Unfortunate ESO Retcons (Gripe Thread)

[Minor Edits]

Other breaks from basic Elder Scrolls lore found in ESO:

- They don't know what Elves are called. For some reason they call them Mer instead of Che. They call high elves Altmer instead of Salache, wood elves Bosmer instead of Boiche, and dark elves Dunmer instead of Moriche. (Source: The Wild Elves, Daggerfall and Morrowind)

- Ayleids have had a substantial and well known impact on history, including enslaving the humans who started the first empire. Lore is very clear that they have never had any impact on history in any way. (Source: The Wild Elves, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim)

- Khajiit are actual cat people with multiple forms instead of just being a single race that looks very, very human who legends say were descended from cats. (Source: Arena and Daggerfall)

- Argonians have tails and can't have flowing luxurious hair. (Source: Arena)

- Worst of all, creating a tenth race of humans, the Imperials, that live in Cyrodiil. The lore is quite clear that there are no races indigenous to the Imperial Province, let alone peoples called Colovians and Nibenese. (Source: Daggerfall) Inventing these Imperials was a clear cash grab.

I know it's fun to jump on differences and claim that it's because the game is being made by people who don't give a damn about it, but come on! This isn't the first time that there are changes or lore errors, but this also isn't the worst offender. The changes I listed were clear and inexcusable lore violations that were made by the people who apparently care about the lore, and the setting is better for it.

I'm not saying that there are no changes or that all changes are good. But as someone who saw the drastic change between Daggerfall and Redguard/Morrowind when those changes were fresh and new, I can honestly say that I haven't seen anything in ESO worth a gripe thread.

What changes has ESO made that are as big and inexcusable as those I mentioned above? Or as making Tiber Septim a divine or saying that people were interested recording that it rained for a week after he died but not feeling that his terraforming an entire province was worth mentioning?

I understand the point you're trying to make, but some of your examples are confused and/or off-point.

The novels establish that, lore-wise, there are many different languages and dialects in TES. This is just ignored in the games since Daggerfall for the sake of convenience (I personally just attribute everyone being able to understand each other to magic).

Ayleids have had no impact on history? Wut?

The very premise of ESO leaves it open to criticism, and makes fans on the lookout for errors. And not all the gripes listed here are nitpicking. Bethesda doesn't get passes, but the games they developed are not the focus of this topic.

ESO has apparently abandoned Ebonarm. A deity hasn't been abandoned since Arena, and in that case (Seth), it's not clear whether he has been retconned out or has simply gone unmentioned and faded into obscurity.

The Cyrodiil climate change is an ongoing concern. And, IIRC, Bethesda got chewed out pretty badly for turning Cyrodiil into a boring High Rock remake, so that doesn't really help your argument that we should be taking it easy on Zenimax.

[c3r3a1k1l13r]

just a comment, i would not be surprised if "knights of the nine" started popping around

[CBR JGWRR]

You have played TES games since Morrowind? Most of your list is Bethesda done, not Zenimax, and the Khajiit only have one playable form at the moment, most likely others to come in future paid for DLC.

1 The Khajiit have only ever had one playable form. They just decided to completely ignore the lore and create different forms when they got to Redguard.

2 And yes, I've played all the games. And every one tosses out things that was established before. The whole point is that Bethesda has been happy to throw out entire chunks of lore when it was better for the product they were making. And Zenimax is working with Bethesda on the lore for this game.

3 Are the nit-picking errors worse than your average Elder Scrolls game? Nope.

4 Are the changes as we've come to expect from Zenimax? Nope.

5 So if Bethesda gets a say in lore changes, how are retcons any worse than we've seen before? If it's done due to the limitations of the game, how is it worse than the concessions that Bethesda has made for the same reason (such as Cyrodiil not being a jungle in Oblivion or not exploring Amalexia in Tribunal)? And if it's about oversights of obscure lore, why does them missing it show they don't care and are only in it for the money, unlike Bethesda who misses stuff too?

6 It's about perspective. Not saying that ESO is perfect, but when it comes to lore "issues" they are small potatoes compared to what Bethesda has pulled. And considering I like a lot of the changes Bethesda has pulled, I'm not exactly seeing anything Zenimax does as a bad thing.

1 Actually they've had 2. The human like khajiit and bipedal man sized cat khajiit. Both are just as valid.

2 They don't toss it out with each new game. And Beth is only looking at the overall bits, not smaller stuff.

3 Not really. Bethesda games are at least chronologically consistent.

4 Prior to ESO we couldn't judge - as it is now, there are far too many "Unfortunate ESO Retcons"

5 Because Beth are not looking at every bit. And Cyrodiil not being a jungle is a different kettle of fish.

6 Fact is your entire list from your earlier post is very easily explained - whole reason I questioned whether you had played them - and well, they aren't the examples I would use to try and demonstrate Beth being wrong on their own Lore. And they have been. Just not ESO wrong.

[CBR JGWRR]

The Cyrodiil climate change is an ongoing concern. And, IIRC, Bethesda got chewed out pretty badly for turning Cyrodiil into a boring High Rock remake, so that doesn't really help your argument that we should be taking it easy on Zenimax.

They still get chewed out for that.

[legoless]

just a comment, i would not be surprised if "knights of the nine" started popping around

Thankfully not. They have Knights of the Eight instead.

[Tobias]

[quote="Minor EditsI understand the point you're trying to make, but some of your examples are confused and/or off-point.

The novels establish that, lore-wise, there are many different languages and dialects in TES. This is just ignored in the games since Daggerfall for the sake of convenience (I personally just attribute everyone being able to understand each other to magic).[/quote]

True, though the book in question, The Wild Elves get an edit from Oblivion on which changes elf names back to the famous Mer version. There’s also no indication that these “proper” racial names are meant to be anything but what the races in question call themselves.

Ayleids have had no impact on history? Wut?

From The Wild Elves by Kier-Jo Chorvak (Source: Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim)
“The Ayleids continue to be one of the greatest enigmas of the continent of Tamriel. They seldom appear in the pages of written history in any role, and then only as a strange sight a chronicler stumbles upon before they vanish into the wood. When probable fiction is filtered from common legend, we are left with almost nothing. The mysterious ways of the Ayleids have remained shrouded since before the first era, and may well remain so for thousands of years to come.”

This book was found originally in Daggerfall and has been reproduced in every game since. The only edit to the book was to change “che” elven names to the modern “mer” ones. It is also important to note that, not only do the passage in question appear in every game, but the description of the behaviour of the Ayleids in the modern era matches that described in the Pocket Guide to the Empire 1st Edition.

Note it doesn’t say “after the first era” or “Since the fall of their empire” but makes it clear that they hold no important place.

So, yeah. Until Bethesda tossed it out for no reason when they made Oblivion, Ayleids were never intended to be the enslavers of humanity.

The very premise of ESO leaves it open to criticism, and makes fans on the lookout for errors. And not all the gripes listed here are nitpicking. Bethesda doesn't get passes, but the games they developed are not the focus of this topic.

And I agree with you. The thing is that any mistake on this game gets blown up into proof that “They don’t care at all”.

ESO has apparently abandoned Ebonarm. A deity hasn't been abandoned since Arena, and in that case (Seth), it's not clear whether he has been retconned out or has simply gone unmentioned and faded into obscurity.

Um… Can you point to where they mention Ebonarm in Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim? Because the only references I can find on this sites lore pages are all from Daggerfall. And considering the sheer amount of changes that came after Daggerfall, I think it’s safe to say that Ebonarm was abandoned long before ESO.

The Cyrodiil climate change is an ongoing concern. And, IIRC, Bethesda got chewed out pretty badly for turning Cyrodiil into a boring High Rock remake, so that doesn't really help your argument that we should be taking it easy on Zenimax.

I’m ok with them getting given the same flak as Bethesda. It’s that every lore mistake Zenimax makes gets the same level of hate and rage that Bethesda gets for their big lore issues.

[Tobias]

1 Actually they've had 2. The human like khajiit and bipedal man sized cat khajiit. Both are just as valid.

2 They don't toss it out with each new game. And Beth is only looking at the overall bits, not smaller stuff.

3 Not really. Bethesda games are at least chronologically consistent.

4 Prior to ESO we couldn't judge - as it is now, there are far too many "Unfortunate ESO Retcons"

5 Because Beth are not looking at every bit. And Cyrodiil not being a jungle is a different kettle of fish.

6 Fact is your entire list from your earlier post is very easily explained - whole reason I questioned whether you had played them - and well, they aren't the examples I would use to try and demonstrate Beth being wrong on their own Lore. And they have been. Just not ESO wrong.

1. No, they only had 1 form until Redguard. Them being a multiform race contradicted previous lore that established them as only being distant cousins to great cat predators. You can’t say you are distant cousins when Mom can be a horse sized sabertoothed tiger and sister is a housecat.

2. No… Bethesda tosses out stuff with every game. Greybeards not being gagged, the placement of Windhelm, Cyrodiil’s climate, place of Ayleids in history, name of the elven races, new divine out of no where. I can go on. As for the smaller stuff, I haven’t seen issues worse than anything Bethesda has done.

3. Redguard? ESO takes place in a period we know very, very little about. There’s a lot of room to move in and currently established lore has a lot of grey areas with wiggle room. But again, I’m not saying that they should be given a free pass. Just keep things in context.

4. I meant to say Bethesda, not Zenimax.

5. It does mean that anything that seems to be a huge change is canon though. Small things are to be expected in a game this size and doesn’t imply anymore laziness or malice than we can expect from Bethesda.

6. My point has been that lore has changed and that changes aren’t necessarily bad since it can add to the lore. That any big changes that seem to contradict things are approved, and so aren’t Zenimax being sloppy. That any small changes are either the kind of error that happens in every Elder Scroll game or the ignoring of lore that has been out of the series for a while, like with Ebonarm. That it’s ok to have complaints about lore changes, but that this foaming “Zenimax is lazy and doesn’t care at all” view that gets tossed around is excessive and could just as easily be applied to Bethesda.

[Tobias]

just a comment, i would not be surprised if "knights of the nine" started popping around

Thankfully not. They have Knights of the Eight instead.

That's just lazy BS... IF they're just supposed to be a straight copy of the Knights of the Nine. I'll save judgement until I see the lore attached to them though.

[Minor Edits]

From The Wild Elves by Kier-Jo Chorvak (Source: Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim)
“The Ayleids continue to be one of the greatest enigmas of the continent of Tamriel. They seldom appear in the pages of written history in any role, and then only as a strange sight a chronicler stumbles upon before they vanish into the wood. When probable fiction is filtered from common legend, we are left with almost nothing. The mysterious ways of the Ayleids have remained shrouded since before the first era, and may well remain so for thousands of years to come.”

This book was found originally in Daggerfall and has been reproduced in every game since. The only edit to the book was to change “che” elven names to the modern “mer” ones. It is also important to note that, not only do the passage in question appear in every game, but the description of the behaviour of the Ayleids in the modern era matches that described in the Pocket Guide to the Empire 1st Edition.

They seldom appear in written history. That is not a lore retcon, nor is it incongruous with other parts of the lore, it's simply a nuance. See here. The Ayleids' impact on written history was actively suppressed.

Um… Can you point to where they mention Ebonarm in Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim? Because the only references I can find on this sites lore pages are all from Daggerfall. And considering the sheer amount of changes that came after Daggerfall, I think it’s safe to say that Ebonarm was abandoned long before ESO.

He had not been mentioned since Daggerfall, but we hadn't really been exposed to much Redguard religion since then, so that doesn't mean much. Absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence. Several books reappeared in ESO which haven't been seen since Daggerfall, which reinforces the perception that these things remain presumptively true from game to game. But they actively omitted Ebonarm from a lore book which asserts to be a transcription of a person's inner monologue. They wrote him out of this monologue. There's a big difference there. It may be that Zenimax was operating on Bethesda's guidance when they did this, but that is irrelevant. This is an ESO gripe thread, not a Zenimax gripe thread. And ESO is now apparently contradicting the presumption that Ebonarm is canon. Boo to that.

1. No, they only had 1 form until Redguard. Them being a multiform race contradicted previous lore that established them as only being distant cousins to great cat predators. You can’t say you are distant cousins when Mom can be a horse sized sabertoothed tiger and sister is a housecat.

They are distant cousins of great cat predators, though; that bit of lore is not contradicted in the ensuing games and is indeed reaffirmed in ESO. Maybe I'm missing something, but they didn't really contradict this, they just elaborated upon it.

2. No… Bethesda tosses out stuff with every game. Greybeards not being gagged, the placement of Windhelm, Cyrodiil’s climate, place of Ayleids in history, name of the elven races, new divine out of no where. I can go on. As for the smaller stuff, I haven’t seen issues worse than anything Bethesda has done.

It's not hard to imagine that the Greybeards going gagged could be something which historians had blown out of proportion. I, for one, am certainly willing to roll with "changes" such as this one.

I'm not sure what you mean regarding Windhelm, it has occupied the same basic position in Skyrim since Arena, as far as I know.

6. My point has been that lore has changed and that changes aren’t necessarily bad since it can add to the lore.

It can add to the lore, especially when the fanbase cries out for an explanation. It certainly provides the fans with a legitimate, if perverse, incentive to seek out and emphasize the loose ends. TES lore is something of an interactive process. I don't know if we would have all these bits of lore on the Cyrodiil climate change if the fanbase hadn't gotten their panties in a wad over the changes in the first place. So while some criticisms here are unduly harsh, I agree, it is to be expected.

[legoless]

That's just lazy BS... IF they're just supposed to be a straight copy of the Knights of the Nine. I'll save judgement until I see the lore attached to them though.

As you wish. Whole lotta nothing.

This is an ESO gripe thread, not a Zenimax gripe thread.

I think this is a valid point. Let's try to stick to grumbling.

[SajuukKhar]

Instead of thing we dont like about TESO lore, and for me its a lot, I will say I DID like the Arkay = Xarxes + Orkey = Tu'whacca book.

As well as the book that suggests that White-Gold had something to do with changing Cyrodiil from a jungle into what it is as a reaction to humans taking it over.

[CBR JGWRR]

1. No, they only had 1 form until Redguard. Them being a multiform race contradicted previous lore that established them as only being distant cousins to great cat predators. You can’t say you are distant cousins when Mom can be a horse sized sabertoothed tiger and sister is a housecat.

2. No… Bethesda tosses out stuff with every game. Greybeards not being gagged, the placement of Windhelm, Cyrodiil’s climate, place of Ayleids in history, name of the elven races, new divine out of no where. I can go on. As for the smaller stuff, I haven’t seen issues worse than anything Bethesda has done.

3. Redguard? ESO takes place in a period we know very, very little about. There’s a lot of room to move in and currently established lore has a lot of grey areas with wiggle room. But again, I’m not saying that they should be given a free pass. Just keep things in context.

4. I meant to say Bethesda, not Zenimax.

5. It does mean that anything that seems to be a huge change is canon though. Small things are to be expected in a game this size and doesn’t imply anymore laziness or malice than we can expect from Bethesda.

6. My point has been that lore has changed and that changes aren’t necessarily bad since it can add to the lore. That any big changes that seem to contradict things are approved, and so aren’t Zenimax being sloppy. That any small changes are either the kind of error that happens in every Elder Scroll game or the ignoring of lore that has been out of the series for a while, like with Ebonarm. That it’s ok to have complaints about lore changes, but that this foaming “Zenimax is lazy and doesn’t care at all” view that gets tossed around is excessive and could just as easily be applied to Bethesda.

1 You place far too much emphasis on Redguard, and it doesn't contradict anything about being distant relations to other sorts of cats just because some of the khajiit forms look like said sorts of cats.

2 A) the Greybeards don't appear to be gagged for game reasons, just like there only being 4 plus 1 of them. B) You are picking on Windhelm being out of place? Most of Skyrim is out of place if you accept Arena as the standard - which it isn't, as it was made back when 36 different colours was pushing the limits of home PCs, it simply doesn't compare. Heck, the landscape is randomly generated, you cannot accept that as where stuff should be. C) Cyrodiils climate is a different issue, and like Talos you really need to learn why and what changed. D) Ayleids were systematically removed from history. E) It is said the Eskimo have 17 words for snow and its various forms. Doesn't mean any of the 17 are less valid. F) Talos isn't a Retcon, he's an addition.

3 I said chronologically consistent, not linearly consistent. As for ESO that argument doesn't hold when you consider it is entirely possible for someone alive in the time of ESO to still be alive by the time of Skyrim. In fact, we actually do meet a bloke who was born not long after it who is very, very much alive and just as powerful as ever.

4 And? Beth at least own the IP, it is their series. Zenimax however...

5 I don't consider anything that ESO does which conflicts with Bethesda's games canon, because it isn't Zenimax's place to make a call as to what counts for canon.

6 A) You are making a big assumption there, that Beth are checking the details. B) Ebonarm has been actively written out of TES Lore by ESO, not just being ignored. C) Its Beth's series. They can do what they want. Zenimax however, are not the owners.

[Musicman247]

Please stay on topic. Arguing about Zenimax is not the topic here, changes in lore brought about by ESO is. If you cannot discuss the topic in a civilized manner, or without breaking off tangentially, I would ask that you refrain from replying. Thank you.

[AngryNord]

- Worst of all, creating a tenth race of humans, the Imperials, that live in Cyrodiil. The lore is quite clear that there are no races indigenous to the Imperial Province, let alone peoples called Colovians and Nibenese. (Source: Daggerfall) Inventing these Imperials was a clear cash grab.

The Imperial race was introduced in Redguard, and has been in every TES since.

[Travalanche]

During my time on ESO I've noticed them too but I've totally brushed them off. I got to the point where I just skipped all of the dialogue like 10 hours in. One thing to remember is that Zenimax made it, not Bethesda so I don't think the retcons matter and if they do well... that sucks! But not much we can do about it.

[c3r3a1k1l13r]

One of the things that annoy me about the cyrodill question is how in Skyrim, Heimskr shouts THE WHOLE DAY about Talos and his change to cyrodill, "Let me show you the power of Talos Stormcrown, born of the North, where my breath is long winter. I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you"

(i think someone already said that, don't remember if was in this topic or not, too lazy to search )

[legoless]

During my time on ESO I've noticed them too but I've totally brushed them off. I got to the point where I just skipped all of the dialogue like 10 hours in. One thing to remember is that Zenimax made it, not Bethesda so I don't think the retcons matter and if they do well... that sucks! But not much we can do about it.

I see a lot of people doing this, and I'm not really sure why. The quest design isn't exactly engaging, so you're missing out on most of the game's content by clicking past dialogue.

[Lorenut]

One glaring example of the carelessness with lore comes in the form of tons of ruins not being in the game. Now I know that you could say that it's just game limitations, but still for a game that claims to have put lots of effort into the lore it sure doesn't seem like it.

1 Books that aren't supposed to be around in that time The Last King of the Ayleids, Lusty Argonian maid and more.
2 Cropsford seriously? I'm pretty sure that they had just started making it in Oblivion.
3 Tons of missing ruins, caves etc
4 Cyrodiil being a "transcription error"

I really don't know how they intend to explain half of that.

[Zero_The_Dark]

Well the books are apparently there on purpose and that will be explained eventually so I've heard. The missing ruins and caves could be explained by they haven't been made yet. Keep in mind that this takes place in the second era and oblivion takes place at the end of the third. There is plenty of time for buildings to be built and subsequently abandoned. And the Cyrodiil being a transcription error is an old issue that is from oblivion, there is no point blaming ESO for that. The Cropsford complaint is legit though, I have yet to see a decent explanation for why that settlement exists.

[Lorenut]

Well the books are apparently there on purpose and that will be explained eventually so I've heard. The missing ruins and caves could be explained by they haven't been made yet. Keep in mind that this takes place in the second era and oblivion takes place at the end of the third. There is plenty of time for buildings to be built and subsequently abandoned. And the Cyrodiil being a transcription error is an old issue that is from oblivion, there is no point blaming ESO for that. The Cropsford complaint is legit though, I have yet to see a decent explanation for why that settlement exists.

Ok I'll give you the books, but the ruins cannot be "explained away" most of the ruins in Cyrodiil were Ayleid ruins. The Ayleids are gone by the time of eso meaning the ruins must have been there before eso otherwise they wouldn't be Ayleid ruins. Caves sure that could be explained.

Out of curiosity how is Cyrodiils transcription error an old issue? Zenimax online studios announced that it was a transcription error and I don't remember hearing about it in other games before. Please tell me I honestly don't know.

[legoless]

Missing ruins is just a game limitation, the same way the Imperial City in Oblivion only had 180 people living in it. Can't fault them on that, although admittedly the Iliac Bay zones feel very small in comparison to Daggerfall.

[Zero_The_Dark]

I didn't realize when you said ruins you meant Ayleid ruins, and yea that is a bit annoying but as Legoless said that's partially a game limitation. The Cyrodiil thing has been around since we first saw it in oblivion and it was blatantly not a jungle like it was described as being. I'm not super sure on how old the transcription error explanation has been around for (I was under the impression since skyrim but I may be mistaken). I think it was just more advertised in ESO that could be an explanation of why things are the way they were.

And keep in mind that even though there are some books in ESO saying that it was a transcription error there are also some other books that are arguing against that as an explanation. I can't remember the names of the books but I do believe I read them somewhere here.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

I think that would be discrediting the locals too much. From the (very few) lines of dialogue, it's clear that the term applied to the creatures is 'riekling', and who are we to argue?

This is a tendency of the Nords. They don't micro-manage their categorization of things as much as other races do. Altmer or Imperials, let's say. To them any large sea mammal is a horker. Any small goblinesque humanoid is a Riekling. And large reptile with magical powers is a Dragon. It's just their way. They don't see boundaries where other people do. It's not that they're less intelligent and see no difference - it's just that they don't mark the same importance in the differences.

[Emzi 43]

Just throwing my opinion in here, I don't consider ESO canon, at all. Some kind of weird, warped scenario that Molag Bal might be playing out in Coldharbour perhaps, inventing hundreds of heroes to fight him in a Tamriel pieced together from different time periods (Don't actually take that bit seriously, I'm kidding) all for something to do now that his mace is sitting in a display case in one of the Dovahkiin's many properties. But no, not Canon at all, because of that picture of a lot of players doing a human centipede in a town, can you imagine that in a history book?

[legoless]

But no, not Canon at all, because of that picture of a lot of players doing a human centipede in a town, can you imagine that in a history book?

Can you imagine a great hero bunnyhopping around town to train his acrobatic skills? Just because players can do something absurd in a game doesn't discredit its lore.