Why won't you let TES take a new form?

[Skrofler]

I've seen the same argument now a dozen times in various threads saying that TES "will not work" as an MMO, and it's not just a prediction about market success but people actually saying that the IP (TES) is incompatible with the form (MMO).

It amazes me how many players, in their minds, will not let certain games transcend their form. An IP is just an IP and of course you can make any kind of game from Star Wars or Lego or Batman or TES as long as the IP remains intact. Saying that it "doesn't work" is just another way of saying you have emotional issues with the change of form, unless you can show how the IP or lore (not the implementation!) is actually hurt.
What else could it possibly be that makes someone say that f.ex Star Wars can be made to fit a new form but TES can't? I'd like to hear the actual reasoning behind such a statement.

[legoless]

A TES MMO fits much better than those terrible Java games from the 2000s.

[Mr.Argonian]

I've seen the same argument now a dozen times in various threads saying that TES "will not work" as an MMO, and it's not just a prediction about market success but people actually saying that the IP (TES) is incompatible with the form (MMO).

It amazes me how many players, in their minds, will not let certain games transcend their form. An IP is just an IP and of course you can make any kind of game from Star Wars or Lego or Batman or TES as long as the IP remains intact. Saying that it "doesn't work" is just another way of saying you have emotional issues with the change of form, unless you can show how the IP or lore (not the implementation!) is actually hurt.
What else could it possibly be that makes someone say that f.ex Star Wars can be made to fit a new form but TES can't? I'd like to hear the actual reasoning behind such a statement.

This guy knows what he's saying. Any IP can make any game, whether it will be successful is a whole nother thing, but it can be made. For example look at the new South Park RPG coming out, who would have expected that after a few mobile games. Any IP can make any genre of games, it just needs a bit of creativity.

[Stormborn]

Any IP can make any genre of games, it just needs a bit of creativity.

Within reason. Although, I personally cannot wait for TES of Duty - The Summerset Isle Gets Nuked! Suppose Bethesda could do a retcon to explain why Altmer are yellow.

[Mr.Argonian]

Well a TES FPS could use a bow instead of a gun. As I said, just a bit of creativity.

[Br3admax]

Did you say Star Wars? That what was a fail. TOR is a bruise on the face of the Old Republic franchise. And we like MMOs, but we want them hand-shaped, not from the MMO-Cookie-Cutter.

[Skrofler]

Any IP can make any genre of games, it just needs a bit of creativity.

Within reason. Although, I personally cannot wait for TES of Duty - The Summerset Isle Gets Nuked! Suppose Bethesda could do a retcon to explain why Altmer are yellow.

Any genre of game, that is - not any particular implementation. Your reply may be in jest but it still works well to mark the difference between the possibility to fit any IP to any form and actual success or failure to do so in a credible way.

Did you say Star Wars? That what was a fail. TOR is a bruise on the face of the Old Republic franchise. And we like MMOs, but we want them hand-shaped, not from the MMO-Cookie-Cutter.

And again, whether Star Wars was a fail or not has nothing to do with it.
I don't know who "we" are, but if you actually want a TES MMO then I'm clearly not addressing you. I was refering to those who think MMOs are literally incompatible with some IP.

[Dark Spark]

Warcraft was a real-time strategy game for a long, long time.

[philfredobob]

i never said it wouldnt work as an MMO, i just dont like MMOs

[thamoirthegreat]

I hope it will work as a MMO, but I am just afraid that it is going to end up as a MMO shaped by the "from the MMO-Cookie-Cutter". If it is very generic it will fail. WOW has to much of a hold over the MMO market. This game needs to be different and original.

[Mr.Argonian]

Well judging from what I've seen of TES:O it looks like it will be more than a typical "WoW copy cat". Unfortunately I have my doubts because many people will just pass it off as a typical MMO, when I believe it will offer a new and exciting way to play MMOs.

[Yaije]

Business number crunching aside. The reasons MMO's are successes or failures is really more in the hands of the players and the dev's than the IP used.

To be honest I'd actually like to see an FPS using melee weapons, bows and spells. Elderscroll with Team Fortress pacing? You can put up examples of other games that failed, but really they failed for other reasons than the source material for the game's idea

Spoiler:

Like horrible balancing of certain game aspect, butchering of mechanics, blatant attempts to turn the game into something else.... but I'm only talking about Star Wars Galaxies

[Avron the S'wit]

Well judging from what I've seen of TES:O it looks like it will be more than a typical "WoW copy cat". Unfortunately I have my doubts because many people will just pass it off as a typical MMO, when I believe it will offer a new and exciting way to play MMOs.

That's a point worth making, too. The players are the ones who make the experience. People who go in already thinking the game will suck will probably not have the best experience they can have, and possibly ruin it for others by being a Negative Nancy; whereas people who go into it with the "Let's give it a go!" mentality are a little more likely to develop their own opinions more freely.

Personally I believe you shouldn't bash anything until you try it, and I think this is going to be a nice, unique way to share TES with others. I'm looking forward to it!

[Yaije]

Honestly... I've gone out and pre-ordered every mmo that's come out in the past year or so (assuming my crappy laptop can run it.... means no to Tera/Secret World/a couple others...) and the ONE thing that kills a game for me is the players.

I swear the only games I don't get instantly turned off of as soon as I hit a populated chat channel are Eve and Runescape. Really I should just upgrade into a system that has something more high end than a dorito for a graphics card.

Spoiler:

can't game when your system has less memory dedicated to graphics than what you can fit in a single assignment for any given class. No wonder why I can run the older games only.

[Avron the S'wit]

Players are awful sometimes...but I'm sure players who come from UESP will set a good example by raising the bar and being awesome.

[Kerr]

It will be a rubbish WOW clone that will fail and lose money. Just like how all those other WOW clones failed and lost loads of money. Costs $100 million dollars to make a MMO. That could have been spent on something better. Also I don't really like MMOs.

[Abel]

I think it's a bit silly to call it a WoW clone. First of all, we haven't had a chance to play it yet or see it in action. And second, if you had done some research you can see that they are clearly trying to do something different. Besides, there are plenty other MMOs that are still doing great and making money: SWTOR, Rift and Guild Wars 2 for example.

I was skeptical at first as well, but I'm excited that they are trying something different with the franchise. Sharing my TES experience with friends has always been something I wanted, and now they are giving us that opportunity. This may end as a failure, but so be it. In that case we just move on and play the next single player installment.

[Yaije]

Not just the newer released MMO's but even some of those older ones still around and old as sin. With entertainment stuff, you can't just assume any thing's a flop or not. Sometimes it just rolls a nat 20 and super crits.

I don't get why I see more discussions over new and upcoming MMORPG's than the next FPS or single player rpg. That's one thing I just don't understand.

[Kerr]

From everything we have seen a WOW comparison is a fair one. If they wanted to do something different they could have made it play like the other elder scrolls games instead of more like WOW. People don't have the time to play 2 fantasy MMOs at the same time. If all their friends are playing WOW they probably won't want to leave to go to another game. You won't beat WOW by making WOW.

And The Old Republic isn't doing well. If Star Wars can't beat WOW I seriously doubt TES can.

I mean it is possible that the game could be good. And that would be great. But I doubt it.

[Avron the S'wit]

I myself am not concerned about "beating WOW." As long as the game is enjoyable and holds up to my expectations as a fan of the series, I rather don't mind the format. (I don't play WOW, either, so I guess I have nothing to really complain about... It wouldn't be like playing the same game but playing twice, and I doubt it will be like that, anyway.)

Still, going to try it first.

[Chaos the N'wah]

WoW got 4 good years out of me, fun years; if I could recapture that level of fun within an IP that I'm actually invested in, I could care less about the crying masses.

Having said that, starting up MMOs is all about getting players and finding your niche, I hope TESO finds its own place in the market without trying to be too much like its top competition, regardless of its placement on the quantity of players in the grand scheme of things (economic loss notwithstanding).

[Yaije]

From everything we have seen a WOW comparison is a fair one.

IMO you're over generalizing what ESO's currently released info is (which probably isn't enough in my book) and what WoW is.

I'm currently thinking WoW is as much like ESO as Fable (the first one) is to Morrowind.

The rest of the post I'm just going to ignore since I just realized I'd sat and typed up a shortened version of MMO history and how I don't see how another game can get like WoW, and that I never want to see another WoW exist

Spoiler:

I sat down for a week in wow and really thought about what I was doing and how it varied from class to class, action to action, zone to zone... and it summed up to not much Weekly boss attempts, daily quests, rep grind, and praying to RNG gods that loot would drop.

So now I personally make sure to look at any new game with as good a demeanor as I can muster and really look at whats all there to do and how it was implemented.

IMO it's a shame we don't have more MMO's like Eve/Darkfall/Runescape along side the Raid/dungeon centered ones like Rift/Tor/WoW.

[Skrofler]

Urgh, I'm not going to try and get this thread back on topic. I'm satisfied with the answers I got so I'll shift focus.

If there's one other thing that really annoys me about the whineheads it's the "WoW clone" complaint.
This complaint holds no merit. If you knew the first thing about MMOs (and maybe also the second) you'd see that. Now it just reeks of jealousy and bad sentiment towards the grand daddy of the MMO family. I suspect these complaints come mostly from people who haven't played MMOs or maybe tried WoW for a few weeks and didn't like it.

Bear in mind that I've not played TESO (and neither have you) but it sure seems more removed from WoW than any (except EVE) of the 9 MMOs I've tried so far (WoW, EQ2, WAR, EVE, GW2, AoC, DAoC, SWToR, DDO). I'm not going to refer to any I haven't played.
1) The three faction PvP setting comes from DAoC (also by Matt Firor) and can be seen in a lesser incarnation in GW2. How about branding it a DAoC clone instead?
2) The action ability setup with a small number of actions chosen from a large arsenal were seen in EVE and GW2 but not in WoW.
3) The way of attacking by timed actions and reactions reminds of AoC, but is of course being developed straight from TES5.
4) The cartoonish look of WoW is far off save for the ubiquitous flashy ability effects.
5) Don't know much about quests at this point but since WoW is very outdated in this area there's no reason to believe TESO will take nine steps back to 2004. What Matt Firor has said on the topic makes a more orginial system more likely, possibly resembling GW2.
6) Stamina, health, magicka, (armour and power). That seems to be it. Sounds like any game we know?
7) Don't get me started on classes!
I could go on but I've made my point.

So, yes, there are the staple functions of an MMO. These are defining traits. Change too many of them and you cross over into another genre. I'd like to hear what exactly makes TESO a clone of WoW and not any other comparable game.
To paraphrase the whining (and it is whining - not critique) I might say, if you'd ask my opinion about an FPS on the market, "too much like Doom". And you could ask me about any of them. They'd all be "Doom clones" to me, because it's always in first person and all about shooting things up. Well, yeah, it's a first person shooter!
TESO is a MMORPG. Exactly what level of uniqueness to the design will it take to not make it a clone?

[Musicman247]

If we can't stay on topic we'll just lock this thread. Asking people to compare a game that nobody has played to a game that probably most here haven't played much is just asking for a bunch of conjecture and assumptions (most probably false), which does nobody any good.

[Skrofler]

Asking people to compare a game that nobody has played to a game that probably most here haven't played much is just asking for a bunch of conjecture and assumptions (most probably false), which does nobody any good.

I'm looking for exactly that conjecture because it would prove my point and the reason I started this thread. However, if someone actually can make a valid point to the contrary that would be pleasing as well.
Let's keep this going on the broader topic of why there is so much hate for TESO.