Torygg & Ulfric Duel etc (possible spoilers)

[Daemos Avetorii]

From what I can glean from the gateguard that is executed. Ulfric "challenged" Torygg to a duel. Since this would imply that both consented to this duel. That would make it a legitimate duel. And also would mean that the victor would not be deemed a criminal.
Ulfric won, and somehow left/fled the city. The imperials killed the gateguard that let him out shortly thereafter.

Does this mean the empire has a hard enough time to stay alive and cannot allow the jarls to become independant with Ulfric, so Skyrim would essentially secede from the empire, meaning what's left of the empire becomes less and less? Is that why tullius killed the gateguard without an apparant fair trial? Also if the duel was in Nordic terms legal.... Then why would the imperials even intervene?
Am I missing something here? debate!

[Gideon Dragontongue]

Part of the reason Ulfric doesn't like the current Imperial regime is that they don't respect Nordic tradition. So yes, lots of in-game discussion about how Tullius thinks it would be wrong to kill Torygg at any time because it's not how civilized people behaved, and Ulfric is trying to make the Imperials respect the right to the throne by combat.

Also, my personal opinion is that Torygg did agree to the duel, thinking he would be able to fight Ulfric, Stormcloak simply used the Thu'um, and Torygg didn't stand a chance.

[Daemos Avetorii]

I absolutely agree.

Btw is there any reference or lore about how Ulfric learned to use the Thu'um?

[Gideon Dragontongue]

He trained with the Greybeards from a young age.

[Jeff]

Once someone makes the Challenge, you have to accept, or you lose face and claim as High King. Then Ulfric could have called for a new Moot, to Challenge Torygg's claim as High King. ...so, Torygg did not have much choice. Even Elsif states that Ulfric made a Challenge, so there really is not much debate on that matter.

If Ulfric had confidence that he had a legitimate claim to the throne as High King due to the Challenge, then why did he flee?

[Gideon Dragontongue]

He fled because Solitude was an Imperial stronghold, and the Imperials were refusing to respect the right to challenge. Mind you, I'm not trying to defend Ulfric, I simply feel that here he is in the right.

[Giordano]

Ulfric already had a history of being a troublemaker, with his free-worshipping Stormcloak band in Markarth getting the attention of the Dominion. It's no wonder why the Empire didn't support Ulfric's challenge for High King.

It's my speculation that if another Jarl did what Ulfric did, the Empire wouldn't object to the challenge because of the repercussions that would follow: loss of Imperial support, unpopularity of the Empire, etc. But Ulfric was too much of a troublemaker to let him be High King and the Empire intervened...thus, the Skyrim Civil War.

[Daemos Avetorii]

If the stormcloaks would drive out the empire out of skyrim. Then the Thalmor have another "enemy". As long as Skyrim remains part of the empire, the Thalmor can freely go where they please and abduct people. In other views. If the stormcloaks would win, then the empire would lose all interest in Skyrim and would not defend it if the thalmor were to wage war on Skyrim.

Since peace is less costly and more effective for the thalmor, imperial victory is prefered over stormcloak victory because then the thalmor would need to attack skyrim to push on their ban on talos thing.

The Thalmor have as much legitimacy to force the empire to accept the treaty as the empire had legitimacy or lack thereof to conquer all the provinces like skyrim morrowind etc. So it's all fair.
Either way the thalmor win. Regardless who win the war. If the empire wins the thalmor can continue to control them. If the stormcloaks win then the empire is divided and skyrim easy prey, right?

I'm not saying I'm a Thalmor lover, oh no. I just admire their genius and how they planned this all out.

[Gideon Dragontongue]

The Thalmor think they've got all the cards, but they're also not considering the tenacity of humans. The Empire is simply biding its time while it regains the strength to challenge the Dominion, something they may not realize.

[soda popinski]

Has anyone come across anything suggesting it was a mutually agreed upon dual?

If so, that kind of changes things.

Everything I've seen in the game suggests that Stormcloak basically walked in there and killed him, and then ran off.

If it was a commonly accepted nord tradition, im not sure why he needed someone to sacrifice his life to open the gate so that he could make his escape.

[Gideon Dragontongue]

Consider it this way:

Ulfric got in to Solitude.
He challenged Torygg to a duel.
Torygg accepted, having no choice but to accept or be made to look weak.
Torygg was ripped to pieces by Ulfric's Thu'um.
Ulfric made good his escape as Imperial soldiers attempted to arrest him for murdering the king.

[Mr.Argonian]

I reckon that if Ulfric killed him fairly, that is without the use of the Thu'um, he would have a legitimate right to the throne. In my eyes using the Thu'um is cheating. A duel, as I understand it, is using only weapons, no magic, no potions and no help from anyone else. Ulfric didn't follow the rules of the duel, so he broke Nordic tradition, making it a murder.

[Argonanza]

Has anyone come across anything suggesting it was a mutually agreed upon dual?

I have confirmation on this from a very trustworthy source. Though the source is extremely spoiler heavy.

So spoiler heavy, I dare not speak it.

Oh, to heck with it. MAJOR MQ spoiler.

Spoiler:

You meet Torygg in Sovngarde. He tells you he accepted a challenge from Ulfric.

[Gideon Dragontongue]

I reckon that if Ulfric killed him fairly, that is without the use of the Thu'um, he would have a legitimate right to the throne. In my eyes using the Thu'um is cheating. A duel, as I understand it, is using only weapons, no magic, no potions and no help from anyone else. Ulfric didn't follow the rules of the duel, so he broke Nordic tradition, making it a murder.

No, absolutely not. The Thu'um is considered a sacred ability that in ancient times might even have been used as the sole weapons in a duel.

[GoatLiver]

Adding to this if you ask the man himself Ulfric will tell you something along the lines of "it was not the thu'um that killed Torygg but rather my blade piercing his heart". The duel was fully legitimate, there where many witnesses including the court wizard Sybille Stentor who will talk to you about it too, she says something like she feels ashamed she was unable to help. But it just goes to show everyone there respected the rules of the duel yet the Imperials still criminalized Ulfric for it. As far as I am concerned the only murder that took place in Solitude was that of Roggvir, may his soul rest easy in Sovngarde.

[Gideon Dragontongue]

I agree. Roggvir is being executed for assisting in the escape of someone who had not at the time committed any crime.

[soda popinski]

Has anyone come across anything suggesting it was a mutually agreed upon dual?

I have confirmation on this from a very trustworthy source. Though the source is extremely spoiler heavy.

So spoiler heavy, I dare not speak it.

Oh, to heck with it. MAJOR MQ spoiler.

Spoiler:

You meet Torygg in Sovngarde. He tells you he accepted a challenge from Ulfric.

Spoiler:

Interesting, I'll have to look out for him next time I'm there. Are there any other characters that are recognizeable there, besides the 3 who battled Alduin?

[Dark Spark]

Bad things happen. That's what makes it a tragedy. And everyone remembers the tragedies, not the comedies.

[Gideon Dragontongue]

Spoiler:

You meet Torygg in Sovngarde. He tells you he accepted a challenge from Ulfric.

Spoiler:

Interesting, I'll have to look out for him next time I'm there. Are there any other characters that are recognizeable there, besides the 3 who battled Alduin?

Spoiler:

Several Nordic legends, including Hakon One-Eye, Jurgen Wind-Caller, Ysgramor, and an unidentified Arch-Mage. Outside of the mead hall itself, you may see Ulfric and Galmar, if you did the Imperial questline, and Legate Rikke, is you did the Stormcloaks. Kodlak Whitemane will be there somewhere if you've finished the Companions.

[Jeff]

Spoiler:

Interesting, I'll have to look out for him next time I'm there. Are there any other characters that are recognizeable there, besides the 3 who battled Alduin?

Spoiler:

Yes, but it is dependan on what questlines you have completed up to that point.

On the way, you may run into High King Torygg, and you may see heroes such as Kodlak Whitemane, Ulfric Stormcloak, or Legate Rikke, if they had previously died during your journey.

Ninja'd

[Gideon Dragontongue]

I am a ninja. A NINJA PIRATE!

There may be one or two others, but I can't think of them right now.

[Dark Spark]

I wasted twenty seconds of my life on that. Damn you.


Topic? Oh yeah. Ulfric cheated. He wouldn't have to had to explain himself if he hadn't. It's a Nord 'thang.

[Gideon Dragontongue]

How did he cheat? The Thu'um is considered a perfectly valid weapon in such a duel, and I think Torygg just underestimated his opponent.

[Dark Spark]

What makes then Thu'um a 'perfectly valid' weapon? In common duelling etiquette, the person who has been challenged sets down what weapons are to be used in the duel.

Having the challenger establish what weapons are valid is tantamount to premeditated murder.

[Jeff]

If Torygg also had been trained in the Voice, then I could see using the Thu'um as being a Valid Weapon.

Ulfric showed up at a Sword Fight... with a Nuke.