Wheel of Time similarities?

[bushwhacker2k]

For anyone who has read the Wheel of Time series:

A powerful leader of men from the first era dies and his return is prophesied as he will be reincarnated in the third era and he will lead people against a singular powerful dark enemy located at an area filled with monsters...

There's probably more but off the top of my head this seems to apply to both Morrowind and the Wheel of Time

Also from playing Lord of the Rings: The Third Age, I'm led to believe that the first age was when Elrond went against Sauron with the armies of men and mer, and it seems to be the Third Age, judging by the game title.

... Talk about running themes...

[svknight]

There's bound to be some similarities between the Elder Scrolls series in general and other fantasy works. IMO, nothing is really original in the past century. Also, you can't really compare a series of novel from a game. The process in making them is quite different and the people who cater to them are also quite different.

[mulder]

I also think there are lots of similarities, most notably: the Nerevarine is something like the Dragon Reborn, the Dunmer being the Aiel, the Great Houses of Morrowind are involved in a politics game like the Game of Houses in WoT and yeah Dagoth Ur is located in a volcano just like the Dark One.

[dzio]

Oh come on, guys. Every single epic fantasy series (or close enough) has at least one: a) prophecy, b) nomadic tribe, c) character rising from humble beginnings to being a hero, d) political intrigue, e) references to ancient history of that world, f) an "evil" location, which often is a volcano, because volcanos happen to look like a gaping mouth of Hell. You can take any two of them and find a heap of connections...

[Pilaf The Defiler]

I believe it's more accurate to say both these fictions were based on similar things.

MK has admitted to being inspired by multiple esoteric texts from various times in history. I believe many of the same texts and traditions influenced Wheel of Time.

[bushwhacker2k]

I also think there are lots of similarities, most notably: the Nerevarine is something like the Dragon Reborn, the Dunmer being the Aiel, the Great Houses of Morrowind are involved in a politics game like the Game of Houses in WoT and yeah Dagoth Ur is located in a volcano just like the Dark One.

You got it

Oh come on, guys. Every single epic fantasy series (or close enough) has at least one: a) prophecy, b) nomadic tribe, c) character rising from humble beginnings to being a hero, d) political intrigue, e) references to ancient history of that world, f) an "evil" location, which often is a volcano, because volcanos happen to look like a gaping mouth of Hell. You can take any two of them and find a heap of connections...

I think you're overgeneralizing a bit...

Not that you're totally wrong, a lot of what you said can be found all over the fantasy genre: prophecies(not always, but it's not uncommon), humble beginnings -> hero (arguably found almost everywhere, not even sure this would narrow down to the fantasy genre) and an evil location.

It's not like I'm shooting down Morrowind for being crap or anything anyways. I personally believe that iterations of the same substance can be worthwhile if worked into a piece of art, which Morrowind most definitely was.

[dzio]

I love Morrowind, so I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it having things in common with other works of fiction (especially with brilliant works of fiction). But I think you're stretching it - the common elements you've mentioned are vague and broad enough to be a simple consequence of the entire fantasy genre searching the same texts, historical records and traditions for inspiration. And that's not an useful observation, just stating the obvious. It's almost like saying "Hey, I have hands and you have hands! What an amazing coincidence, we're so similar!"

[bushwhacker2k]

I love Morrowind, so I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it having things in common with other works of fiction (especially with brilliant works of fiction). But I think you're stretching it - the common elements you've mentioned are vague and broad enough to be a simple consequence of the entire fantasy genre searching the same texts, historical records and traditions for inspiration. And that's not an useful observation, just stating the obvious. It's almost like saying "Hey, I have hands and you have hands! What an amazing coincidence, we're so similar!"

Er, but what I said was really specific...

What else can you apply "A powerful leader of men from the first era dies and his return is prophesied as he will be reincarnated in the third era and he will lead people against a singular powerful dark enemy located at an area filled with monsters..." to?

[dzio]

All right, this actually is pretty specific. My mini-rant was directed more at Mulder's post than yours, though I still think that the prophecy you're talking about is mostly a result of using the same cultural codes and the logic of the narrative.

For example - the concept of cyclical time is found in many diferent cultures around the world, so the idea of some mythological being or event returning is a natural consequence of that. And when you're dealing with a fantasy world that changes very slowly (in terms of technology, way of life and norms of the society), it makes sense that those memories that "become legend" and later a half-forgotten myth must come from an age so distant, that it actually is a lot different. So - powerful myth skips from 1st to 3rd era of the world. And the "singular powerful dark enemy located at an area filled with monsters" can be found in every other high fantasy story.

Have you ever tried creating a scenario for a tabletop RPG? The chance is that when you come up with something that is your own original idea, someone (or you yourself) will still take look at it and say "You know what, that reminds me a bit of X", where X is one of fantasy classics. That's because every element of that scenario, and of your quote, is something you'd expect to find in a high fantasy setting. The authors are playing with the same set of tropes, combining and recombining them in one of a finite number of ways. Maybe all those pieces being put together in this particular combination is more than a coincidence, but I seriously doubt it was a conscious inspiration and deliberate reference.

[mulder]

Well the Aiel live in the Aiel Waste, which is pretty much very similar to the Ashlands, both of them are xenophobic, they both expect the appearance of a hero that will change their way, both of them have changed from what they originally were (the Aiel abandoned the Way of the Leaf, the Chimer became the Dunmer). And it's not just in Morrowind. I think the Altmer now in Skyrim are very similar to the Seanchan, the Forsaken could be the Daedric Princes, the White Gold Tower in Cyrodiil is important just as the White Tower in Tar Valon.

What I'm trying to say is that there are some similarities between the two and I'm sure many that have read the series feel that way too. The Elder Scrolls is not a copy of the Wheel of Time, but it could have some elements in it.

[bushwhacker2k]

All right, this actually is pretty specific. My mini-rant was directed more at Mulder's post than yours, though I still think that the prophecy you're talking about is mostly a result of using the same cultural codes and the logic of the narrative.

Okay, just wanted to get things straight and it always worries me when I feel like I'm pointing out something notable or interesting and it looks like someone is refusing to listen to me. Glad that's not the case

For example - the concept of cyclical time is found in many diferent cultures around the world, so the idea of some mythological being or event returning is a natural consequence of that. And when you're dealing with a fantasy world that changes very slowly (in terms of technology, way of life and norms of the society), it makes sense that those memories that "become legend" and later a half-forgotten myth must come from an age so distant, that it actually is a lot different. So - powerful myth skips from 1st to 3rd era of the world.

I totally agree, the cyclical time systems, divided into eras, aeons, epochs or ages is a theme used in fantasy (and it's an interesting idea, so why not?). The 1st to 3rd part is the one that seemed to catch my eye the most, along with the reincarnation of someone from age 1 into age 3, it's mostly what sparked this thread. I might just be talking to myself and I'm definitely not arguing but I want to stress that I'm in no way trying to pull down Morrowind or claiming that it copied something else, I'm just saying it's an interesting coincidence.

And the "singular powerful dark enemy located at an area filled with monsters" can be found in every other high fantasy story.

Admittedly I was pretty vague in this line, but it's a bit more particular than that (albeit not at the level of the previous point I made). It's basically a shadowy figure of which very little is known except that he (it?) is powerful and dangerous and representative of great evil. He is located at an area specifically isolated from civilization and in fact a perimeter is set to guard the civilized land from denizens of the area.

Have you ever tried creating a scenario for a tabletop RPG? The chance is that when you come up with something that is your own original idea, someone (or you yourself) will still take look at it and say "You know what, that reminds me a bit of X", where X is one of fantasy classics. That's because every element of that scenario, and of your quote, is something you'd expect to find in a high fantasy setting. The authors are playing with the same set of tropes, combining and recombining them in one of a finite number of ways. Maybe all those pieces being put together in this particular combination is more than a coincidence, but I seriously doubt it was a conscious inspiration and deliberate reference.

I quite agree, Morrowind is much too deep and intricate for me to accuse it of blatantly stealing something.