a strong legion, and they will never rebuild themselves. At least the Stromcloaks are all true and honorable and respectful to each other.
Also, did I miss something? When did Ulfric murder the High King? He didnt, he challenged him and Toryyg accepted and lost. Are you trying to tell me that taking away a divine is not disrespectful to other cultures? Or just people, for that matter. There could be people out there that worship Talos and nothing else, and making it illegal doesnt affect them. Plus, anyone who teams with the Aldermi Dominion because they dont want their precious Emperor to die is corrupted, and stupid.

[DikaSmausha]

Who is the strongest? Definitely the Legion, after all, who is the one who is gagged and ready to be executed at the beginning of the game? I certainly can't remember Tullius being in that position.

I sure can remember someone being in a similar postion...

Spoiler:

The Emperor

[He11Kn1ght]

At least the Stromcloaks are all true and honorable and respectful to each other.

yeah, but they're racists to anyone else, especially elves

Are you trying to tell me that taking away a divine is not disrespectful to other cultures? Or just people, for that matter. There could be people out there that worship Talos and nothing else, and making it illegal doesnt affect them.

I dont think anyone is saying that.

Plus, anyone who teams with the Aldermi Dominion because they dont want their precious Emperor to die is corrupted, and stupid.

The Emperor surrendered so the legions could recoup and to avoid devastating the Empire even more. He did it cause he saw it as a temporary way for the legions to regain their strength, not to avoid his death. The Empire don't like the Aldmeri Dominion, they're just playing along until they have enough strength to fight effectively again.

Spoiler:

Also, when he was faced with his inevitable death, he didnt run and hide. He looked the Dovahkiin square in the eye and was a complete gentleman to them.

I sure can remember someone being in a similar postion...

Spoiler:

The Emperor

I dont think thats a fair comparison. You are the Dovahkiin after all. The Dovahkiin is much more powerful than normal mortals and so can do much more than simple men. Tullius is a simple man but was able to capture the leader of the rebels

[Br3admax]

He ambushed them, plus my assassin never knew he was Dragonborn, it's his Shezzarine nature that makes him so powerful, that Dragon soul is only for shouts.

[Yaije]

At least the Stromcloaks are all true and honorable and respectful to each other.

yeah, but they're racists to anyone else, especially elves

This just in... everyone's racist in the game. It's not new or original and everyone has certain groups they don't like. Most Nord dislike magic and elves. Hell a lot of people dislike magic and elves. Others dislike Argonian, Khajiit and other beast races.

Stormcloaks are at least open about their dislike of others unlike other groups who just sit back and hold it in cause they were told to play nice.

[11Justin93]

I don't recall everyone in the game being racist and disrespectful. It just seemed like the Stormcloaks and the Thalmor to me.

[Crepe the Ashlander]

They are too corrupt to even be considered a strong legion, and they will never rebuild themselves.

Where do you get that they are corrupt? Some of the Jarls they support (one I think) are corrupt, but the Legion? No, I can't remember anything about them being corrupt.

At least the Stromcloaks are all true and honorable and respectful to each other.

True? Once again the corruption bit from above? Honourable? It's a war get over yourself. Respectful to each other? At any point in the Legion campaign or anywhere else do you see a Legionnaire being disrespectful to another Legionnaire?

Also, did I miss something? When did Ulfric murder the High King? He didnt, he challenged him and Toryyg accepted and lost.

Neither side of this argument is ever confirmed in the entire game. Although I have to say Ulfric using his voice to defeat Torygg is a bit jilted.

Plus, anyone who teams with the Aldermi Dominion because they dont want their precious Emperor to die is corrupted, and stupid.

They didn't team up with the Dominion, they made a peace treaty with them, that's like saying at the end of WW2, Britain teamed up with Germany. Mede didn't stop the war because he was trying to save himself, he did it so his Legions could get their energy back, if anything it was a tactically sound thing to do.

[DikaSmausha]

They are too corrupt to even be considered a strong legion, and they will never rebuild themselves.

Where do you get that they are corrupt? Some of the Jarls they support (one I think) are corrupt, but the Legion? No, I can't remember anything about them being corrupt.

At least the Stromcloaks are all true and honorable and respectful to each other.

True? Once again the corruption bit from above? Honourable? It's a war get over yourself. Respectful to each other? At any point in the Legion campaign or anywhere else do you see a Legionnaire being disrespectful to another Legionnaire?

Also, did I miss something? When did Ulfric murder the High King? He didnt, he challenged him and Toryyg accepted and lost.

Neither side of this argument is ever confirmed in the entire game. Although I have to say Ulfric using his voice to defeat Torygg is a bit jilted.

Plus, anyone who teams with the Aldermi Dominion because they dont want their precious Emperor to die is corrupted, and stupid.

They didn't team up with the Dominion, they made a peace treaty with them, that's like saying at the end of WW2, Britain teamed up with Germany. Mede didn't stop the war because he was trying to save himself, he did it so his Legions could get their energy back, if anything it was a tactically sound thing to do.

Where do I get they are corrupt? The fact that they have betrayals all the time, including Moiterre.
I never did say a Legionarre soilder, I am referring to citizens. Every single Imperial that supports the Legion dislikes the other races, Remember the Countess of Leyawin? That is one example there.
It actually is confirmed, by the Court of Solitude.
And yes, I am a hater of the Thalmor, so I wouldnt sign a Peace Treaty with them. Med made no smart tatic, as it just brung another war on their hands. So getting their energy back isnt helping at all. Mede didnt stop war, he was given a choice, live or die. Pretty obvious which one he chose.

[DikaSmausha]

At least the Stromcloaks are all true and honorable and respectful to each other.

yeah, but they're racists to anyone else, especially elves

Are you trying to tell me that taking away a divine is not disrespectful to other cultures? Or just people, for that matter. There could be people out there that worship Talos and nothing else, and making it illegal doesnt affect them.

I dont think anyone is saying that.

Plus, anyone who teams with the Aldermi Dominion because they dont want their precious Emperor to die is corrupted, and stupid.

The Emperor surrendered so the legions could recoup and to avoid devastating the Empire even more. He did it cause he saw it as a temporary way for the legions to regain their strength, not to avoid his death. The Empire don't like the Aldmeri Dominion, they're just playing along until they have enough strength to fight effectively again.

Spoiler:

Also, when he was faced with his inevitable death, he didnt run and hide. He looked the Dovahkiin square in the eye and was a complete gentleman to them.

I sure can remember someone being in a similar postion...

Spoiler:

The Emperor

I dont think thats a fair comparison. You are the Dovahkiin after all. The Dovahkiin is much more powerful than normal mortals and so can do much more than simple men. Tullius is a simple man but was able to capture the leader of the rebels

See, that is what you dont understand. The Stormcloaks all have the same beleifs, some are just more racist than others. Ulfric isnt really that racist.
Crepe was.
It was not a smart move as they started another war, and the Thalmor already knows what they are trying to do.
It wasnt just Tullius...

[Poohunter]

The septim bloodline, the ones who used to rule over the empire, are all dragonborn. So I believe in a way the empire would. Although the stormcloaks stick to ancient Nord traditions, the Empire used to have all their emporers as Dragonborn. Since the Septim bloodline ended, they had no other Dragonborn to rule the empire, therefore they chose this Titus Mede loser or whoever.

[DikaSmausha]

Not the modern day Empire, though. Tehy dont treat the dragonborn the same way as their Emperors.

[Crepe the Ashlander]

[quote="DikaSmausha]some are just more racist than others. Ulfric isnt really that racist.
Crepe was.[/quote]

What?

[Yaije]

I don't recall everyone in the game being racist and disrespectful. It just seemed like the Stormcloaks and the Thalmor to me.

You must not play a Khajiit/Argonian.

More than just stormcloaks are racist. Yes a lot of the racism is seen in the form of stormcloak supporters or Thalmer, but it is by no means isolated to them alone.

[Pavouk106]

Stronger faction would be Empire (with Thalmor behind them). But I think Stormcloacks are more worthy to be joined by Dragonborn.

[Lotet]

An organized, well-trained, well-equipped army beats a rabble of rash ruffians any day of the week. Even with their misguided cause to rally behind the Stormcloaks can't beat the Empire.

except for, you know, all those civil wars and rebellions in the world where the rabble won.

[Chaos the N'wah]

Alot of misunderstanding when it comes to Ulfric I think we should all read "The Bear of Markarth"

yeah, because a book written by an Imperial with deep Forsworn sympathies is a great source for objective facts
The book is so over the top and add to the fact that the Cidgha Mine quest talks of the reinstated Jarl being the one that cuts off children's heads cements it as propaganda at best

I don't recall everyone in the game being racist and disrespectful. It just seemed like the Stormcloaks and the Thalmor to me.

I always play as Khajiit, even the Dunmer in the Grey Quarter call me "Cat" and the Imperial aligned cities still don't let Khajiit in their walls (Bar the player)

Of course, one could always replay Morrowind to gain perspective on the difference between racism and xenophobia, but sadly few people seem to understand that government sanctioned slavery is not equivalent to mild racism

On topic: Stormcloaks in spirit, Legion in Strength

[DikaSmausha]

[quote="DikaSmausha]some are just more racist than others. Ulfric isnt really that racist.
Crepe was.

What?[/quote][/quote]
You missunderstood. I was referring to another thing he said. Not that.