On the Casualization of the TES series

[logansrun]

c'mon, you're citing a particularly small segement of speed run players. that's not the point of levitate, at least not for me. that's just a straw man to dismiss and minimize the point. musicman asked so I'm just putting it out there. it's late and I'm getting tired so I don't feel like formatting all the quotes, but this is how it was put to my points.

"And yes, those are the kinds of things that should be discussed. I'm not saying the series hasn't gone through a bit of casualization. I agree. But does that mean the games are worse for it? I don't think so."

a "bit" of casualization? I think that's understating the facts.

"I've already agreed to your points. Why don't you address mine? Is the game less fun to play because of the changes? What's wrong with letting the modding community get in on the action of creating and refining content for certain sections of the audience?"

because as I stated "no mod can fix nonexistant game mechanics."

"basically, to answer your primary point, yes. oblivion was less fun than morrowind. why? lack of levitation, intervention, mark and recall. I loved it and missed it dearly in oblivion. the oblivion gates were a chore more than fun lugging loot to and fro. in morrowind that was rarely if ever an issue. what about one of the chief criticisms of skyrim? the addition of crafting to the point that you no longer need to quest when you can custom craft and hand make the most powerful items in the game. certainly not the case with morrowind and I can list scores of examples of magic items and quest rewards that were totally unmanageable no matter what you tried. aryon's dominator and aryon's helper just to name a couple, not to mention many of the relics, most of which got likewise nerfed in oblivion."

travel options, etc. all had a significant impact on gameplay from my perspective. wolf mentioned fast travel, but I already pointed out the flaw in that argument. you couldn't fast travel in oblivion gates. once you were there, you were there for the duration and in most cases, seen one, seen 'em all. it made oblivion a royal pain in the arse, personally. no intervention, no mark or recall. sure, you could fast travel to and from an oblivion gate but inside oblivion ... "oh here we go again" ...

sorry, you don't get to raise a point and then simply brush or blow off, dismiss and minimize legitimate criticisms. every point was evenly addressed and yet there are no valid rebuttals. sorry, "modding" can't and doesn't cover it. at least not where the game mechanics are concerned. no amount of modding is going to restore the options that were available in morrowind that were sunsequently excluded. you can dismiss it as personally insignificant if you want but if you ask other players if it was detrimental to the franchise in terms of their gaming experience and they respond with an affirmative, then at least have the common courtesy and decency to acknowledge that the changes weren't necessarily in the best interest of the gaming community as a whole.

like I said, I still to this day play Morrowind. I have almost no interest whatsoever in revisiting oblivion and I have yet to play skyrim and frankly I'm not sure I even care. I've read plenty of complaints and criticisms about things that are just as broke in skyrim as they were in either of the two previous titles to the point that my interest has significantly waned, so no, I'm not convinced the direction the franchise is going in is actually in the best interest of the gaming community. anybody can develop and produce a flashy mediocre game. that's not what initially got me into TES.

[House of the Wolf]

At the risk of using a cliche: your entire argument is pure opinion. Yes, it's a fact that Skyrim is very much streamlined compared to Morrowind, but it's not a fact that it makes the game any better/worse. Given the ratings it still gets to this day, obviously a [&@%!]-ton of people still really like it. You, personally, might not like it--but that's where, as Musicman was saying, mods come into play. And for Skyrim, there are plenty of damn-good mods that include much of what you've been lamenting about Bethesda removing.

In essence, Bethesda made a relatively fun, excellent game, complex enough for console fans to enjoy, yet still open enough for PC gamers to edit/fix/mod at will. And that's what I and (I believe) Musicman have been trying to explain. If that's still not good enough, then it's a nostalgia problem you're facing, not an actual problem with the game.

[logansrun]

at the risk of pointing out the obvious again, that's what was asked. my opinion. what you missed are the facts I used to support my argument and my opinion. you can dismiss my opinion all you want but the facts still stand. and you keep parroting the "mods" aspect when we've already established that the mods and modding community can't cover everything that was excluded in terms of game mechanics so to keep trying to fall back on that is disingenuous at best.

"If that's still not good enough, then it's a nostalgia problem you're facing, not an actual problem with the game."

false. when you can point me to a mod that replaces levitation, and the missing spells and fixes the enchanting back to what you had in morrowind, I might be willing to concede the point, but until then it just seems to be someone blowing smoke and trying to convince me it's sunshine.

[ZackyZombify]

So you're blasting a game that you haven't played? It's people like you that make me not want to play Morrowind, ever. Because everyone seems to think that they're always right or that one game is better than another. That's like watching episode 2 and 3 of Star Wars and saying the others are crap. They all roll into one. Same with elder scrolls. And so far you came here to the forums just to try to persuade people to think the way you do.

So if I can give an example of what you're doing.
I've never played Morrowind but I've read plenty about it and it just plain sucks. I've heard Daggerfall is better. And no, haven't played that either.

[logansrun]

the point was the general direction of the games. not which one is better than another. I cited facts about differences between morrowind and oblivion and I haven't seen anything that seems to contradict that trend continuing with skyrim. I made personal observations. get your panties in a twist if you want cause we're not all TES fanbois on your bandwagon and go on the attack but that doesn't change the facts.

[Musicman247]

So you're not even talking about Skyrim since you haven't even played it. Nice.

I'll concede that the omissions are decried by a small segment of the gaming population, and for them they were not the right move to make. But they are by no means a majority. I mean look at this thread as a sample of TES gamers. There's basically only two who are making a big deal out of this while the rest of us are just enjoying what we have.

On the point of Oblivion gates, there's really only two you have to go in during the entire game: the first at Kvatch and the mega gate at Bruma, so I'm not sure why you're complaining about an optional part of the game.

Mods have added Mark and Recall as well as Levitation.

Morrowind is still played by a lot of people. We even have a Morrowind Subforum which I've seen you in! Keep playing!

[Derp53]

But there were no facts logansrun, just you lambasting Skyrim and Oblivion for not having the same level of depth as Morrowind. And to be fair, Morrowind did have it's ups, but it had it's downsides as well, quite a few actually. Anyhow, Skyrim and Oblivion are actually able to keep me playing without having me throwing my controller at the wall because my arrow went through the bandit instead of into him. Also, nobody said anything about being a fanboy, which mind you, is pretty much an insult.

[House of the Wolf]

^ Huh..good catch. I missed that, ZZ.


Anyhow, your entire approach to this issue has been that "I'm right, your wrong, and you're stupid for not agreeing with me." Granted, we've all, on this forum, done that at one point or another. But it's a bloody video game which has been both critically-acclaimed and received a positive mark from 95% of gamers who bothered to rate it. I haven't once said that you were wrong in your opinion--I personally miss much of what TESIII offered--but rather I've tried to show you why you aren't exactly right.

Let's take leveling: nearly everyone complained about the leveling systems in TESIII and TESIV because it was either too convoluted or too easy to exploit. So, to alleviate that, they streamlined the leveling system. Did I completely like it? No; I'd have enjoyed a class-based system 10x better, but it still works well-enough that it doesn't make me hate the game. In fact, the previously-limited perk points available made planning your builds ahead of time vital. (just using this as an example)

the point was the general direction of the games. not which one is better than another. I cited facts about differences between morrowind and oblivion and I haven't seen anything that seems to contradict that trend continuing with skyrim. I made personal observations. get your panties in a twist if you want cause we're not all TES fanbois on your bandwagon and go on the attack but that doesn't change the facts.

at the risk of pointing out the obvious again, that's what was asked. my opinion.

Nice.

[logansrun]

I'm talking about the point and subject of this thread. mods for skyrim. how about oblivion?

and these are the facts I was referring to.

"ok, how about travel options just for one example?"

"we went from several modes of travel over a vast and complex network in Morrowind including ..."

boat service
silt strider service
propylon index chambers
mage guild guides
Intervention (almsivi for nearest temple and divine for nearest IC shrine)
Mark and Recall
Levitation
overland (foot)
swimming/water walking

to Oblivion's ...

overland (foot or horse)
fast travel (foot or horse)
swimming/water walking

and these facts ...

"along the subject of this thread, I've already cited several examples of exactly what we've been discussing and it was barely even acknowledged. you rejected dawgs examples so I gave you examples just of travel options they nerfed, not to mention content like I pointed out the Imperial city in oblivion is roughly comparable to morrowind's tribunal expansion. don't even attempt to argue that morrowind didn't have more of both complexity and depth. we can compare almost any aspect for clear examples. how about factions and faction questlines?"

and these facts ...

"basically, to answer your primary point, yes. oblivion was less fun than morrowind. why? lack of levitation, intervention, mark and recall. I loved it and missed it dearly in oblivion. the oblivion gates were a chore more than fun lugging loot to and fro. in morrowind that was rarely if ever an issue. what about one of the chief criticisms of skyrim? the addition of crafting to the point that you no longer need to quest when you can custom craft and hand make the most powerful items in the game. certainly not the case with morrowind and I can list scores of examples of magic items and quest rewards that were totally unmanageable no matter what you tried. aryon's dominator and aryon's helper just to name a couple, not to mention many of the relics, most of which got likewise nerfed in oblivion. no mod can fix nonexistant game mechanics."

and these facts ...

"no amount of modding can restore levitation to my knowledge. THAT is what broke oblivion for me. another prime example that I dreaded in oblivion. nerfed enchanting. many spell effects weren't available for enchanting and only certain ones could go on certain items. the default enchanted mage item became a staff. getting lower leveled gear that was non upgradeable as you leveled. about the only exception was the knights of the nine gear that they fixed through the expansion to be able to level with the PC. leveled sigil stone enchantments, etc. all just completely broke the game for me as a player coming from morrowind."

no, my problem is everyone's refusal to acknowledge basic facts that should be reasonably obvious. plus, like I said, it's getting late and I'm tired and tired of arguing and being attacked for the points I raised with straw man arguments. I started this cordially and have tried to be agreeable but when people keep insisting I'm wrong when the facts clearly support my contention, yes, I take exception.

[Derp53]

See here's the thing logansrun, to a lot of people, fast travel is preferable to many of things Morrowind made us do. Believe me, I liked the ambiance but after a couple of hours it got really tiring to have to jump through hoops to get places. Fast travel isn't all that bad as its made out to be. Travel options are pretty much semantics when compared to the games quests, plot line, and characters.

I didn't love Oblivion but like I said, that arrow actually went into the bandit, not through him. And also, the fact you're being really really specific about Mark and recall, etc. kinda seems nitpicky, I never quite got the hang of levitation or mark and recall but in the long run it never mattered. There are always ways of getting around. Besides, if you're on PC reducing or getting rid of load screens shouldn't be too hard.

And, you seem to place Morrowind on a pedestal too, there's no point in it. The game had it's flaws like any other game, now I'm not gonna lie that storylines and factions in Morrowind were interesting but it had it's share of bugs too. The only reason it had less than say, Skyrim, is because the technology during it's development was nowhere near as advanced as what Bethy had with Skyrim, or Oblivion for that matter. I'm pretty much going to chalk it up to the fact you prefer Morrowind over the other titles for smaller immersion reasons and call it a day.

[House of the Wolf]

-snip-

I'm not doing this whole straw-man with you, especially not over fact vs. opinion over a bloody video game.

Instead, moving on:

While I think much of the RPG element in the series has been streamlined/"casualized"[sic] (arguably to a detriment from an RPG-standpoint), I do appreciate the streamlining of certain elements such as combat, menu interface, and even conversations (which allow NPCs to still interact with the world around them, and can even be interrupted by an event--something previously missing).

Running on that specific feature/subject: While you had more conversation topics in TESIII, they were always clone-conversation pieces--repeating the exact same thing(s) everyone else was saying--and you had to dig through some of the topics to find the ones relevant to your quest(s). In TESIV, they did almost the same thing, but instead it was spoken. If an NPC is just repeating rumors in TESV, it doesn't even waste your time with a convo-box, which is something I particularly appreciate.

[logansrun]

ok, let me back up a second. here's what I'm attempting to explain and maybe it's me not doing a good job. the fact I'm trying to get across, or rather the point I'm attempting to make is that the entire point of this thread is which direction is the DEVELOPER taking the franchise, so my point is, whatever mods may or may not be available to address my issues is actually irrelevant to the subject.

everything I cited as far as game changes and developments are demonstrable facts in the base unmodded game. personally, I don't use mods and I don't like or want mods, and my point is I don't feel like I should have to rely on mods for fix changes or what I perceive were mistakes on the part of the developer.

mods are irrelevant to the subject and only serve to cloud the issue and muddy the water. the point is that the developer has made changes in the direction to appeal to a broader audience of "casual gamers", which does not necessarily appeal to old diehards like me. if it's not broke, don't fix it.

I don't necessarily want to have my hand held and be babysat throughout a game and I don't necessarily want to play second fiddle either as was the case in oblivion. the point of morrowind was that you were the hero of the story and I do commend them on at least returning to that theme in skyrim.

the point I'm trying to make is some of us like a challenging complex game full of options and choices. some of us enjoy being challenged and having to put some measure of legitimate effort into the game so we can appreciate the sense of accomplishment that comes from having to overcome challenges and obstacles placed in our path without feeling like it was basically handed to us on a silver platter.

[Derp53]

Well, if you put it that way, that has pretty much been said before. But we're kinda dealing with Bethesda if you haven't noticed, if it hadn't been for the modding community Skyrim would be a buggy mess.

Anyway, you sound hackneyed, and I'm not insulting you but seriously Morrowind was developed on an older model. And older model that's way to complicated. You get the whole hero thing in Skyrim, there's a difficulty bar for a reason, all you gotta do is set it up to expert or master difficulty. But you probably wouldn't know that, not having played Skyrim yourself. Regarding how you want to earn that sense of accomplishment and heroism, well, that's entirely subjective in its own right. To say two titles don't provide that while you probably haven't even played them is rather foolish. You don't even get babysat in Skyrim, or Oblivion too, once you get the bindings off in Skyrim you get armor, an axe and a push towards the action. In Oblivion you get to pick up armor and weapons and emerge to the Imperial City in the distance, hardly handholding at all.

[House of the Wolf]

@logan:
That might be what you, or I, want in a game--a game with a little spunk in the content, to make you think, and really allow to customize--but it's apparently not what the perceived-majority wanted. Companies capitulate to demand, as has been evident with TESV's official DLC (i.e., fans demanded certain things, fans got certain things).

Besides, how do you actually know how challenging Skyrim is/isn't?

like I said, I still to this day play Morrowind. I have almost no interest whatsoever in revisiting oblivion and I have yet to play skyrim and frankly I'm not sure I even care. I've read plenty of complaints and criticisms about things that are just as broke in skyrim as they were in either of the two previous titles to the point that my interest has significantly waned, so no, I'm not convinced the direction the franchise is going in is actually in the best interest of the gaming community. anybody can develop and produce a flashy mediocre game. that's not what initially got me into TES.

I'm just curious how you can disparage it as nonchallenging when you haven't even played it.

[Musicman247]

So in other words, to each their own. You don't like where they're going, most of us don't mind the ride.

Let's try and keep personal "attacks" out of this, guys. Everyone is allowed to voice their opinion.

[logansrun]

ok, last post of the night. like I said, what does the fact I've never played skyrim have to do with the subject of this thread considering there's an entire section dedicated and devoted to game content and information about all TES games that anyone can access?

another straw man, just like the speed runs and mods.

let's play a simple game of "yes" or "no", or better yet, multiple choice to determine if Beth has sacrificed game content for eye candy, and sacrificed substance for style?

out of the last three titles ...

which game has more travel options?
Morrowind

which game has more factions?
Morrowind

which game has more quests?
Morrowind

which game has more spell effects?
Morrowind

which game allows you to enchant any of the available spell effects onto any piece of enchantable gear?
Morrowind

which game nerfed enchanting?
oblivion

which game nerfed spellmaking?
skyrim

see where this is going now? do we really need to continue?

just between the travel options, magic system, factions and quests Morrowind outperforms, outshines and outstrips the later titles. not being facetious. just stating facts, which pretty much speak for themselves.

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

Most of the dumbing down and cutting results in the loss of entire play styles and role plays, to extra depth and customization.

Attributes (as a base variable and third variable along with skill and perk - and scapegoat of Oblivion's level scaling), spell crafting (the magic in magic), speed and jump variables (the usefulness of speed is self explanatory and acrobatics is just plain fun and good for certain role play types - as well as general freestyle playing), a slew of magical effects (from spells, enchanting and alchemical), lack of degradation (which in turn means degradation spells and an entire way of playing the game), birth signs (trivial to some, but another level of customization to make an RP your RP - taken away because Beth literally told us we were too dumb to have it), more limiting of armor pieces through merger (give me separate grieves, damn it), no portable alchemy (not even simple mortar and pestle), and that's just from Oblivion to now and off the top of my head.

Not only did these things offer more of everything (more play style, more choices, more options in general), but it's not like it's too much to ask for since Oblivion did all of this. While mods have addressed a few of the above issues, these options (some of which are cornerstones of the series going all the way back to Arena) should be available to all players. Nor are these missing mechanics for the niche minority, as these same criticisms have been voiced by many, before Skyrim was even released. There's a reason I have to go back to previous titles to play many different types of builds or RPs not present in Skyrim.

[House of the Wolf]

out of the last three titles ...

which game has more travel options?
Morrowind

All of each, while neat and certainly add a little more of an RP factor, are intrinsically gimmicky and are essentially Fast Travel in the form of boats/Silt Striders. Although, yes, Mark/Recall/Intervention are handy in a pinch, they are not universal in their usefulness. Not to mention that Skyrim has slowly added most of these features back in.

which game has more factions?
Morrowind

True. But they've each fewer quests with arguably less depth. It's their mutual-exclusivity between all factions that makes them truly more RPG-pure.

which game has more quests?
Morrowind

Quantity=/=quality. Each has their own fun quests, and their own not-as-fun quests to complete.

which game has more spell effects?
Morrowind

True. (This is one of the actual mechanics I miss, but I do not miss the actual implementation. To me, Skyrim's feels a lot nicer.)

which game allows you to enchant any of the available spell effects onto any piece of enchantable gear?
Morrowind

Skyrim allows to actually remove the enchantment off nearly any piece of equipment and add it to another piece of your choice.

which game nerfed enchanting?
oblivion

They definitely improved it with Skyrim.

which game nerfed spellmaking?
skyrim

Actually, Oblivion nerfed it, Skyrim made amends with it.

see where this is going now? do we really need to continue?

just between the travel options, magic system, factions and quests Morrowind outperforms, outshines and outstrips the later titles. not being facetious. just stating facts.

Right. Facts.

ok, last post of the night. like I said, what does the fact I've never played skyrim have to do with the subject of this thread considering there's an entire section dedicated and devoted to game content and information about all TES games that anyone can access?

another straw man, just like the speed runs and mods.

Debated answering this one, but I will:
You having not actually played the game is paramount. You can read all you want about the game, but until you actually play it, you have no real idea what it's like. That's a fundamental fact of existence: if you haven't experienced it, how can you then criticize it? "I don't like these fries, they're nasty. I haven't tried them, but I've read all about how they taste." It simply doesn't jive in an argument where you are trying to convince others that about how bad those fries taste. It's actually, at it's core, gossip.

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

Magic as a whole in Skyrim is inferior to its predecessors in every way but aesthetically. Enchanting was made worse by having less effects and significantly less enchantments that you can put on an item. Alchemy has less effects and less ingredients. Customization with spells is no more, and the millions upon millions of different spells you could make in every previous game is replaced by a tiny base fraction in comparison. Which means a third of the game gets old rather quickly compared to the previous games (even Ob). It's prettier than its predecessors, but that's about it.

[House of the Wolf]

True, but how many of those spells were actually used/useful? I'm not arguing that it wasn't streamlined--it definitely was--but to what end the numerous extra spells actually serve beyond a sense of extra choice? And I do miss the custom-spells.

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

True, but how many of those spells were actually used/useful? I'm not arguing that it wasn't streamlined--it definitely was--but to what end the numerous extra spells actually serve beyond a sense of extra choice? And I do miss the custom-spells.

All had a use. Even effects that seemed similer but were not (drain versus damage X variable). The nuances of the subtle distinctions between effects can be seen better in Morrowind however, with spells and effects like silence versus sound or blind versus any other disorientating effect. Whole play styles and characters can be made from just a few of these types of spells/effects. Add in the customisation we both miss and it is a never ending vanilla experience on all systems. You wouldn't even need magic enhancing mods. And there's still no real spell crafting mod and probably never will be one.

[logansrun]

snip ...

Debated answering this one, but I will:
You having not actually played the game is paramount. You can read all you want about the game, but until you actually play it, you have no real idea what it's like. That's a fundamental fact of existence: if you haven't experienced it, how can you then criticize it? "I don't like these fries, they're nasty. I haven't tried them, but I've read all about how they taste." It simply doesn't jive in an argument where you are trying to convince others that about how bad those fries taste. It's actually, at it's core, gossip.

no, wolf. this is why I get so frustrated and usually avoid even attempting to reason with the unreasonable. again mischaracterizing the very nature of my argument. I'm not even questioning what you are asserting. I'm questioning whether I'm getting my money's worth and what I'm actually paying for. a gem in the rough or a polished turd?

this is what you seem unable to comprehend or grasp. I'm NOT talking aesthetics like "taste" as Xarnac has repeatedly pointed out, as have I. I'm talking substance, volume, weight. measurable, observable, quantitative, quantifiable aspects of the game. actual content. your analogy is fundamentally flawed in this regard and respect. it's more like "I don't have to taste the fries to see that they're smaller in portion". and don't give me the old "quantity doesn't equal quality" either. it might be true in and of itself but hardly applicable here since tastes actually do vary and that is a matter of personal appeal and opinion. not all quests in ANY game are going to appeal to everyone. oblivion had their fair share of mindless "step and fetch" gopher quests as well as I'm quite sure skyrim does as well, and from what I do understand, a vast majority of them do hold your hand, per se, walking you through step-by-step each and every step of the way, just like oblivion tended to do.

"quality", in this sense, isn't nearly as directly measurable and observable as quantity, volume or weight. again, I'm talking content. substance versus style. there is no bloody way in hell that you can reasonably argue that either oblivion or skyrim has more game content than morrowind when it's obvious to any reasonable observer not blinded by cognitive bias that is definately not the case in any legitimate, measurable, directly observable sense of the word by method of straightforward side-by-side analysis and comparisson of almost any aspect of the game. you consistently pulled the old "bait and switch" routine in your arguments posted above, agreeing morrowind had more factions but arguing they each had fewer quests, ignoring the fact morrowind has more quests, and then when coming to and being confronted by that point switching up the argument to another red herring about quantity not equalling quality which was true among all TES titles.

as you ponted out in regard to Morrowind's faction quests ...

"Each has their own fun quests, and their own not-as-fun quests to complete."

which is true, but just as equally true in later titles of the series so that one's given as a wash.

the last one I want to specifically address is this gem.

"which game nerfed spellmaking? skyrim"
"Actually, Oblivion nerfed it, Skyrim made amends with it."

"amends"? just ... wth? ... they REMOVED it altogether! as Xarnac corrected yet once again.

"Customization with spells is no more"

"The most perfidious way of harming a cause consists of defending it deliberately with faulty arguments."
Friedrich Nietzsche, The Gay Science, section 191

again, you're blowing smoke and trying to convince me it's sunshine. sorry, not buying what you're selling. not picking up what your putting down. you are entitled to your own opinion. you are not entitled to your own facts. this isn't a personal attack but you are clearly making faulty arguments that I want to specifically address. it's not only unproductive, but annoying. I don't care what you compare. armor, weapons, skills, spells, alchemy, enchanting, factions, quests, locations, travel options, etc. you name it and morrowind has all later titles beat hands down in a side by side comparrison.

about the only possible exception is in the eye candy, graphics and multimedia dept. where the newer titles have the advantage of newer technology, which doesn't seem like a fair trade to me considering MGSO and other graphics mods actually do manage to "modernize" morrowind quite nicely from what I understand and have seen posted, and that is really where the argument for mods should come into play. in regards to keeping the older games contemporary to the newer titles. not the reverse of replacing absent content or missing game mechanics to the newer games that was present in the older titles. that's the tail wagging the dog and putting the cart before the horse. bass ackwards.

[Musicman247]

Logansrun, you're right. Morrowind is the best. Thanks for setting us all straight on that.

This has turned into a debate instead of a discussion. I would prefer to move it back to a discussion if we can. If we can't I don't foresee anything good coming from this thread so I'll lock it.

[logansrun]

musicman, I know you're a mod and with all due respect, you can be derisive, dismissive and flippant if you want but that doesn't change, exclude or excuse the facts. hence my original post on this thread ...

oh, this again. in engineering terms it is what is known as "idiot proofing".

the fact is this horse has been beat to death and now we're just prodding the decaying corpse. this has been hashed and rehashed more times than I care to count. frankly, given the facts, it's hard to believe or imagine that anyone would even attempt to argue, debate or defend it being the lost cause that it is. there's no question that Beth took an otherwise original franchise with creative and imaginative elements such as creatures like daedra, nix hounds and cliff racers to mud crabs and netch, along with an original plot and storyline of great house and faction wars, including imperial conquest, etc. all rolled into one and has proceeded to degenerate into yet another mindless generic hack-and-slash RPG.

[Musicman247]

Good points.

I like the story and lore presented by Oblivion and Skyrim. They are also quite original and interesting and help flesh out the continent of Tamriel.