On the Casualization of the TES series

[Velothi]

This is actually an interesting topic to go on about, found in this video I found.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JweTAhyR4o0

It brings the question of "Casualization of the TES series" at some levels I never actually realized until now.

For example - no matter how hard or you or someone tried, we can't fail quests in Skyrim. Besides dying, can you actually fail one of the companions quests? You're found dishonorable, Farkas dies, and you are forbidden from even going into Jorvaskr?

How about the Mages Guild from indiscriminately killing people, causing a worse name to be cast upon Magi and those who practice Magiks. Causing you to be expelled permanently from the College. (And thus you never got your Doctorate in Conjuration)

Or, as he further mentions, why does Lord Harkon even consider giving a mangy mutt of Hircine the Blessing of Molag Bal? Especially when there is an intense hatred between Vampires and Lycanthropites. It makes as much sense as the Telvanni allowing a Redoran to join their ranks, or a Vampire to join the Tribunal Temple. Debunks the Lore, in place of making it easier for casual gamers to not reload or to not complain. I'd go even so far to where structurally he TES games went awry.

Or even how noone reacts to anything you do. Nords are suppose to have an intense hatred or distrust towards Magi. ..Why are you still talking to Jarls and citizens as if you're Average Jorvik, who has done nothing and will never do anything? Or how when Legate or Super-Stormcloak Man none of the respective factions recognize your status. While for the Companions you are, the binary choice of the game is considered because there's "consequences" to joining them. And even then it's a false statement. I can march into Solitude, with Stormcloak Armor. The only consequence I'll get is that an imperial will talk to me or if I talk to an Imperial guard, they'll ask me of my allegiance. If I say I'm pro-Stormcloak, I'm attacked, if I say otherwise then I'm let go. ..Yet there's no attempt to arrest, to Imperial citizens getting mad, the Jarless won't even get angry if you wear Stormcloak armor right infrot of her.


Gee, the Tolerance of Elisif is vast and Spacious.

And I do appreciate his point on the Journal and Quest system. In that the Journal in Morrowind vanilla is God awful and hard to keep track of. After GOTY, it was more refined. (this being more so after Tribunal) The Journal is improved upon next game...but the quests are more handied down to "let me walk you to the store, sweetie" - assuming the player is a vegetable with no concept of direction, geography or simply translation of communication. Skyrim is even worse to where it /forces/ you to use the markers because there is no other possible way to say find the shrine of Azura or of Boethia or find that Werewolf or go to the Silver Hand hang out.

Made worse with the spit in wound with venomous salt that you can "disable the quest marker", but have no clue of where to go.

What do you guys think of the argument, what is happening to TES, and why we keep trying when we know it's going to happen again an again?

[Dark Spark]

I blame the general degradation of intellectual society. It all started when Steve Urkel dropped his flags and became Stefan.

...but the quests are more handied down to "let me walk you to the store, sweetie" - assuming the player is a vegetable with no concept of direction, geography or simply translation of communication. Skyrim is even worse to where it /forces/ you to use the markers because there is no other possible way to say find the shrine of Azura or of Boethia or find that Werewolf or go to the Silver Hand hang out.

Made worse with the spit in wound with venomous salt that you can "disable the quest marker", but have no clue of where to go...

Oh, don't you even...

[Velothi]

..It's even worse to where Daedric artifacts (such as Savior's Hide) went down 98.2% in value monetary wise.

This means that either there was a whole-lot of inflammation or Daedric artifacts have become so common that they're not valuable anymore.

[Br3admax]

We already have a dumbing down thread. Also the Elder Scrolls has never really let you fail at quest. Ever. Not since Morrowind anyway. Also if I pay twenty damn dollars,(I'll pay ten but I don't want to step on any toes) I want to enjoy the entire dlc. No one should attack you for being pro-Stormcloak, since they don't even do that to pro-Stormcloack NPCs. And wearing Stormcloak armor, if wearing Mythic Dawn robes doesn't get you killed, why would Stormcloak armor. And if you can't find Azura's shirne, which is a giant statue, then there are some problems, especially when they tell you it is near Winterhold. Also, I don't give the best directions, not when I can mark the location on the helpful map of Skyrim you have.

Also, "inflammation", I guess you mean inflation.

[Velothi]

It's near Winterhold.

Somewhere. Over the Mountain. Pass the Singing Dwemer, through the Cave with that Guy, and pass the Treasure-cove with that dragon.

Though a different example could be "find this Talos shrine and place my husbands ashes there" or "find this bandit at this lair."

We already have a dumbing down thread.

where :V

Also yes. Inflation

[Musicman247]

The Dumbing Down Games thread is on page 2 and hasn't had a response since last September, so this thread is fine.

[Kerr]

The video makes some really good points. However I don't see having it on consoles as a problem. Bethesda should really take some pointers from Obsidian. Fallout: New Vegas solves a lot of the issues raised in the video you linked. Factions, ability to kill anyone, ability to fail, value of items etc.

I do think Skyrim was an improvement over Oblivion.

[Mattbott]

casualisation
accessibility
dumbing down
financial necessity
success

pick your term, really

i think Bethesda have compromised remarkable little to preserve the depth/maturity/sophistication/spirit/quality of the games in general, though we all have our own opinions on what can be tweaked

new vegas also implemented hardcore mode which solved a good few "golden oldie" issues -
tbh i was actually quite put off new vegas when i failed quests even tho it was perfectly fine as my character had just taken another route

[SAMIAM]

I love this "This game isn't HARDCORE enough for me. I want to fail quests!" lol

Seriously though I get what you're saying but in looking at my stat sheet, I've found that I've failed lots of quests. Some by choice. The Daedric quests? psh ok let my knightly hero work for these 'demons'. What should bug you is there you CAN fail some quests but you CAN'T fail others. I.E. Boethias Calling - un-failable and that's not even a word. What also falls into this category is the Hermaeus Mora quest of obtaining the blood from all Mer races. But Dagon, Molag Bal, Namira, and Vaermina can all be failed so its like... come on guys... you could at least have the option of back stabbing ALL the Daedric princes. Side note... what really bugs me is the whole Nocturnal thing in the Thieves Guild. There are two people that can have my heroes soul upon his death, Shor or Hircine. Not some babe in a robe who will make me guard a dumb ruin that can kill even mighty heroes who have TGM enabled. (ps. Shes SMOKING hot in that robe. For a girl I mean)

As to the Map Markers found in Oblivion and Skyrim... Honestly thank God for those map markers, I honestly don't know why they didn't include some sort of directional quest finder in Morrowind, especially since every Cave, Daedric Ruin, and Dwarven fortresses were all names that seemed to be exactly the same but in a different spelling and different letters. "Find Asburdal, Go south until you reach Azerbaijan, then find Asnookelvich-tzench and take a left and boom you there" - OK I made those names up but the one mission where I was so lost was finding Azura's Cave on the northern side of Red Mountain. The Journal said something about finding the five finger rock formation... EVERY ROCK ON THE NORTHERN SIDE OF THE ISLAND LOOKED LIKE FINGERS!!!! I kept going south and hitting the Ghost fence so I turned around started over and ended up strolling to Tel Mora, which is across the Water I believe and I don't even remember crossing water...

You can call it DUMBING down, but honestly I'm not a hardcore gamer and proud of that fact. Its more of a User friendly game. So the Casualization- also not a word, is really a marketing ploy to get people to play this game. My Dad who is 56 plays this game and loves it because its so user friendly. So I'd be glad about that fact. The more people that play this game and the more DLC you're going to get.

[Kerr]

Here is another good video about The Elder Scrolls series changing.

Spoiler:

YouTube Link

[Barnission]

Honestly, that's not a very good video, and it seems more focused on making unfunny jokes/remarks (casual players = children) and very broad assumptions (something in the game changed = "dumbing down" no matter what). There are a lot of minor complaints and also completely irrelevant complaints (#7 for example).

As far as some of the things you mentioned, Velothi, about NPC reactions, it really doesn't have anything to do with "casualization" or "dumbing down". I can say with a lot of confidence that nearly everyone who plays games would actually prefer a little bit more realism when it comes to what you mentioned. Since we don't know the reason as to why Bethesda did not implement this, and since the reason can range from programming issues to just simply a lack of them wanting to, I don't think it's right to assume such a negative reason. It hurts the integrity of Bethesda, and eventually you have everyone assuming every little change to the Elder Scrolls is because they want to "casualize" or "dumb down" the series. Now I would agree with you that the reason for not having any cross-faction interaction is most likely because of "casualization", or whatever you want to call it, but I just don't like attributing every change to something so negative, it's not very fair to Bethesda.

Here is another good video about The Elder Scrolls series changing.

Spoiler:

YouTube Link

Thanks for linking that, I actually really liked it. Time to subscribe.

[Frost Mage]

My thoughts? The Elder Scrolls is turning into a more easy to pick up, cleaner approach, just like every other series. It's changing. That's what happens. I have probably enjoyed Skyrim more than any other TES game, so I really can't say that it has changed my thoughts on the series in a negative way. Things are just simpler.

[CreeperX]

[...]
For example - no matter how hard or you or someone tried, we can't fail quests in Skyrim. Besides dying, can you actually fail one of the companions quests? You're found dishonorable, Farkas dies, and you are forbidden from even going into Jorvaskr?

How about the Mages Guild from indiscriminately killing people, causing a worse name to be cast upon Magi and those who practice Magiks. Causing you to be expelled permanently from the College. (And thus you never got your Doctorate in Conjuration) [...]

I second these notions. I actually read an article Skyrim: The Illusion of Choice which pointed out that Skyrim is too afraid to close any doors to the player which results to a situation where there really is no consequences. That our so called choices are actually just an illusion. Not really what I would expect in a roleplaying game. Like the writer of the article stated I doubt that casual gamers will even notice, but those who invest in several characters from an RPG view totally do. It's a fact of life that your choices have consequences. Treating the players like they can't hold any responsibility for their actions takes away re-playing value and the enjoyability of the experience. Because when there's no risk, there's no role to play, and you have to force that role almost entirely by your own imagination. After playing games like the Witcher series where your actions can have long term consequences, this becomes all the more apparent.

[Dohva.]

^^ True, but it seems Bethesda is reaching out to a larger audience as well. Its the kiddie's fault. But seriously, I do wish there were more long-term consequences besides an X mark on your journal. I wish we could have the potential to make a wrong choice and fail. How much of a surprise would it have been to us to actually do something stupid and have the title of Arch-Mage snagged from under our feet? Or if you kill someone then it twists something else around? Etc...but there should be risks and that is perhaps the only thing about Skyrim that bothers me.

[Alnevar Odai]

Unfortunately, I am unsure of which forum heading this would belong. TES General or Skyrim General my apologies if it needs moved.

This is a rhetorical response to this wonderful video by Samyoul Online. The video is quite long and is very well put together. I highly recommend viewing it yourself when you find the time. In case you find yourself unable, or unwilling to watch his 32 minute review of TES franchise games I have highlighted his main points below.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JweTAhyR4o0

Key areas Samyoul believes are key indicators of streamlining, and appealing to the casual/ mainstream/ console gamers. While he acknowledges that there are other areas that the franchise has streamlined and areas that the games themselves have improved, he specifically addresses these elements simply from a gameplay perspective with minimal opinionated material. Needless to say, I am very impressed with his review. That being said, I believe that any point that can be made, can be refuted. In the interest of seeking truth, I offer the following:

07:48 1) You Can't Fail - Introduction
The games have simplified to a system where the player cannot fail beyond death. The few instances where you can have no repercussion (see 1b and 1c)

08:09 1a) Important People Can't Die
Story NPCs and NPCs that would generally result in an altered gameplay experience that BGS believes would be unsavory are made immortal. Hand holding and lack of consequences are major implements.

09:46 1b) NPCs Can't Be Offended
Slaughter Dawnstar after helping 5 people. Become thane. Self explanatory.

10:14 1c) You Can't Fail Quests
Kill the person you are meant to intimidate (companions radiant quest), still get paid and still get promoted to the circle.
10:53 1) You Can't Fail - Conclusion

11:13 2) Faction Memberships Have No Consequences
* I will argue this point, but in general, yes, there are fewer consequences .

14:20 3) Choices Have Little Impact on The World
* I will argue this, but in general, I agree.

15:41 4) Quest and Journal Systems
VERY well written and explained emphasis on this point *MUST WATCH*

20:32 5) Reduced NPC Conversations
Self explanatory. Despite a friend and radiant system that is well fleshed out, there are very few and very brief interactions with characters both important and unessential. Very rarely (dawnguard as the exception) do you have fleshed out dialogue with an NPC.

23:13 6) Oversimplified Puzzles
Brain rattling, need the UESP style riddles vs "the answer is on the claw idiot".

26:53 7) Reduced Item Values
Could be argued along side the broken economy in Skyrim and Oblivion, however Samyoul did not go there.

----------------------------

I am VERY interested in your opinions on these points as well as some of your own.

My hope is to actually have Samyoul respond on the UESP with regard to these points.


Below are my collective opinions on these discussion points as well as a few of my own.

Spoiler:

Firstly, allow me to say that I enjoyed the professionalism of the video, and I believe that many of the points were well developed, valid and strong arguments.

I, like many who traffic the UESP, consider myself a lore buff and an avid TES junkie. While my knowledge base is considerable, it is far from perfect and leagues away from the best. That said, I have played countless hours of TES games for the last 11 years and wholly believe that they are an integral aspect of my life, and unfortunately children/ casual gamers are not given the opportunity to discover themselves in a world of choices and situations that one might not regularly be exposed to in real life as I have. And I believe that these tough choices are what ended up making TES games so interesting. And I believe that tough choices are what truly have been eliminated from the franchise. I have played TES 3-5 and FO3 on both console (Xbox and Xbox360) and PC (although controller preferred, which was addressed in Samyoul's video). Samyoul's video he directly compares TESIII: Morrowind to TESV: Skyrim since he believes that this decade has yielded the main acceleration in streamlining the series which cannot be argued as that is perceived individually, although I generally agree.

I believe that all 7 of Samyoul's (I hope you don't mind my abbreviating as Sam) points fall under hard choices.

1) You Can't Fail 1a) Important People Can't Die 1b) NPCs Can't Be Offended 1c) You Can't Fail Quests
Failure includes many development scenarios: time decisiveness, self preservation, resource allocation, leveling systems, replayability, multiroute environments, playstyle favoritism, and the "take nothing away from the player" approach discussed by Todd Howard.

These are all choices that were previously made in TES3 and prior games. Do you want the rare armor, or do you want to complete the questlines associated with the character? Do you want to make friends with some clans before others? Am I going to be a mage or a warrior, perhaps a thief? What skills matter to me? These are all tough choices that have been removed from the series. And for their own reasons.
Sure, it is a pain to reload a game after killing an essential NPC when it took you hours to get where you are. But what gets forgotten is the cannon of the game. Very little is discussed about the player's exploits in Morrowind in later games in the series. Almost no lore can be certain because the player had so many choices. It was shocking when Master Neloth was in DB DLC when I am sure there are at least 2 quests where you are required to kill him in Morrowind's story. Oblivion "dumbed" this area down, I believe for both ease of frustration and for the sustainability of storywriting. In Skyrim we see a plethora of nods at TESIV and history the character was involved in. Had the stories not been explicit, and choices predetermined we surely would be seeing more retcon than we see even now. In TESIII the only choice the player couldnt make was whether or not to stop Dagoth Ur, and that is the only story we really hear about. In oblivion and DG DLC and DB DLC we see nods at Jiub and Bloodmoon locations, but in general there are few stories told about the Nerevarine and those are simple statements. The COC, the guilds he was involved in and even the Mad God himself are all referenced in some way.
NPC's are offended, but only when you kill kin. However even killing the warmaiden wont stop her husband from making a quick buck off me. Choices should have consequences beyond general dialogue, but again this reverts to Todd's main statement from which the game was founded. NPCs cant be offended because there are so many strung along the story quests. Random Encounters and quests particularly make NPC interactions complicated, but also held the most potential for deep NPC interaction.

Failing quests is a big deal for cinematic storylines that Oblivion and Skyrim had. Especially the boss and final battles. These scenes were made to be epic, awe inspiring and made for the casual player prone to rage quits. You only feel awesome when you experience it for the first time. This falls into the division between core and hardcore gamers. A core gamer/ achievement hunter/ game reviewer/ game renter/ buy and return gamer doesnt exist in the PC universe, it is illegal in many states. This is why I believe story missions are short, easy, and lack development. I also believe that is why they are visually inspiring, action oriented, and ego satisfying. The real joys lay in the exploration of the world. Hard opponents, grueling and exhausting dungeons, interesting items and areas, deep stories and character development, treasure maps, recognition of lore and referencing original games (Mara's Tear), the book series (sleeping tree), and occasionally the spinoffs (DB Neloth's staff quests). The paths to the objectives are short and beautiful in stories, long and challenging in adventure.


2) Faction Memberships Have No Consequences
Again, half true. To specify there are no relational consequences for joining any faction outside of the civil war. However, random encounters, player privileges and dialogue are affected by memberships. These are most prevalent in the TG, as you continue through the main and DB quests your relationships in the thieves guild grow apparent as it is constantly referenced. There are a few other conversation gems that can be discovered if you are a werewolf or vampire in the DB. However, to call these consequential and not just side effects or flavor elements is debatable. You never need to kill thieves, or slay mages, or hunt werewolves as quest missions, and you wouldn't be able to due to their essential nature. People never look at you sideways, or have altered dispositions, or deny you privileges based on your choices.

3) Choices Have Little Impact on The World
Again, mostly true. There are side effects, but in general few things happen. I believe that Oblivion was actually the high point of this situation. Closing gates and proceeding through the story completely changed the landscape and the manner in which the player interacted with it. Statues were resurrected and buildings destroyed. Factions crippled and others redefined by the player's choices.
In Skyrim there exists environmental damage as a result of the faction war, guards change, dialogue changes, and history is defined by clear sets of actions that the player has little choice in. In Morrowind I cannot think of too many choices outside of factions that alter much if anything. You can construct and massacre towns, build a shrine to Malacath and stop the blight storms. The fort is attacked, you can build a town, and you can control the life of a company in bloodmoon, and you can undermine the false gods in Tribunal. These are great on paper, but in terms of "paper feats" the Dragonborn stops the world eater, harnesses the power of the Thu'um, changes the history of an entire people, wields the power of the elder scrolls and defines the manifestation of power through vampirism or defeating the first dragonborn.

4) Quest and Journal Systems
I have absolutely no arguments. This was perfectly addressed. Again though, this removes a hard choice the player would have to make. Do it now, or risk the quest being lost in idle pages. Make the player remember people and places, or show them the way. In my opinion, they didnt need both a guide arrow and clairvoyance. I do like the compass however. That was one thing I wished they would improve from Morrowind and they did.

5) Reduced NPC Conversations
Keep in mind that Morrowind did have voice acting, barely, and Arena had actual acting. The difference is the passage of time. Now in Skyrim time continues despite conversation. People come and go as they would realistically. This is a trait that I enjoy about Skyrim. You get the feeling of wasting someone's time. That being said, I do miss the length of NPC dialogue available in Morrowind, but it comes down again to tough choices. Do I waste time buttering up this person, or do I try to figure it out on my own. How much do I really care about the rats eating your pillows? Just point me towards them and give me my money. There were some points where the dialogue in Morrowind seemed unrealistically drawn out and unnecessary for the situation. I think a happy medium is in order, definitely more than Skyrim. Somewhere along Serana's dialogue path for story characters seems almost necessary especially compared to Skjor. "Hmm, I kill silverhand because I am grieving him? The guy I only talked to in order to become a werewolf? Oh, yeah I guess."

6) Oversimplified Puzzles
YES. Every one a lever, column or door puzzle where all they really are is a waste of time. However, from a lore perspective the locks were made to keep things locked in, not locked out. Oblivion only had a handful of decent puzzles as mentioned by Sam, but Morrowind was how I was introduced to the UESP wiki. As a 10-12 yr old many of those puzzles were deep and hard, but I believe they have made me a challenging thinker as a result. Hard choices: Guess and check. Risk failure. Move on. All gone.

7) Reduced Item Values
Again, I believe the economy is broken just like every political analyst on TV. Also like them, I am not sure about a solution.
The symbolic representation of hard work being placed in the value of material items discovered on the player's adventure is a cornerstone of the TES series. In previous games rare and powerful things were hard to acquire, not necessarily hard to come by. In Oblivion and Skyrim the difficulty of obtaining items still plays a role in its value, but there exists the problem. Deadric quests find you in Skyrim. Rumors, mourning family members in an iconic location, couriers, wanderers, the plagued, fighters, magic orbs and talking dogs seek you out and call you to their master's bidding. The only examples that don't were thrown into the story quests. There is absolutely no difficulty or value in finding these artifacts with the exception of Volendrung which is the most interactive (good hammer, good story, rough fight and world disposition consequences). Befitting their difficulty in acquiring them, these artifacts have limited capability and limited retail value. In Oblivion, a little hunting had to be done, but there was a topic for nearly all deadric quests. Morrowind deadric quests were difficult, hard to come by and worth the effort. Again, hard choices: Do I want the achievement? Is it worth my time? If I dont like it can I get rid of it? Where am I supposed to put this thing? Will I ever use it?

Thanks for reading!

[SajuukKhar]

Ohh god, this video........ ugh..... Most of his points are stupid. Its too early for me to do this, ill come back later and post why they are stupid, but they are.

[soda popinski]

Some of his points about dumbing it down might be valid, but on the other hand if Beth put in everything that fans wanted to be in the game, it would be on 3 discs and take 10 years to make.

People complain about the guilds being too short, but there are way more side quests in skyrim than there are in oblivion.

People complain about the NPCs not having as much dialogue as they might want, but again, its a disc space issue.

Etc, etc. I understand people like that video's author loved morrowind, but they're not going to remake it. Stick to mods for that game if everything else doesn't live up to your standards

[Da_BossMaN69]

I'm going to take a shot in the dark here, but I've been on this thread for a year or two now, and have come to know that when people say that :current TES game: is dumbed down, they more often than not (which appears to be the case here) mean: "Morrowind w@Z teh B3ST, N S0 c0mplecateed n orignal!!!11".

Don't care to watch this guy's video so if my following points are wrong, call me out on them, so here we go:

1) Gameplay
-If this guy is trying to make the argument that gameplay is too simple now, then he can jump off a roof for all I care. Combat is easily the crux of these games, deny it all you want, you take out combat entirely, and I don't just mean melee, the game becomes nothing more than a medieval sim, and I can assure you that would be worst game.

Combat in Skyrim is a leap over Oblivion and Morrowind. How? First these games are not made to be RPG's, in the classical sense. Combat isn't decided by numbers and a roll of the dice it's now skill. What these games strive for is realism. How realistic is it, that a perfectly landed hit, misses? Did we take out thrust, slash, etc from Morrowind. Yes, did it detract from the gameplay? No. Because all the moves are decided by the Players skill.

I have killed Giants and Frost trolls at level 1-4, sure it took time, but it was possible thanks to the improvements in gameplay. Enemies now have openings and pattern's, their reactions are more realistic. Smack some one in the face with a hammer, they flinch leaving them open for a second hit. Block a hit, they fall back from the blow, and the parry is a huge improvement to the system. It's the set up to the big blows.

Remember in Oblivion where we would sometimes literally just exchange blows with each other. I do. Every time I'd fight an NPC, all that happened was that I just kept mashing the right trigger and he kept hitting me, and eventually one of us would lose health before the other. That was combat in Oblivion.

Sure you could block and they would be staggered or flinch, but with in the next second they'd hit back, act as if nothing happened. Land a powerful hit, they barely react to it. And my favorite the swing and run, Enemies would just constantly swing their swords while they ran after you, blades flailing through the air, desperately trying to land a hit.

Sprint, another huge improvement in Skyrim, now dodging is possible. With a short burst of speed you can move out of harms way if you keep your distance and anticipate an attack and if done properly leaves them exposed. Don't believe me? Works every time with giants and trolls after their big power hit, same goes for NPC's.

And please, magic far more tactical now then in Oblivion, I'd write more, but I'm wasting my time. If anyone disagrees with me give me your points and I'll respond but for now this is all I'll say.

[Alnevar Odai]

1) Gameplay
Combat is easily the crux [early] games, deny it all you want, you take out combat entirely, and I don't just mean melee, the game becomes nothing more than a medieval sim, and I can assure you that would be worst game.

He agreed entirely with you, and enjoys Skyrim and Oblivion completely just as much as the first 3 and the side series games. He isnt making this argument at all.

The rest of what you said was related to what is quoted.

Samyoul was VERY professional, and he doesnt think Morrowind was the perfect game. And he doesnt attack Oblivion and Skyrim, instead he mentions how the games have clear and needed forward strides that are improving the series. However, that said, the main point of the video involves the clearly detrimental and downright insulting nature of certain streamlined systems. The systems were highlighted briefly by me in the original post.

No more shots in the dark now

[Yaije]

And please, magic far more tactical now then in Oblivion, I'd write more, but I'm wasting my time. If anyone disagrees with me give me your points and I'll respond but for now this is all I'll say.

Is that "more tactical" as in requiring more thinking to make it work? I'll agree on that bit cause it's not at all as clear how you do that in Skyrim.

I can't see the skyrim spell list being anywhere near as versatile as previous games though. Can't tailor up a list of touch/ranged/aoe effects for any situation, never mind the disappearance of more than half the effects (some now only available via poisons). I honestly started feeling like Skyrim Magic was as bland as Morrowinds melee combat.

Spoiler:

especially after level 20-30 depending on how fast I leveled up certain skills.

Also, what's this I hear about no proper dodging in oblivion. Wasn't it the perk of reaching 50 acrobatics?

[Musicman247]

Threads merged.

[Da_BossMaN69]

@Odai: Well then I'm wrong and maybe I will take a look into this guy's video. I just didn't want to watch another "Morrowind is the best" video, because personally I don't see the allure in the game, just too old for me and I simply chalk it up to Nostalgia.

@Yaije:
Agree completely about the lack of spells, but disagree with you on that making it less tactical.

For starters, the elements actually mean something now, and are no longer just weaknesses to certain enemies with certain resistances. They all have a role now, Fire is the maximum damage element, it provides a bonus lasting burn effect that allows you to get in a good hit, retreat and let the burns continue to do damage, Good for all types of enemies, save for the obvious.

Frost, pure Melee repellent. Blast any charging warrior or monster with a frost spell, and you'll cut their speed in half giving you the advantage, combine this with the high ground (or sheer distance) and it's a guaranteed win. Plus with the fatigue draining aspect, you can simply blast enemies with cheap frost spells to simply take the edge out of their bite to allow companions or summons a better chance of surviving.

Shock, not only do you get the benefit of draining their magicka, but you also have a long range fast firing spell. Compare the speeds of fire, frost, and lightning spells and it's clear which is fastest (and accurate at that).

You can also plan ahead now of fights, much better than in Oblivion. Use a 'detect life' spell to find your next fight, put down the appropriate rune, cast your armor spell, let your magicka refill and start the fight.

Also with a high enough level in conjuration, you can easily neutralize the effectiveness of enemies magick. Simply cast the appropriate Atronach to their most common element/spell type.

So a quick example.

Find yourself against a vampire master.Keep your distance to learn his pattern, notice he uses frost, summon a Frost atronach, back you distance, blast him with Frost spells to lessen his melee ability (to no harm to your summon). And use a fire rune (his weakness) between the two of you as assurance.

[Yaije]

Also with a high enough level in conjuration, you can easily neutralize the effectiveness of enemies magick. Simply cast the appropriate Atronach to their most common element/spell type.Summon Dremora Lord

/fix't The strength scaling of summoned/raised units in skyrim doesn't really favor the actual atronachs in most of the situations after awhile Storm ones are good against dragons that don't want to stay on the ground though.

So a quick example.

Find yourself against a vampire master.Keep your distance to learn his pattern, notice he uses frost, summon a Frost atronach, back you distance, blast him with Frost spells to lessen his melee ability (to no harm to your summon). And use a fire rune (his weakness) between the two of you as assurance.

You wouldn't hinder the melee capability as their stamina damage would be minimal as they tend to have passive frost resistance of 50% for being a vampire. 85% if Nord, 75% if breton. Also if Dunmer they'd have no weakness to fire at all.

Really, your examples show destructionbeing able to be used more tactically, not magic as a whole.

[Da_BossMaN69]

No the point of Atronachs is not utilizing them as heavy soldiers, but meat shields. Simply direct the enemies attention elsewhere. And a Dremora Lord is not king, I've had em been slaughtered outright when faced against Forsworn Ravagers and Archmages.

The Atronach will simply not take damage from their element, so it forces them to melee, and most mages can't swing a weapon for their lives, which gives me the advantage over them.

And to be honest, as a Battle mage, I only use three of the five schools. But each fill a role, Alteration is pure defense, while Conjuration is support, and Destruction is offense.

I mean sure maybe against a vampire frost isn't as good, but against bandits and mercenaries it's perfect.

[Yaije]

*sigh* again you're not proving to me that skyrim magic is more tactical than previous games. I only see it as requiring a greater deal of using tactics to function. I, for one, don't see how making half the useful effects present in other games passive perks or tied to weak destruction spells makes the game "more tactical". IMO you'd need to actually have more tactics available.

IN fact bringing up alteration and it's use for defense only goes to show further that it's getting dumbed down. alteration went from bending the laws of physics like CG boobs, to +armor and paralyze....