On the Casualization of the TES series

[Musicman247]

As far as I'm aware neither Morrowind nor Oblivion had DiD options or a need to eat/sleep, so those aren't a part of the casualization of the series.

again, like i always respond when i hear your type of comment: where is the engenuity? the innovation? the creativity? where is the depth, complexity and sophistication? where is my hardcore and mature roleplaying game?

btw, DiD and eat/sleep have been in games for decades. as well, with auto-regen who needs to eat/sleep. again, that proves my point of view. morrowind was not auto-regen and sleeping at least had an actual in-game mechanic that was impacted. instead of eliminating it, why not IMPROVE it??

I think you're missing my point. DiD was never a part of the series, neither was the need to eat or sleep. Potions did just fine in healing you, as did Restoration magic. That's why I said they really can't be counted towards the casualization of the series (that is the topic, right? how the ES series of games has become more casual?). Pointing out features other games not in the series has but games in the series have never had is off topic in my opinion.

[logansrun]

I think you're missing my point. DiD was never a part of the series, neither was the need to eat or sleep. Potions did just fine in healing you, as did Restoration magic. That's why I said they really can't be counted towards the casualization of the series (that is the topic, right? how the ES series of games has become more casual?). Pointing out features other games not in the series has but games in the series have never had is off topic in my opinion.

ok, how about travel options just for one example?

we went from several modes of travel over a vast and complex network in Morrowind including ...

boat service
silt strider service
propylon index chambers
mage guild guides
Intervention (almsivi for nearest temple and divine for nearest IC shrine)
Mark and Recall
Levitation
overland (foot)
swimming/water walking

to Oblivion's ...

overland (foot or horse)
fast travel (foot or horse)
swimming/water walking

substance vs. style, etc.

"it's like the difference between tolkein and transformers."

hey, now there's an idea for a good "epic rap battles of history"

or maybe shakespeare vs papa smurf, or dragon ball z ...

oh, wait, they already have one ...

Hidden:

YouTube Link

my favorite is still this one ...

Hidden:

YouTube Link

*edit*

hey, wonder if there's any chance we could commission an epic rap battle between Dragonborn and Nerevarine? now THAT would be cool!

[Musicman247]

Mr. T vs Mister Rogers is the best, no matter what you say.

And yes, those are the kinds of things that should be discussed. I'm not saying the series hasn't gone through a bit of casualization. I agree. But does that mean the games are worse for it? I don't think so. There are still great stories and fun adventure to be found in each new game in the series. You might have to look harder for them, but they're there.

Skyrim sold more in its first two months on the market than Oblivion had since its release. The broader the audience the better a game will sell, and in any business, money talks.

[logansrun]

and in any business, money talks.

which is just sad cause it's a sell out to the hardcore fanbase that made them popular in the first place.

[Br3admax]

Because video games are so cheap to make.

[House of the Wolf]

and in any business, money talks.

which is just sad cause it's a sell out to the hardcore fanbase that made them popular in the first place.

I'm a hardcore fan. I like it.

[Archer]

And that type of "hardcore fanbase" that you refer to is only a tiny fraction of the total market. If they want the game to be successful, and if you want support for the bugs that will inevitably occur, they have to make enough profit for them to be able to continue to release free patches. They still have to pay salary, even if they are not currently developing a game.

[House of the Wolf]

Even then, those "hardcore" fans complaining appear to be a minority amongst the "hardcore" fan-base. Most "hardcore" fans love TES primarily for the lore and the story; everything else is icing on the cake.

[logansrun]

And that type of "hardcore fanbase" that you refer to is only a tiny fraction of the total market. If they want the game to be successful, and if you want support for the bugs that will inevitably occur, they have to make enough profit for them to be able to continue to release free patches. They still have to pay salary, even if they are not currently developing a game.

yeah, cause they did such a great job in the past with all their previous titles right? need I remind you much of the game related content that has modernized and optimized past games like morrowind has come primarily from third party aftermarket mods? should we waltz over and take a look at the threads dealing with official release bugs for oblivion and skyrim? most of which could and should have reasonably been expected to have been caught and debugged pre-release? like musicman observed, money talks now. I've worked in engineering for twenty years and walked away in disgust at the lack of quality control in place. it's not just software but hardware too. they rush everything to market asap and worry about putting out the fires afterward. there is little or no attention to detail anymore. the only real concerns are with potential liability issues, which in the gaming industry amount to zero. that why one of my primary rules is never ever buy first gen anything. always wait for second gen before you can reasonably expect any major issues to be resolved. look at the red ring of death xbox issue for a prime example. I can tell you many more such stories from my own personal experiences.

[Musicman247]

All of the things you want are readily supplied by the modding community, which has only grown. Why should Bethesda worry about niche groups of players when there are people ready, willing and able to make mods to cater to those groups? Why not put time and effort into making the best base game you can that will appeal to as many people as possible and a toolset that modders can use to easily change the game?

Most of the hardcore fanbase is playing on the PC anyway, so you're pretty much taken care of.

[Archer]

One, you really can't use morrowind as an example for support, as its over 10 years old. Two, If they fixed every bug, every glitch, you would end up with a game that would take at least 7-8 years to release and its cost would be astronomical. Then people would complain about how long it took to release and how expensive it was, you really can't please everyone.

[udubdawgs]

the gaming industry is different in today's world. the dumbing-down need not occur for sales to continue at all-time highs. if skyrim would have been a hardcore rpg mechanic-based game it would still have sold as it did. it's about revenue, not, sales. as well, i will continue to repeat the fact that handholding CAN STILL occur.

in fact, i am convinced they blew their opportunity for a hardcore rpg mechanic-based game. though, i can't really say that since this was a purposeful decision to go the cheaper and dumbed-down route. now, the cat's out of the bag and there's no going back.

dumbed-down, casualization, simple, easy and shallow games with less customization and less options and less of everything is here to stay, on consoles. if i buy it for consoles, i guess i'll have to continue creating my own made-up rules to make the game better because the developers chose to not do it themselves.

mindless and meaningless escapism.

[logansrun]

All of the things you want are readily supplied by the modding community, which has only grown. Why should Bethesda worry about niche groups of players when there are people ready, willing and able to make mods to cater to those groups? Why not put time and effort into making the best base game you can that will appeal to as many people as possible and a toolset that modders can use to easily change the game?

Most of the hardcore fanbase is playing on the PC anyway, so you're pretty much taken care of.

don't get me wrong. I'm not totally down on the franchise. I do appreciate some of the ideas they've tried to implement like bringing back chance random encounters, etc. but I think along the lines of what dawgs was saying, in some respects I'm disappointed. looking back I see a growing trend of sacrificing substance in terms of content for style and I think that's just sad. I'm disappointed in the regard that it could have been so much better and they could have possibly and potentially done so much more with it. morrowind had one of the most robust magic systems of any game and I have watched that in slow decline getting nerfed game after game. dunno, maybe I'm just getting old and suffering from old timer syndrome. the kids don't seem to mind, but I wonder if they know what it is they're missing out on in terms of depth? they'll play through skyrim and after a short while grow bored and tired of it like I did with oblivion and it'll get retired to a shelf to collect dust or traded for a flashier newer title. meanwhile, I'll likely still be neck deep in morrowind.

[Musicman247]

Just want to say that complexity does not equal depth.

[House of the Wolf]

the kids don't seem to mind, but I wonder if they know what it is they're missing out on in terms of depth? they'll play through skyrim and after a short while grow bored and tired of it like I did with oblivion and it'll get retired to a shelf to collect dust or traded for a flashier newer title. meanwhile, I'll likely still be neck deep in morrowind.

What you're describing nostalgia. I was 14 when Morrowind came out, and 18 with Oblivion. I still remember my first playthroughs with them. But I also recognize that streamlined=/=lesser. And again, much of what you're feeling nostalgia for, people complained out the ass about at that time.

[logansrun]

Just want to say that complexity does not equal depth.

c'mon, musicman. let's be real. along the subject of this thread, I've already cited several examples of exactly what we've been discussing and it was barely even acknowledged. you rejected dawgs examples so I gave you examples just of travel options they nerfed, not to mention content like I pointed out the Imperial city in oblivion is roughly comparable to morrowind's tribunal expansion. don't even attempt to argue that morrowind didn't have more of both complexity and depth. we can compare almost any aspect for clear examples. how about factions and faction questlines? please, don't add insult to injury by insulting my intelligence. I'm not naive or stupid.

*edit*

What you're describing nostalgia. I was 14 when Morrowind came out, and 18 with Oblivion. I still remember my first playthroughs with them. But I also recognize that streamlined=/=lesser. And again, everything you're feeling nostalgia for, people complained out the ass about at that time.

the only thing I remember people complaining "out the ass about" were the intial load times for the console, which primarily resulted in the loss of levitation in oblivion when they abandoned the rendering of entire external city cells. that's why you couldn't levitate and had walled cities in oblivion that you weren't supposed to be able to get above and over.

[House of the Wolf]

Just want to say that complexity does not equal depth.

c'mon, musicman. let's be real. along the subject of this thread, I've already cited several examples of exacly what we've been discussing and it was barely even acknowledged. you rejected dawgs examples so I gave you examples just of travel options they nerfed, not to mention content like I pointed out the Imperial city in oblivion is roughly comparable to morrowind's tribunal expansion. don't even attempt to argue that morrowind didn't have more of both complexity and depth. we can compare almost any aspect for clear examples. how about factions and faction questlines? please, don't add insult to injury by insulting my intelligence. I'm not naive or stupid.

As far as pure RPG elements are concerned, Morrowind beats nearly all games (not just TES titles) side-by-side. The fact that factions were mutually exclusive with one another was a neat aspect, and certainly that fact that nearly everything you did in the world had some sort of permanent consequence made decision making that much more important.

But a lot of people complained about the traveling system being too cumbersome, so they adjusted it in Oblivion. When the complaints were loud enough about the lack of diversified traveling in that game, they re-added different modes with Skyrim. Features aren't added and detracted merely on a whim; they're added and detracted because of a perceived demand/complaint. Hence why they actively revised some of Morrowind's (the province) history.

[Musicman247]

I'm not trying to insult anybody's anything. I've already agreed to your points. Why don't you address mine? Is the game less fun to play because of the changes? What's wrong with letting the modding community get in on the action of creating and refining content for certain sections of the audience? If Bethsoft decided to do away with the modding tools, then I would see your point. But as it stands, the vast majority of people are happy with the series and those that are looking for more have a plethora of mods to choose from to make the game what they want. Hell, there's even a Super Mario Land mod.

[logansrun]

basically, to answer your primary point, yes. oblivion was less fun than morrowind. why? lack of levitation, intervention, mark and recall. I loved it and missed it dearly in oblivion. the oblivion gates were a chore more than fun lugging loot to and fro. in morrowind that was rarely if ever an issue. what about one of the chief criticisms of skyrim? the addition of crafting to the point that you no longer need to quest when you can custom craft and hand make the most powerful items in the game. certainly not the case with morrowind and I can list scores of examples of magic items and quest rewards that were totally unmanageable no matter what you tried. aryon's dominator and aryon's helper just to name a couple, not to mention many of the relics, most of which got likewise nerfed in oblivion. no mod can fix nonexistant game mechanics.

[House of the Wolf]

Crafting/Enchanting powerful items was actually something that people complained about not having in previous ES games.

Mark and Recall are features that I still miss, but it became sort of unnecessary when they added in Fast Travel. Levitation was just broke-as-hell...fun..but broke.

[Musicman247]

You're underestimating the skill of modders. There are already DiD and survival mods. There are even mods that make you start a fire or wear heavy coats in the snow or else you'll freeze. Mods can also nerf existing crafting methods if you so choose.

[logansrun]

no amount of modding can restore levitation to my knowledge. THAT is what broke oblivion for me. another prime example that I dreaded in oblivion. nerfed enchanting. many spell effects weren't available for enchanting and only certain ones could go on certain items. the default enchanted mage item became a staff. getting lower leveled gear that was non upgradeable as you leveled. about the only exception was the knights of the nine gear that they fixed through the expansion to be able to level with the PC. leveled sigil stone enchantments, etc. all just completely broke the game for me as a player coming from morrowind. maybe it was the freedom I enjoyed in morrowind that spoiled me.

[Br3admax]

They took out levitation because of game cells and the fact that it makes actually traveling worthless. Levitation was cool, but all it did was help people beat Morrowing in seven , no what is it now, four minutes. That's dumbing down to me, at least Skyrim has to be played longer than four minutes

[House of the Wolf]

no amount of modding can restore levitation to my knowledge. THAT is what broke oblivion for me. another prime example that I dreaded in oblivion. nerfed enchanting. many spell effects weren't available for enchanting and only certain ones could go on certain items. the default enchanted mage item became a staff. getting lower leveled gear that was non upgradeable as you leveled. about the only exception was the knights of the nine gear that they fixed through the expansion to be able to level with the PC. leveled sigil stone enchantments, etc. all just completely broke the game for me as a player coming from morrowind. maybe it was the freedom I enjoyed in morrowind that spoiled me.

Again, people complained about the difficulty in late-game Morrowind, since the levels of most areas/caves were set stagnant, so Bethesda made the leveling of enemies/loot scale with the player so that they were challenged through the majority of the game instead of just at the beginning.

[Musicman247]

Skyrim speedrun - over two hours
Oblivion speedrun - over an hour
Morrowind speedrun - over four minutes