Torygg & Ulfric Duel etc (possible spoilers)

[Derp53]

i would have to call Ulfric an opportunist seizing upon a good opportunity. all in all he did kill torryg fair and square but he also used it for selfish gains which doesn't make him the nicest guy but u need to admit he a good warrior and decent strategist

[Jabbrwock]

Single combat happened on a battlefield, not a courtyard.

Duels, for honor or for judicial means, were also discussed beforehand to establish the conditions when honor was satisfied and the dispute resolved in the eyes of the contestants and of the gods.

Something tells me that Ulfric left something out of that agreement...

The game does not provide enough information on the customary usages in Nord duels. The Thu'um may be perfectly acceptable, as the archetypical weapon of ancient Nord heroes. The Thu'um may be utterly forbidden, as a religious blessing intended, by the philosophy of Jurgen Windcaller which Ulfric accepted in order to receive his training, solely to commune with Kynareth. We don't know yet. We may never know. It's likely, given that the Empire prefers stability and has probably done its best to suppress the Nord tradition of dueling to resolve disputes for the past few centuries, that even the Nords of Skyrim don't actually know. That would certainly explain why Skyrim is so evenly split at the start of the game.

In questions of power politics, when neither side can present a compelling case for being "right," the traditional way to resolve disputes is what actually is happening in the game - war. Whoever wins the war decides which set of rules applies.

[roleplayer242426]

I think Jabb hit the nail on the head here. Also, the Thu'um isn't actually what killed him either, to be technical here.

[Dark Spark]

Obviously none of you picked up on the subtext (which is odd, since I actually spelled it out in text).

I wasn't laying down those examples as ground rules. I was trying the illustrate the underlying philosophies behind such arranged fights.

[soda popinski]

Maybe i missed it, but why are you all saying that the Thu'um didnt kill him?

There are numerous people, direct witness in several instances, who say that it killed him

[Gideon Dragontongue]

Ulfric used the Thu'um to weaken him, but it was his blade that killed Torygg in the end.

[Da_BossMaN69]

Obviously none of you picked up on the subtext (which is odd, since I actually spelled it out in text).

I wasn't laying down those examples as ground rules. I was trying the illustrate the underlying philosophies behind such arranged fights.

You're trying to say single combat happens on a battlefield, this happened on a courtyard, and it was purely for political reasons.

[Redguard_Master]

Ulfric used the Thu'um to weaken him, but it was his blade that killed Torygg in the end.

That's what Ulfric said, there's apparently quite a bit of he said she said going on in-game about this.

[Da_BossMaN69]

Ulfric used the Thu'um to weaken him, but it was his blade that killed Torygg in the end.

That's what Ulfric said, there's apparently quite a bit of he said she said going on in-game about this.

Oh yeah that's right Ulfric said it, and I hate Ulfric, so subjectively it must be false, it's coming from the lying, snake's mouth! So what if he was the person committing the action, I trust the word of the sycophant/dishonest thanes and random Guards than the man himself, because there's no way a single thing he says or does can be good/honest.

[Gideon Dragontongue]

Interestingly, Torygg seems to have actually held Ulfric in high regard and probably would have allowed him an advisory position...This alone is what I don't like about Ulfric, as in he would only be happy as king, even if he was in a position of power.

[Tarquin Dynatus]

Interestingly, Torygg seems to have actually held Ulfric in high regard and probably would have allowed him an advisory position...This alone is what I don't like about Ulfric, as in he would only be happy as king, even if he was in a position of power.

That's exactly it. Ulfric could have pursued peaceful means to have an impact on Skyrim. It wasn't as if the guy had no choice to advance his ideals for Skyrim except through regicide. But from what we see and hear, he didn't even bother. It's as Balgruuf said, "he killed Torygg because he could".

[Redguard_Master]

Ulfric used the Thu'um to weaken him, but it was his blade that killed Torygg in the end.

That's what Ulfric said, there's apparently quite a bit of he said she said going on in-game about this.

Oh yeah that's right Ulfric said it, and I hate Ulfric, so subjectively it must be false, it's coming from the lying, snake's mouth! So what if he was the person committing the action, I trust the word of the sycophant/dishonest thanes and random Guards than the man himself, because there's no way a single thing he says or does can be good/honest.

I never said that. Ulf says one thing, lot of people say the other. Really nothing to prove anything one way or the other.

[Will Zurmacht]

Ulfric could have pursued peaceful means to have an impact on Skyrim.

False. Ulfric wants the Empire out for various reasons. But the Empire, the true elephant in the room looming over every Torygg-Ulfric duel discussion, was never going to leave without a fight. By killing Torygg, the Empire's chief collaborator in Skyrim, Ulfric gained the first symbolic victory over foreign control and provoked the inevitable fight with the Empire on his terms.

The best way to begin an inevitable war is with a successful pre-emptive strike. Just like the Dominion did at the opening of the Great War.

[Tarquin Dynatus]

Ulfric could have pursued peaceful means to have an impact on Skyrim.

False. Ulfric wants the Empire out for various reasons. But the Empire, the true elephant in the room looming over every Torygg-Ulfric duel discussion, was never going to leave without a fight. By killing Torygg, the Empire's chief collaborator in Skyrim, Ulfric gained the first symbolic victory over foreign control and provoked the inevitable fight with the Empire on his terms.

The best way to begin an inevitable war is with a successful pre-emptive strike. Just like the Dominion did at the opening of the Great War.

I said that Ulfric could have had an impact, not that he could have negotiated for the Empire to just go away. That would be asking too much, and for that to happen he naturally needed to kill Torygg

It seems feasible that people in Skyrim could have continued their quiet worship of Talos, the province could have recovered from the Great War and everyone could have gone about their business as per usual. Ulfric could have played a role in government to the receptive young High King. But Ulfric is clearly not someone inclined to compromise and patience. So he very loudly whips up a frenzy about Talos worship to polarise society and follows up by killing the High King and putting himself up as candidate for the throne.

Conditions in Skyrim under Torygg were hardly intolerable, and as a Talos worshipper we can be sure the man did what he could to allow his people to quietly continue to honour their traditions. But even this very reasonable set of circumstances was apparently not good enough for Ulfric. Or the man simply wants to be High King.

[Will Zurmacht]

I said that Ulfric could have had an impact, not that he could have negotiated for the Empire to just go away. That would be asking too much, and for that to happen he naturally needed to kill Torygg.

Very good then, because that is the whole matter. Ulfric is not a young man; he has a couple more decades at most to make as big a difference in his homeland as possible. Subtle court maneuvering (which Ulfric is clearly not made for, anyway) would achieve naught: a Medean veto, laundered through Torygg, hangs over all. No, to remake Skyrim after his vision Ulfric requires royal authority unimpeded by foreign influence.

Thus to attain political self-determination and to regain cultural pride, only one option remains: war, against both foreign enemies and their domestic collaborators. And best now, at a time when the Empire is at its weakest.

[ThePainkiller88]

Just because duels in our world have specific rules, does not mean the duels in ES are the same. From the way they are talked about in game, I'd say a duel is just basically someone challenging someone else, and then fighting to the death. Ulfric's challenge and subsequent killing of Torygg was perfectly legal by Nordic tradition. He fled because he knew the Empire wouldn't respect Nordic tradition and try to have him apprehended. They couldn't let the man who just killed their hand-picked puppet king walk away freely, could they? He needed to make a statement about the current state Skyrim was in, and he did just that.

[Jabbrwock]

Just because duels in our world have specific rules, does not mean the duels in ES are the same. From the way they are talked about in game, I'd say a duel is just basically someone challenging someone else, and then fighting to the death. Ulfric's challenge and subsequent killing of Torygg was perfectly legal by Nordic tradition. He fled because he knew the Empire wouldn't respect Nordic tradition and try to have him apprehended. They couldn't let the man who just killed their hand-picked puppet king walk away freely, could they? He needed to make a statement about the current state Skyrim was in, and he did just that.

We don't know that. We don't know much of anything. I find it supremely unlikely, for example, that a traditional Nord duel would allow the use of magic, or of poison. There are strong arguments on either side about whether the Thu'um would be allowed. Regardless, this isn't a case of one culture having one set of rules, and another culture having another set. This is a case of every culture that has allowed formal duels having some form of rules, and you arguing that somehow, the Nords are an exception and *THEIR* duels are "anything goes." This, in spite of the fact that Nords have traditional very strong dislikes for some forms of combat, and would not respect their use at all. Imperials might have that "Bring whatever you like to the dueling grounds" attitude, because Imperials are utterly pragmatic and embrace pretty much whatever works. Nords are not so practical, and are far more wedded to their traditions and their honor.

As for why Ulfric had to flee, you're right to an extent. Regardless of whether he was "right" or not, he was in a stronghold of the Empire after killing the Empire's favored ruler. He had to get away. This does not mean he was right and that the Thu'um was an allowable weapon. It merely means that even if he was right, he would still have had to flee.

[ThePainkiller88]

My bad. When I said fight to the death, I was assuming we'd rule out magic or poison/stealth tactics since we're talking about Nords. I see no reason why the Thu'um would not be allowed. Almost every great ancient hero of the Nords through time has used the Thu'um. True, Ulfric's use of it was against the teachings of the Way of the Voice, but that isn't a "law" followed throughout the land. All we have to go on is our knowledge of Nord culture, and what characters say in-game. We get from the Imperial sympathizers, "Ulfric murdered Torygg in cold blood!" and from rebels, "Ulfric challenged Torygg in single combat, and killed him.". Nords put very high value on actual combat prowess. Face to face combat prowess. Ulfric challenged Torygg, used an ancient weapon that every Nordic hero through time has used, and killed him. I don't see anything underhanded about that. Not to mention that there's a very good chance even without the Thu'um Ulfric would have killed him easily. Everyone in Skyrim refers to Torygg as a "poor boy" and Ulfric a seasoned war veteran.

[Gideon Dragontongue]

My personal opinion is that Ulfric was within rights to use the Thu'um, but he shouldn't have challenged Torygg in the first place. Torygg had a lot of respect for Ulfric, and, as I've said before, I think he probably would have made him an adviser of some sort, if Ulfric had just asked. Instead, he killed Torygg with the intentions of making a statement and clearing the way for himself to become High King.

[ThePainkiller88]

My personal opinion is that Ulfric was within rights to use the Thu'um, but he shouldn't have challenged Torygg in the first place. Torygg had a lot of respect for Ulfric, and, as I've said before, I think he probably would have made him an adviser of some sort, if Ulfric had just asked. Instead, he killed Torygg with the intentions of making a statement and clearing the way for himself to become High King.

I agree, Torygg didn't deserve that kind of death. That said, I still always side with the Stormcloaks. I would rather follow Ulfric than Tullius and the tattered remains of the Empire any day.

[SilentPsycho]

Just because duels in our world have specific rules, does not mean the duels in ES are the same. From the way they are talked about in game, I'd say a duel is just basically someone challenging someone else, and then fighting to the death. Ulfric's challenge and subsequent killing of Torygg was perfectly legal by Nordic tradition. He fled because he knew the Empire wouldn't respect Nordic tradition and try to have him apprehended. They couldn't let the man who just killed their hand-picked puppet king walk away freely, could they? He needed to make a statement about the current state Skyrim was in, and he did just that.

We don't know that. We don't know much of anything. I find it supremely unlikely, for example, that a traditional Nord duel would allow the use of magic, or of poison. There are strong arguments on either side about whether the Thu'um would be allowed. Regardless, this isn't a case of one culture having one set of rules, and another culture having another set. This is a case of every culture that has allowed formal duels having some form of rules, and you arguing that somehow, the Nords are an exception and *THEIR* duels are "anything goes." This, in spite of the fact that Nords have traditional very strong dislikes for some forms of combat, and would not respect their use at all. Imperials might have that "Bring whatever you like to the dueling grounds" attitude, because Imperials are utterly pragmatic and embrace pretty much whatever works. Nords are not so practical, and are far more wedded to their traditions and their honor.

Pretty much all the duels played in the previous games, such as the duel for Redoran Grandmaster in Morrowind, or the Arena duels in Oblivion, or the merchant/tavern owner duels of Daggerfall, are pretty much anything-goes.

[Jabbrwock]

My bad. When I said fight to the death, I was assuming we'd rule out magic or poison/stealth tactics since we're talking about Nords. I see no reason why the Thu'um would not be allowed. Almost every great ancient hero of the Nords through time has used the Thu'um. True, Ulfric's use of it was against the teachings of the Way of the Voice, but that isn't a "law" followed throughout the land. All we have to go on is our knowledge of Nord culture, and what characters say in-game. We get from the Imperial sympathizers, "Ulfric murdered Torygg in cold blood!" and from rebels, "Ulfric challenged Torygg in single combat, and killed him.". Nords put very high value on actual combat prowess. Face to face combat prowess. Ulfric challenged Torygg, used an ancient weapon that every Nordic hero through time has used, and killed him. I don't see anything underhanded about that. Not to mention that there's a very good chance even without the Thu'um Ulfric would have killed him easily. Everyone in Skyrim refers to Torygg as a "poor boy" and Ulfric a seasoned war veteran.

The ancient Nord heroes used shouts in combat. Then they got their people butchered by the Chimer and Dwemer at Red Mountain, and since then the rule has been that the Thu'um is not for combat, and the Nord defeat at Red Mountain was caused by misuse of the Thu'um. The Graybeards have been teaching that for centuries, and they are very well respected in Skyrim. The only exception to this rule that we have seen is the Dragonblood - a dovahkin who is granted his affinity for the Thu'um by Akatosh has a destiny that presumably involves that affinity, so he's allowed to use it in combat. Nobody else is. Heck, the Graybeards aren't even all that thrilled about him using it in combat.

[Jabbrwock]

Just because duels in our world have specific rules, does not mean the duels in ES are the same. From the way they are talked about in game, I'd say a duel is just basically someone challenging someone else, and then fighting to the death. Ulfric's challenge and subsequent killing of Torygg was perfectly legal by Nordic tradition. He fled because he knew the Empire wouldn't respect Nordic tradition and try to have him apprehended. They couldn't let the man who just killed their hand-picked puppet king walk away freely, could they? He needed to make a statement about the current state Skyrim was in, and he did just that.

We don't know that. We don't know much of anything. I find it supremely unlikely, for example, that a traditional Nord duel would allow the use of magic, or of poison. There are strong arguments on either side about whether the Thu'um would be allowed. Regardless, this isn't a case of one culture having one set of rules, and another culture having another set. This is a case of every culture that has allowed formal duels having some form of rules, and you arguing that somehow, the Nords are an exception and *THEIR* duels are "anything goes." This, in spite of the fact that Nords have traditional very strong dislikes for some forms of combat, and would not respect their use at all. Imperials might have that "Bring whatever you like to the dueling grounds" attitude, because Imperials are utterly pragmatic and embrace pretty much whatever works. Nords are not so practical, and are far more wedded to their traditions and their honor.

Pretty much all the duels played in the previous games, such as the duel for Redoran Grandmaster in Morrowind, or the Arena duels in Oblivion, or the merchant/tavern owner duels of Daggerfall, are pretty much anything-goes.

A point. You cannot necessarily accept game mechanics as an argument for lore issues. Note, for example, the way guilds accept pretty much anybody and elevated my Orc berserker with almost no magical skills at all as the Archmage of the College of Winterhold. That said, you cannot necessarily discount game mechanics as an argument for lore issues either. The Redoran Grandmaster is particularly telling, since IIRC Great House Redoran is the Warrior-ish house in Morrowind, and would tend to be closer to the Nord view with respect to how you demonstrate superiority in a duel.

I am somewhat convinced, but only somewhat. I am particularly unconvinced on the issue of the Thu'um, simply because the Graybeards have been shaping Nord culture for centuries, and their rules say that the Thu'um is not to be used in combat. Ulfric is not Dragonborn - in order to learn the Thu'um, he had to accept the Way of the Voice to get training from the Graybeards. That makes his use of the Thu'um in the duel a violation of his personal oath, regardless of any rules of the duel.

[ThePainkiller88]

My bad. When I said fight to the death, I was assuming we'd rule out magic or poison/stealth tactics since we're talking about Nords. I see no reason why the Thu'um would not be allowed. Almost every great ancient hero of the Nords through time has used the Thu'um. True, Ulfric's use of it was against the teachings of the Way of the Voice, but that isn't a "law" followed throughout the land. All we have to go on is our knowledge of Nord culture, and what characters say in-game. We get from the Imperial sympathizers, "Ulfric murdered Torygg in cold blood!" and from rebels, "Ulfric challenged Torygg in single combat, and killed him.". Nords put very high value on actual combat prowess. Face to face combat prowess. Ulfric challenged Torygg, used an ancient weapon that every Nordic hero through time has used, and killed him. I don't see anything underhanded about that. Not to mention that there's a very good chance even without the Thu'um Ulfric would have killed him easily. Everyone in Skyrim refers to Torygg as a "poor boy" and Ulfric a seasoned war veteran.

The ancient Nord heroes used shouts in combat. Then they got their people butchered by the Chimer and Dwemer at Red Mountain, and since then the rule has been that the Thu'um is not for combat, and the Nord defeat at Red Mountain was caused by misuse of the Thu'um. The Graybeards have been teaching that for centuries, and they are very well respected in Skyrim. The only exception to this rule that we have seen is the Dragonblood - a dovahkin who is granted his affinity for the Thu'um by Akatosh has a destiny that presumably involves that affinity, so he's allowed to use it in combat. Nobody else is. Heck, the Graybeards aren't even all that thrilled about him using it in combat.

You have a point, I had completely forgot about Red Mountain and the misuse of the Thu'um. I'll say that because of that point, my argument for it has ended.

That being said, I think Ulfric would've been able to kill Torygg even without the Thu'um. Which I think would have made an even bigger point.

[Jordy]

The ancient Nord heroes used shouts in combat. Then they got their people butchered by the Chimer and Dwemer at Red Mountain, and since then the rule has been that the Thu'um is not for combat, and the Nord defeat at Red Mountain was caused by misuse of the Thu'um...

My memories of this piece of lore are hazy at best...could you give me a source? Not because I doubt you, but I'd like to re-read it myself