Bretons, Conjuration, Necromancy, and Naming Conventions

[BlackWormDisciple]

Hello again, guys. I know I posted a topic fairly recently, and thank you to all who has responded to it (Pilaf, Legoless), but I figured while I'm having issues with Nexus Mod Manager and while I try to get things sorted (asked on the forums for Nexus about it), I figured I'd ask three questions about the Bretons that I've been wondering about.

First, we know that the Bretons are said to be weaned on magic - shown by their affinity for the arcane arts and alchemy, as well as their innate resistant to magicka used against them. However, is there an explanation for the rather large boost to their skills in Conjuration in the games - be it anything related to their culture in High Rock in the lore books or anything of the sort? Looking back at the Morrowind and Oblivion stats, Bretons have both high Intelligence and Willpower - Intelligence may govern Conjuration according to the games, but I could imagine that one's strength of will is also an important part of Conjuration as well since one must bind and control a summoned Daedra. And in Daggerfall, summoners seemed to be common, and of course the Witch Covens also demonstrated the ability to summon Daedra as well regardless of the day they attempt the summon on the player's behalf (after being paid, of course).

Second question is a bit similar - but have there been any notable Necromancers of High Rock aside from the Reachmen (any 'civilized' Bretons of High Rock, I should say)? In addition, what would be the official 'stance' on Necromancy in High Rock around the time of the 4th Era? I remember the book Corpse Preparation saying Necromancers must work underground and that parts of High Rock - closer to the Reach I believe - cremate their dead while those in the south and west are more likely to bury their dead instead. And, again, in Daggerfall, there is even a holiday "Tales and Tallows" that celebrates necromancy as 'the oldest magical science'. Would this holiday still be considered 'canon' though?

And for my third question, I'll get to the point. What exactly would the naming conventions be for Bretons? I know that there are Bretons who have German, English/Old English, and even French names. But are the naming conventions different depending on where a Breton hails from in High Rock - for example, English names in Daggerfall, French names in Wayrest, etc? Also, forgive me for this, Breton (and all of the playable races of Man really) also have members of their race that have "faux"-*insert name inspirations here* names, right? And by that, I mean names that resemble the conventions that inspire the Breton/Imperial/Nord/Redguard naming conventions but are not real-life names or variations/altered spellings of those real-life names.

Anyways, thank you in advance for reading. Looking forward to your responses and insights.*Smiles*

[legoless]

No real lore behind their Conjuration boost, but the Bretons of High Rock are largely responsible for Mannimarco's successful campaign for godhead during the Warp in the West. The race clearly has very skilled necromancers.

Naming conventions are French. The English names are mostly from the older games, although there are still influences. Reachmen naming conventions are Irish/Celtic.

[SarthesArai]

Though ESO has some Reachmen with breton names...

[legoless]

Does it really? I mean, they're the same race, but ESO has done a pretty good job maintaining the naming conventions. You sure you're not remembering Wyrd NPCs?

[BlackWormDisciple]

Technically, the Reachmen are the same as the Bretons but they also have a far more mixed ancestry than just Nedic and Altmeri.

And wait, legoless, are the English names no longer used or retconned?

[BetaB17]

1) Well much of their affinity in magic comes from their elven ancestry. As for Conjunction, it could potentially have something to do with the Direnni clan. Whether their influence was purely from their proximity within the region or on a more genetic level. It could be, or could not, the lore hardly covers these details. Though I should mention.. the proficiency of the witch covens in summoning isnt bc of race, but bc many are of Glenmoril.

2) Just as Legoless said, the bretons very clearly have skilled necromancers. Maybe its the political strife of the region or the region itself, or even their particular culture that has allowed for necromancy to be so prevalent to the race. Per its legality.. Generally necromancy has largely been frowned upon across Tamriel, and while sometimes tolerated or banned.. its obviously illegal if one goes about collecting 'fresh' specimens. And while yes the Mage's Guild did take a stance against the practice, the Empire itself never enacted the ban. I would guess High Rock would tolerate it much the same despite their long history of conflict. Given that, it makes sense why practitioners are driven underground, not to mention the frequency of wars and nearby orc settlements are to tempting to pass.

3) I have nothing on this, srry

[BlackWormDisciple]

1) Well much of their affinity in magic comes from their elven ancestry. As for Conjunction, it could potentially have something to do with the Direnni clan. Whether their influence was purely from their proximity within the region or on a more genetic level. It could be, or could not, the lore hardly covers these details. Though I should mention.. the proficiency of the witch covens in summoning isnt bc of race, but bc many are of Glenmoril.

2) Just as Legoless said, the bretons very clearly have skilled necromancers. Maybe its the political strife of the region or the region itself, or even their particular culture that has allowed for necromancy to be so prevalent to the race. Per its legality.. Generally necromancy has largely been frowned upon across Tamriel, and while sometimes tolerated or banned.. its obviously illegal if one goes about collecting 'fresh' specimens. And while yes the Mage's Guild did take a stance against the practice, the Empire itself never enacted the ban. I would guess High Rock would tolerate it much the same despite their long history of conflict. Given that, it makes sense why practitioners are driven underground, not to mention the frequency of wars and nearby orc settlements are to tempting to pass.

3) I have nothing on this, srry

Not to worry about the third question - thank you for giving your opinion/answers by the way. *smiles*

Good point about the witch covens, by the way. Forgot that little fact... As for the Direnni, that's a valid point. They were among the first to actually develop conjuration techniques for summoning and binding daedra, so I guess it would make sense that the Bretons would have a large affinity for this particular school of magic.

And of course, as legoless mentioned, the Bretons of High Rock are largely responsible for Mannimarco's ascension - and High Rock was one of his larger power bases as well for the Order of the Black Worm. That, the Gravesingers of the Reachmen, and the fact that in Daggerfall Tales and Tallows celebrates necromancy as the 'oldest magical science' as well as the Bretons' more open-minded natures towards magic as a whole would add to their usage of necromancy.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Another note on Conjuration - the game Daggerfall offers Daedric conjuration services in several places, even among the Temples of the Divines, which might seem like a weird contradiction until you realize the subtle but profound differences between Breton views on magic and spirituality as compared to their Nord, Cyrodiilic and Redguard neighbors. Types of magic that are deemed dangerous or profane by others are seen as much more normal and not really a big deal morally by Bretons. This was likely inherited by their Direnni ancestors, as well as old Nedic hedge mage traditions the Reachmen still practice. Most average, gods-fearing Bretons don't go so far as to actually worship Daedra or practice unauthorized necromancy, but the umbrella of things considered profane or "occult" is much smaller in High Rock, which might explain the Conjuration boost.

[legoless]

And wait, legoless, are the English names no longer used or retconned?

I think so, unless you can find an example post-Battlespire.

[SarthesArai]

Does it really? I mean, they're the same race, but ESO has done a pretty good job maintaining the naming conventions. You sure you're not remembering Wyrd NPCs?

What about Kevinne Blightheart and Ambre Gnarltree, for example?

[BlackWormDisciple]

Another note on Conjuration - the game Daggerfall offers Daedric conjuration services in several places, even among the Temples of the Divines, which might seem like a weird contradiction until you realize the subtle but profound differences between Breton views on magic and spirituality as compared to their Nord, Cyrodiilic and Redguard neighbors. Types of magic that are deemed dangerous or profane by others are seen as much more normal and not really a big deal morally by Bretons. This was likely inherited by their Direnni ancestors, as well as old Nedic hedge mage traditions the Reachmen still practice. Most average, gods-fearing Bretons don't go so far as to actually worship Daedra or practice unauthorized necromancy, but the umbrella of things considered profane or "occult" is much smaller in High Rock, which might explain the Conjuration boost.

That's what I was thinking, Pilaf. Bretons may belief in the Aedra, but they're 'not disposed of excessive religion". This open-mindedness regarding magic and the occult, and the fact that Daedra summoning services are commonly found - including in Temples of the Divines as you said - in Daggerfall, the Direnni had a large influence on the Breton people, the Reachmen's history with their more 'civilized cousins' if you will, and the culture of High Rock as a whole could explain their large boost to Conjuration.

[legoless]

I'll definitely concede Ambre, that doesn't sound like a Reach name at all. Makes sense for there to be a little blurring though.

[BlackWormDisciple]

So, since it's pretty much agreed French is the inspiration for Breton names, I must ask. Are there any names that are 'faux French' at all? Anything that was created to mimic the style and sound of French names yet do not exist as names used in real-life? (edited for the sake of rephrasing - courtesy of Marisa pointing that out. It was late when I made the unedited version of this post.)

Also, I guess Breton names are not regional in terms of the style of their names, correct? Forgive me, I just wish to be certain about this.

[legoless]

I don't speak French, but (like most NPCs) Bretons names seem to be faux. Remember that they're written by American writers, and only take inspiration from real world naming conventions.

No regional naming is obvious, but in-universe I'm sure such differences exist. High Rock is a big place, and "Breton" is just a collective term for the various mongrel races of man that inhabit that province.

[Marisa Kirisame]

BlackWormDisciple, have you started seeing people around you as "real life NPCs"?

[BlackWormDisciple]

BlackWormDisciple, have you started seeing people around you as "real life NPCs"?

Oh bloody hell... Allow me to rephrase, because that was clearly worded wrong. I was asking if there were any names that were made to mimic French names, but aren't actual names of French origin, which would be used in real life.

Not insane, just very bad at wording and phrasing every now and then. Forgive me.

[BlackWormDisciple]

So... Anyone else care to chime in?

Also, is there anyone who can confirm if there are any (or if there are many in the event there are) Breton NPC names that are created/"artificial" that try to mimic real-world French names?

My apologies if it seems like I'm beating a dead horse for asking a lot by the way - I suppose I just want to be certain about the Breton names, as well want to hear more opinions and bits of lore from others. Especially while I seem to be trying in vain to fix a bizarre issue with .Net Framework. *sigh*

[Lavellan]

It really depends where and when you're looking at Bretons. Bretons can have very French names, English, or Celtic (primarily Irish), and sometimes straight up "fantasy" names that don't seem to quite fit in the after-mentioned groups.

The older TES (Arena, Daggerfall) games had more of a English influence on it (ex: Carolayne, Vyctorya, Barbara), often with weird, 'exotic' spellings, and some of this carried into later games (ex: Oblivion - Raelynn, Alyssa, Aric, Rosalyn, Colin; Skyrim: Mena, Senna, Sam, Malvina, Thomas). However, the majority of Breton names are French - Marie, Evangeline, Nanette, Alain, and Alois are some examples between Oblivion-Skyrim. Sometimes Bretons have very Germanic or Italian names (probably due to close proximity to Skyrim/Cyrodiil from a lore perspective), but generally they're pretty French. Reachmen also have very Celtic names, particularly Irish and faux-Celtic (Modhna, Rhiada, Cairine, Edana, Riane, Sorcha, Fianna, Faolon).

Some Bretons also have actual Breton names, too - Annaig, Mael, and Anais to name a few. It's probably just because they're called Bretons so someone used actual Breton names (which are a French group), but I find it really kind of interesting since Breton is also a Celtic language* - which Reachmen use themselves.

However, in regards to faux-French names, there are plenty of Bretons that have names that are not used in France that are French (ie, Rochelle), and a lot of their names are still very 'fantasy-French' where the names are suppose to bring to mind France, but not necessarily be French (ex: Dabienne, Emusette, Gulitte, Laelette, Renardine, Visanne, Jodoin). Other names seem to be straight-up fantasy (Talara, Elara, Ronyssa, Yvara).

Aspects to Breton culture seems to be a mix of England and France, as well. To be totally honest though, England and France are both very intertwined regions: genetically, culturally, linguistically (although, Germanic influences are stronger on English than French is, I suppose), so I'd say the Bretons reflect that quite well - intended or not.

If you have a particular name you're curious about, you can always take a look at the Lore page for Breton names to get a better idea.
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Breton_Names

*I should probably clarify that it's a Brythonic language, closer related to Welsh and Cornish, than Gaelic languages like Irish and Scottish, but I really like linguistics... so it was a little parallel I thought I'd point out. xD

[Dark Spark]

In the headcanon I employed for Conjuration in Oblivion, human mages were more adept at Necromancy while elven mages were better at Daedric summoning. It seemed to me that elves would have a closer connection with otherworldly entities while humans held a tighter bond to spirit and souls.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

The witch covens of Daggerfall have a strong affinity for Daedric conjuration. Orthorox Aldmeri society frowns upon both Necromancy and Daedric trafficking, seeing them as uncultured and barbaric practices. Of course, some of the most powerful Necromancers and Summoners of all time have been Altmer, so there are clearly Altmer who choose to forgo tradition and social niceties. I'd say that on average, though, you'd be far less likely to see an Altmer trafficking with Daedra than a Breton. There's no solid lore evidence that culturally, they're tolerant of them. The fact Veloth had to leave Summerset because of his teachings suggests to me that Summerset doesn't tolerate Daedric veneration at all.

[Dark Spark]

It's simply a roleplaying rule I apply to my mage characters. The elven ones can conjure daedra, the human ones are limited to the undead.

[legoless]

In Auridon in ESO there's a very heavy stigma against any sort of Daedric trafficking. Punishable by death I believe.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

It's simply a roleplaying rule I apply to my mage characters. The elven ones can conjure daedra, the human ones are limited to the undead.

You can do as you wish, but don't back pedal. You were trying to imply there was a lore basis for this behavior. There is not. Of course, there can be in YOUR Tamriel, just not the official one. We all have our own version of any fictional universe - that universe as only our minds perceive it. This forum is more about the lore as intended by the devs, though.

[Dark Spark]

In the headcanon I employed for Conjuration in Oblivion, ...

The implication only comes into being if your eyes went blind for a second when trying to read the very first few words of my post. Or you're just snorting and pawing the ground as a display to defend your territory.