On the Casualization of the TES series

[Daring Fieldmajor]

Alright, Skyrim was my first in the series. While it's not my favorite, and it was missing some of the elements I was hoping for after researching the rest of the series, it still is a fantastic game well worth your money. It is Elder Scrolls through and through, and even if the books aren't as good as Morrowind's glorious literature, they're still a treat. Just because changes were made doesn't mean it's an absolutely horrific abomination not worthy of your time.

[CBR JGWRR]

Alright, Skyrim was my first in the series. While it's not my favorite, and it was missing some of the elements I was hoping for after researching the rest of the series, it still is a fantastic game well worth your money. It is Elder Scrolls through and through, and even if the books aren't as good as Morrowind's glorious literature, they're still a treat. Just because changes were made doesn't mean it's an absolutely horrific abomination not worthy of your time.

[udubdawgs]

At the risk of using a cliche: your entire argument is pure opinion. Yes, it's a fact that Skyrim is very much streamlined compared to Morrowind, but it's not a fact that it makes the game any better/worse. Given the ratings it still gets to this day, obviously a [&@%!] of people still really like it. You, personally, might not like it--but that's where, as Musicman was saying, mods come into play. And for Skyrim, there are plenty of damn-good mods that include much of what you've been lamenting about Bethesda removing.

In essence, Bethesda made a relatively fun, excellent game, complex enough for console fans to enjoy, yet still open enough for PC gamers to edit/fix/mod at will. And that's what I and (I believe) Musicman have been trying to explain. If that's still not good enough, then it's a nostalgia problem you're facing, not an actual problem with the game.

better or worse isn't the debate. mod capability for the pc has nothing to do with tes console games.

"fun, excellent game, complex enough for console fans to enjoy" this is a debate worthy to its own thread and something i lightly addressed: bethsoft missed, purposefully imo, the chance to create a hardcore rpg. again, the gaming industry is not anywhere near what it was a decade ago. the newbies and casuals and sales would still have occurred. they wouldn't have even known any better. btw, that line of reasoning is not something that benefits the argument for those that deny the obvious dumbing-down.

as to this nostalgia card you're continuing to play. i don't want to get into it again because i've argued it too many times and your argument is baseless, incorrect and lazyy. nostalgia has nothing to do with all of the easily identifiable hardcore, complex, deep, character-based mechanics and non-casualization aspects of morrowind. the nostalgia talking point is a laughably foolish position to defend.

again, to deny the casualization and trend to action-based rather than character-based mechanics is idiocy. you could start listing all of the "improvement" in skyrim one by one and i can debunk them rather easily, as far as, this argument is concerned. fun and better and enjoyable have nothing to do with it and are irrelevant, though, you'll lose that argument, as well, since, all of the "improvements" can still occur in a hardcore character-based, true rpg/non-player based game.

[POMC S117]

again, to deny the casualization and trend to action-based rather than character-based mechanics is idiocy. you could start listing all of the "improvement" in skyrim one by one and i can debunk them rather easily, as far as, this argument is concerned. fun and better and enjoyable have nothing to do with it and are irrelevant, though, you'll lose that argument, as well, since, all of the "improvements" can still occur in a hardcore character-based, true rpg/non-player based game.

A bit difficult if what is classed as an improvement is a matter of opinion.

[udubdawgs]

So you're blasting a game that you haven't played? It's people like you that make me not want to play Morrowind, ever. Because everyone seems to think that they're always right or that one game is better than another. That's like watching episode 2 and 3 of Star Wars and saying the others are crap. They all roll into one. Same with elder scrolls. And so far you came here to the forums just to try to persuade people to think the way you do.

So if I can give an example of what you're doing.
I've never played Morrowind but I've read plenty about it and it just plain sucks. I've heard Daggerfall is better. And no, haven't played that either.

i'm blasting skyrim because they dumbed it down and have made it a less complex, rich, deep, difficult, mature and character-based game. as well, with the technology it had access too and all the previous games it had reference too, i expected it to be the number one console game ever created. i expected it to build on previous tes and other rpg games. i expected enormous mechanical and in-game creativity.

instead, it discarded, eliminated, streamlined and dumbed-down.

how about this, for all of you who think skyrim hasn't been dumbed-down: start giving me the "improvements" it makes and we'll go from there, lol.

[udubdawgs]

the point was the general direction of the games. not which one is better than another. I cited facts about differences between morrowind and oblivion and I haven't seen anything that seems to contradict that trend continuing with skyrim. I made personal observations. get your panties in a twist if you want cause we're not all TES fanbois on your bandwagon and go on the attack but that doesn't change the facts.

lol, the arguments that those who deny the dumbing-down of skyrim follow the same tired and predictable path. as well, it doesn't even support their opinions and, in fact, supports the others'.

their arguments will always be reduced to saying we are nostalgic and stating opinion, despite, all of the MANY facts to support our case.

Edit

again, to deny the casualization and trend to action-based rather than character-based mechanics is idiocy. you could start listing all of the "improvement" in skyrim one by one and i can debunk them rather easily, as far as, this argument is concerned. fun and better and enjoyable have nothing to do with it and are irrelevant, though, you'll lose that argument, as well, since, all of the "improvements" can still occur in a hardcore character-based, true rpg/non-player based game.

A bit difficult if what is classed as an improvement is a matter of opinion.

lol, fine. let's see who can back up their opinion the best. like i just said, give me these wonderful "improvements" skyrim implemented and i'll tackle them one by one.

i offer this because i know what those improvements are, how few of them there are and how very simplistic and meaningless they are when we're debating the casualization and dumbing-down of skyrim.

[POMC S117]

How can you tackle an opinion? It seems like you're just trying to how much bigger your dick is than everyone else by being the loudest. I don't really see the point in arguing or debating anything. It's not as if you're going to change anyone's mind, is it?

[udubdawgs]

See here's the thing logansrun, to a lot of people, fast travel is preferable to many of things Morrowind made us do. Believe me, I liked the ambiance but after a couple of hours it got really tiring to have to jump through hoops to get places. Fast travel isn't all that bad as its made out to be. Travel options are pretty much semantics when compared to the games quests, plot line, and characters.

I didn't love Oblivion but like I said, that arrow actually went into the bandit, not through him. And also, the fact you're being really really specific about Mark and recall, etc. kinda seems nitpicky, I never quite got the hang of levitation or mark and recall but in the long run it never mattered. There are always ways of getting around. Besides, if you're on PC reducing or getting rid of load screens shouldn't be too hard.

And, you seem to place Morrowind on a pedestal too, there's no point in it. The game had it's flaws like any other game, now I'm not gonna lie that storylines and factions in Morrowind were interesting but it had it's share of bugs too. The only reason it had less than say, Skyrim, is because the technology during it's development was nowhere near as advanced as what Bethy had with Skyrim, or Oblivion for that matter. I'm pretty much going to chalk it up to the fact you prefer Morrowind over the other titles for smaller immersion reasons and call it a day.

fast-travel has nothing to do with my argument about the dumbing-down of skyrim. however, the ELIMINATION of all the wonderful things that morrowind had IS. do you understand the difference? because that is the key. if you don't get that then this debate is worthless.

adding direct control over health, stamina and magicka is fine, but, eliminating attributes is not only the worst decision the tes developers have ever made, but, it reduces complexity, depth, customization, in-game mechanics and gameplay. do you understand how this is an obvious dumbing-down? if you don't then further debate is worthless.

the faction system in morrowind was a great implementation and newvegas did a great job, as well. but, what does skyrim give us? not only no improvement, creativity and rich development, but, instead, it's basic elimination.

btw, talking about mods and p.c.'s has absolutely NO bearing on this debate and, in fact, assists my argument.

Edit

How can you tackle an opinion? It seems like you're just trying to how much bigger your dick is than everyone else by being the loudest. I don't really see the point in arguing or debating anything. It's not as if you're going to change anyone's mind, is it?

lol, and, your response is exactly what happens in this debate, every time, every forum. i'm ready to talk specifics and you want to talk packages.

[POMC S117]

See here's the thing logansrun, to a lot of people, fast travel is preferable to many of things Morrowind made us do. Believe me, I liked the ambiance but after a couple of hours it got really tiring to have to jump through hoops to get places. Fast travel isn't all that bad as its made out to be. Travel options are pretty much semantics when compared to the games quests, plot line, and characters.

I didn't love Oblivion but like I said, that arrow actually went into the bandit, not through him. And also, the fact you're being really really specific about Mark and recall, etc. kinda seems nitpicky, I never quite got the hang of levitation or mark and recall but in the long run it never mattered. There are always ways of getting around. Besides, if you're on PC reducing or getting rid of load screens shouldn't be too hard.

And, you seem to place Morrowind on a pedestal too, there's no point in it. The game had it's flaws like any other game, now I'm not gonna lie that storylines and factions in Morrowind were interesting but it had it's share of bugs too. The only reason it had less than say, Skyrim, is because the technology during it's development was nowhere near as advanced as what Bethy had with Skyrim, or Oblivion for that matter. I'm pretty much going to chalk it up to the fact you prefer Morrowind over the other titles for smaller immersion reasons and call it a day.

fast-travel has nothing to do with my argument about the dumbing-down of skyrim. however, the ELIMINATION of all the wonderful things that morrowind had IS. do you understand the difference? because that is the key. if you don't get that then this debate is worthless..

The debate's worthless anyway. No-one's going to change their mind. No-one's going to join your line of argument or thinking. Most people are quite strong about their views and it's turning into a black vs. white argument.

[logansrun]

*sigh*

ok, here's something I ran across this morning while attempting to help another player in another thread with a mod issue, which I'm no expert, but ...

The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind on a netbook
"One of the best games in the Elder Scrolls series is Morrowind. Unlike Daggerfall, Morrowind has quite good graphics, although you won’t be too pleased if you’ve just come out of Oblivion and immediately played Morrowind. For Oblivion gamers, you’ll probably want to take note that Morrowind is a more difficult game than Oblivion and patience is required more so than in Oblivion."

over a decade later ...

I wonder if a decade from now Skyrim will still be enjoying such accolades? even the fervor for all the "advancements" oblivion allegedly brought to the table and supposedly offered have slowly ebbed into irrelevance and faded into obscurity with all the hype of skyrim.

again, these are the facts.

"I don't care what you compare. armor, weapons, skills, spells, alchemy, enchanting, factions, quests, locations, travel options, etc. you name it and morrowind has all later titles beat hands down in a side by side comparrison."

when these can be reasonably addressed and argued, I might be willing to concede my position, but the fact remains that on any one of these the developer took options off the table.

travel, "well, we don't really need all these, so we'll just take all these and replace them with this" ... *drops horse in front of PC.* ... "there ya go. one-size-fits-all 'fast travel'." completely missing the point that when it comes to RPGing there is no such thing as "one-size-fits-all". it boils down to greed and laziness on the part of the developer under the pretense of "streamlining" for the "casual gamer".

[udubdawgs]

True, but how many of those spells were actually used/useful? I'm not arguing that it wasn't streamlined--it definitely was--but to what end the numerous extra spells actually serve beyond a sense of extra choice? And I do miss the custom-spells.

another perfect topic when discussing the dumbing-down of skyrim: spells.

did you actually try and prove your point by stating that choice and customization are purposeless? lol. i won't even bother to counter that reasoning in an rpg debate.

[Musicman247]

I don't think anyone can deny that Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim are all different games that get different things right. Morrowind has a great complexity and customization options when it comes to playstyle, and magic yet its combat is terrible. Oblivion's combat got a bit better and lost some customization options. Skyrim has greatly improved combat but has lost almost all customization when it comes to magic.

None of them do everything right, none of them are perfect games, and yes there are much more negative things that can be said about each game, but that's not the point of this thread.

The OP started off talking about Skyrim and the casualization of the series, not how much better Morrowind was than Skyrim. Let's stay on the topic of casualization and how it helps or hinders the series.

You have already pointed out how it hinders, so I won't re-state the things you have brought up.

It helps by introducing more people to The Elder Scrolls. As I've stated previously, Skyrim sold more in the first two months than Oblivion had sold in its lifetime. Oblivion outsold Morrowind by a wide margin as well. The more people you can get into the series the better for the developers. After Skyrim's sales Bethsoft can pretty much name its own price for the next ES game, which would give them much more freedom to do what they want.

Also, usubsawgs, please stop double-posting. There is an edit button on the bottom of all your posts. Use it to amend your previous post instead of making a new one. Thanks.

[udubdawgs]

you are incorrect. i and others have swayed many peoples' opinions on other forums. how? because it's backed up with undeniable (eventually, lol) fact.

fast-travel has nothing to do with my argument about the dumbing-down of skyrim. however, the ELIMINATION of all the wonderful things that morrowind had IS. do you understand the difference? because that is the key. if you don't get that then this debate is worthless..[/quote]

The debate's worthless anyway. No-one's going to change their mind. No-one's going to join your line of argument or thinking. Most people are quite strong about their views and it's turning into a black vs. white argument.[/quote]

[udubdawgs]

I don't think anyone can deny that Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim are all different games that get different things right. Morrowind has a great complexity and customization options when it comes to playstyle, and magic yet its combat is terrible. Oblivion's combat got a bit better and lost some customization options. Skyrim has greatly improved combat but has lost almost all customization when it comes to magic.

None of them do everything right, none of them are perfect games, and yes there are much more negative things that can be said about each game, but that's not the point of this thread.

The OP started off talking about Skyrim and the casualization of the series, not how much better Morrowind was than Skyrim. Let's stay on the topic of casualization and how it helps or hinders the series.

You have already pointed out how it hinders, so I won't re-state the things you have brought up.

It helps by introducing more people to The Elder Scrolls. As I've stated previously, Skyrim sold more in the first two months than Oblivion had sold in its lifetime. Oblivion outsold Morrowind by a wide margin as well. The more people you can get into the series the better for the developers. After Skyrim's sales Bethsoft can pretty much name its own price for the next ES game, which would give them much more freedom to do what they want.

Also, usubsawgs, please stop double-posting. There is an edit button on the bottom of all your posts. Use it to amend your previous post instead of making a new one. Thanks.

let's tackle the combat, since, it's the number one hatred/frustration, whatever, lol, of morrowind. it can drive me crazy, as well.

this all comes down to player vs. character-based mechanics. i expected skyrim to improve upon morrowind's and oblivion's combat system. the integration of player and character mechanics. instead, we have pure action. i have discussed many great combat ideas with tons of people that would have combined the two.

that is the obvious casualization of the series and it's huge. combine the combat system with the elimination of attribute (i still can't believe they did that), the redundancy and lack of perk creativity and lack of skill/character requirements and you have a dumbed-downed game.

[logansrun]

I don't think anyone can deny that Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim are all different games that get different things right. Morrowind has a great complexity and customization options when it comes to playstyle, and magic yet its combat is terrible. Oblivion's combat got a bit better and lost some customization options. Skyrim has greatly improved combat but has lost almost all customization when it comes to magic.

Morrowind's combat sysem was based on the old pen and paper "chance to hit" based on skill level and random die roll is what the new generation misses. they weren't part of the old pen-and-paper playstyle so I've heard this repeatedly. "how did I miss? what do you mean I missed?", etc. and the accompanying level of obvious frustration at the lack of insight into this basic and simple staple of RPG play. Oblivion was the first major departure to address the next generation's demands for instant gratification and started the ball rolling in the direction of generic hack-and-slash RPG that I previously mentioned and your own observations allude to, reinforcing my position on the matter.

[Musicman247]

You're both missing the point of this thread. It's not to argue the details of past games versus current games, it's to talk about what is happening to the series and how it is a benefit/detriment. Please stick to the big picture.

[logansrun]

You're both missing the point of this thread. It's not to argue the details of past games versus current games, it's to talk about what is happening to the series and how it is a benefit/detriment. Please stick to the big picture.

you're missing the obvious that the discussion surrounding what is happening to the series and how it is a benefit/detriment is directly related to and tied back to comparing details of past games that comprise the series. you can't have one without the other unless you simply want another mindless, baseless, unfounded, unsubstantiated, fan-based opinion piece.

[udubdawgs]

I don't think anyone can deny that Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim are all different games that get different things right. Morrowind has a great complexity and customization options when it comes to playstyle, and magic yet its combat is terrible. Oblivion's combat got a bit better and lost some customization options. Skyrim has greatly improved combat but has lost almost all customization when it comes to magic.

Morrowind's combat sysem was based on the old pen and paper "chance to hit" based on skill level and random die roll is what the new generation misses. they weren't part of the old pen-and-paper playstyle so I've heard this repeatedly. "how did I miss? what do you mean I missed?", etc. and the accompanying level of obvious frustration at the lack of insight into this basic and simple staple of RPG play. Oblivion was the first major departure to address the next generation's demands for instant gratification and started the ball rolling in the direction of generic hack-and-slash RPG that I previously mentioned and your own observations allude to, reinforcing my position on the matter.

absolutely. and, going back to morrowind from skyrim since my 360 broke, grumble, it is so refreshing to play a true character-based rpg again. it's a huge breath of fresh air. frustrating? heck ya. but, that's its great nature.

therefore, to completely eliminate the depth and customization that the attribute and character-based mechanics is an obvious dumbing-down. as well, the entire soul of my arguments always is the fact that i want: creativity, development, ingenuity and advancement. more depth, more customization, more choices, more options, more difficulty, etc.

[Musicman247]

We've discussed the details for five pages now. Now bring it all together and talk about what benefit/detriment it could be for the series as a whole. Not just from your viewpoint, but from the viewpoint of the developers, new fans, old fans, etc.

If we can't get away from arguing what game is better I'll just lock this.

[logansrun]

the fact that anyone is even attempting to debate the obvious facts presented and put forth in regards to the detrimental effect of a lazy generic "one-size-fits-all" hack-and-slash approach has had on the complexity and creativity traditionally offered to the RPG fans that made them RPG fans in the first place is absurd. RPGs were a niche market to intellectuals that is selling out their traditional fan base for greed and profit. it is no longer a niche market or refuge for intellectuals who enjoy challenging intellectual stimulation, but a generic cookie-cutter mill project for profit.

it's like indy going mainstream and no longer being indy. what's the point?

[udubdawgs]

let me be about as simple as i can to prove, beyond doubt, that skyrim is dumbed-down and it involves character development. something i think we can all agree is, um, lol, slightly important in a rpg.

this is the entire thought process one needs to perform a level-up: use skill, allocate points in health, magic and stamina and possibly pick a perk. that's it. streamlined? oh, for sure, lol. in fact, no meaningful thought, at all.

to not call this a casualization of the series is to deny fact.

to deny, at the least, that this is NOT further advancement or creativity or development, is laughably foolish.

and, think about this, THAT system in skyrim is actually thought of as a welcomed and great improvement. lol.

[Musicman247]

I warned you guys.

Locked.