On the Casualization of the TES series

[udubdawgs]

User friendly.

"But most people are idiots."
Caius Cosades

i laugh every time i read that. in fact, to all those who feel voice-acting is a must that is a perfect line to read. i can "hear" his tone and inflection, lol.

[logansrun]

User friendly.

"But most people are idiots."
Caius Cosades

To bad we have rules, then, huh?

perfect case in point. are the mods going to PM or publicly warn Caius?

[Musicman247]

User friendly.

lol, well-played.
however, your response perfectly highlights the shortsightedness of those who don't feel tes is dumbed-down.

marker toggles. don't open your journal. don't toggle off quick-travel. dead is dead toggle. keep all the h.u.d. toggles enabled. those are very meaningful game mechanics we're talking about.

you see, those particular idiot-proof, i mean, user-friendly aspects can all still be used. i, on the other hand, DON'T HAVE THE OPTION.

All of these (except the hud) can be accomplished by the user. Quest map markers can be turned off. You don't have to open your journal. You don't have to fast travel. When you die, start a new game Lots of people do it. It's all optional, so you can have the experience you want to. To me that's called flexibility in design, not idiot-proofing or dumbing down.

@logansrun: Unfortunately we can't, but we can warn users who take lines from a game out of context to try and belittle another user.

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

Yes, lots of dumbing down and cutting to appeal to a wider audience and lower common denominator of player.

[KryptonianBlood]

User friendly.

lol, well-played.
however, your response perfectly highlights the shortsightedness of those who don't feel tes is dumbed-down.

marker toggles. don't open your journal. don't toggle off quick-travel. dead is dead toggle. keep all the h.u.d. toggles enabled. those are very meaningful game mechanics we're talking about.

you see, those particular idiot-proof, i mean, user-friendly aspects can all still be used. i, on the other hand, DON'T HAVE THE OPTION.

All of these (except the hud) can be accomplished by the user. Quest map markers can be turned off. You don't have to open your journal. You don't have to fast travel. When you die, start a new game Lots of people do it. It's all optional, so you can have the experience you want to. To me that's called flexibility in design, not idiot-proofing or dumbing down.

@logansrun: Unfortunately we can't, but we can warn users who take lines from a game out of context to try and belittle another user.

You CAN NOT turn off map markers without consulting a guide every few minutes. Why? The NPC's don't give you directions. How is that flexibility? If they gave you directions so you could travel to quest locations without map markers and such, then you would have a point.

[logansrun]

[All of these (except the hud) can be accomplished by the user. Quest map markers can be turned off. You don't have to open your journal. You don't have to fast travel. When you die, start a new game Lots of people do it. It's all optional, so you can have the experience you want to. To me that's called flexibility in design, not idiot-proofing or dumbing down.

ahem, might I reiterate one of Dark Spark's posts pertaining to exactly this subject that they linked to on the very first page of this thread?
http://forums.uesp.net/viewtopic.php?f= ... im#p618372

@logansrun: Unfortunately we can't, but we can warn users who take lines from a game out of context to try and belittle another user.

bad, Caius, bad!

[Musicman247]

I have only heard of a couple of quests (via Dark Spark) that don't give you a clear direction on where to go. Most of the time the quest giver ends their explanation of the quest with a "here, let me mark your map" which makes sense in a real world situation. Even Morrowind had map markers, and the directions were written in your journal (and not the easiest things to follow sometimes).

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

I'd say dumbing down by cutting features is worse than the dumbing down of existing mechanics (like lack of direction/quest markers, or auto regen health).

[udubdawgs]

User friendly.

lol, well-played.
however, your response perfectly highlights the shortsightedness of those who don't feel tes is dumbed-down.

marker toggles. don't open your journal. don't toggle off quick-travel. dead is dead toggle. keep all the h.u.d. toggles enabled. those are very meaningful game mechanics we're talking about.

you see, those particular idiot-proof, i mean, user-friendly aspects can all still be used. i, on the other hand, DON'T HAVE THE OPTION.

All of these (except the hud) can be accomplished by the user. Quest map markers can be turned off. You don't have to open your journal. You don't have to fast travel. When you die, start a new game Lots of people do it. It's all optional, so you can have the experience you want to. To me that's called flexibility in design, not idiot-proofing or dumbing down.

@logansrun: Unfortunately we can't, but we can warn users who take lines from a game out of context to try and belittle another user.

quest markers can't be turned off without impacting the entire hud. they are all foolishly tied together. as well, the journal/instruction system is so horrid that you have to use the markers. all of the DiD, eat/sleep, fast-travel,etc. options are NOT in-game mechanics with CONSEQUENCES. there is no option prior to starting a game that forces you to play by those options. that is a huge difference that people always overlook. you can use the markers, but, i am forced to because the journal/quest/instructions/hud system is horrendous. i can play a DiD game, but, there is no in-game mechanic that forces me to. people who don't want to play a DiD game have that option available. i can eat/sleep, but, without consequences why bother?

in-game restrictions, consequences, limitations, rules and mechanics impact the actual gameplay. those who want to use their imagination ALWAYS can in a tes game. it's a great aspect of tes, but, it can be improved to support those who want a more challenging game.

plus, keep in mind, i'm only talking about these very basic aspects and NOT the actual gameplay mechanics that have been dumbed-down. like, say, no attributes, for example or, my decisions hardly impacting the world around me. or, less of just about everything.

[logansrun]

c'mon, seriously. not trying to be facetious or whatever but I totally agree with dawgs on this. it's not even debatable. you can slap whatever rosey euphemism on it you want for a warm fuzzy if it makes you feel better ("casualization", "user friendly") but at the end of the day, a rose by any other name ...

[udubdawgs]

I'd say dumbing down by cutting features is worse than the dumbing down of existing mechanics (like lack of direction/quest markers, or auto regen health).

i feel getting a quest and having a magic arrow tell you exactly where to go and having no risk of failure is handholding at its greatest. of course, if they eliminated them they'd have to actually have a good journal/instruction system. and, therefore, they dump it all and go the simplistic, magic marker route.

do you realize how much impact not having auto-regeneration would have on the game? or, not allowing potion spam? or, not allowing access to one's inventory during combat? or, having to listen to an npc's well-spoken quest instructions? or, not being able to reload a game if you clicked the DiD function? or, losing health and stamina, whatever, if you don't get the proper amount of sleep/food? or, toggling on a realistic weight/encumbrance system so you couldn't carry an ungodly amount of gear?

i could go on and on.

and, the thing is, i'm not asking them to take away YOUR HAND-HOLDING. i'm talking about allowing me to not play a dumbed-down game.

but, regardless, i'm sure i'll just have to go the p.c. route, since, i'm pretty confident that all future titles will continue the casual trend, lol.

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

I'd say dumbing down by cutting features is worse than the dumbing down of existing mechanics (like lack of direction/quest markers, or auto regen health).

i feel getting a quest and having a magic arrow tell you exactly where to go and having no risk of failure is handholding at its greatest. of course, if they eliminated them they'd have to actually have a good journal/instruction system. and, therefore, they dump it all and go the simplistic, magic marker route.

It is, but I can ignore quest markers (with the pros and cons of direction or lack thereof). I can't forgive mechanics that aren't even here anymore because PR tried to say we were too stupid to understand it.

[Musicman247]

As far as I'm aware neither Morrowind nor Oblivion had DiD options or a need to eat/sleep, so those aren't a part of the casualization of the series.

[udubdawgs]

As far as I'm aware neither Morrowind nor Oblivion had DiD options or a need to eat/sleep, so those aren't a part of the casualization of the series.

again, like i always respond when i hear your type of comment: where is the engenuity? the innovation? the creativity? where is the depth, complexity and sophistication? where is my hardcore and mature roleplaying game?

btw, DiD and eat/sleep have been in games for decades. as well, with auto-regen who needs to eat/sleep. again, that proves my point of view. morrowind was not auto-regen and sleeping at least had an actual in-game mechanic that was impacted. instead of eliminating it, why not IMPROVE it??

[Velvet LeChance]

Making the game more user friendly (/dumbing it down if you may) allows more people to access the game thus creating larger profit margins for Bethesda.

90% of gamers don't want to spend half an hour trekking through the gameworld trying to find the cave north of the horse-shoe lake due east of the painted rock.

I believe that Bethesda should create good journal system and allow questing without arrows etc. for the players who like our RPGs with a bit of difficulty but I can never see them getting rid of their current simplistic approach to add this (though I can see them allowing it to run along side it). Overcomplicating the game deteers players. Deterring players means less sales. Less sales are bad.

[House of the Wolf]

To take more of a macro-level point with regards to map markers, and quest pointers/indicators, and all similar functions: the majority of all games (not just Skyrim) in this current generation implement different versions of these functions. Games during Morrowind's generation mostly lacked these features (a few did not have them at all), and people pitched a fit because they didn't have them.

[logansrun]

ok, let's just put it this way. to this day I STILL play Morrowind. I STILL agonize over choices I make during character creation and how they might impact my experience and game play. I have almost NO desire to return to Oblivion. using the tactics and strategies I developed in Morrowind, with a few tweaks for the changes they implemented (nerfed) I easily beat the game without much effort at all. my kid tried Morrowind and still constantly asks me to help him and I constantly try to get him to go it alone to figure things out on his own like I did, but he tells me watching his friends play Skyrim how much easier it seemed and the completion time can be measured in weeks, not months or years. the Imperial City in Oblivion is roughly equivalent to one of Morrowind's expansions (Tribunal). etc.

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

Yeah the cutting and dumbing down is slowly ruining the franchise. TES is one of a kind but is heading more and more into generic RPG territory. There's enough linear and mindless games out there for the casuals and uninterested, we don't need to turn the ES into yet another.

[Br3admax]

Even irl, picking to use dagger won't ruin your life. You should be able to learn. Have you considered that maybe making the game too hard is breaking immersion?

[logansrun]

maybe, but even IRL, taking a dagger to a great sword fight is usually just plain dumb and a bad idea in general.

[udubdawgs]

ok, let's just put it this way. to this day I STILL play Morrowind. I STILL agonize over choices I make during character creation and how they might impact my experience and game play. I have almost NO desire to return to Oblivion. using the tactics and strategies I developed in Morrowind, with a few tweaks for the changes they implemented (nerfed) I easily beat the game without much effort at all. my kid tried Morrowind and still constantly asks me to help him and I constantly try to get him to go it alone to figure things out on his own like I did, but he tells me watching his friends play Skyrim how much easier it seemed and the completion time can be measured in weeks, not months or years. the Imperial City in Oblivion is roughly equivalent to one of Morrowind's expansions (Tribunal). etc.

that is it, exactly! my 360 broke and i'm currently playing morrowind. my daughter can barely follow me when i'm explaining things to her, but, she could easily play skyrim. skyrim plays itself and is basically a roleplaying sim. no decision really matters, the world is unaffected, the gameplay is agonizingly easy and you can't fail.

[Archer]

Thats what I have always thought. If the difficulty is just too high, I often rage-quit. And I assume that many others feel the same way.

maybe, but even IRL, taking a dagger to a great sword fight is usually just plain dumb and a bad idea in general.

Not if your faster.

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

If most of the cut mechanics (just from Ob even) were still in Skyrim, sales wouldn't have even been affected. ES fans would have bought it like they bought every other title they knew about and casuals and neophytes would have still bought it thinking they get to be Vikings that headshot dragons.

[udubdawgs]

If most of the cut mechanics (just from Ob even) were still in Skyrim, sales wouldn't have even been affected. ES fans would have bought it like they bought every other title they knew about and casuals and neophytes would have still bought it thinking they get to be Vikings that headshot dragons.

that is what i've been saying since after oblivion and all of its debates, lol.

the gaming industry is nowhere near like what it was when morrowind came out and that wasn't even that long ago. let alone, when i was growing up in the...

i really thought (um, foolishly) skyrim was going to re-implement the hardcore rpg aspects. why? because of how mainstream the industry is now. and, i figured bethsoft was smart enough to realize that casuals and newbies wouldn't have a clue and would still buy their game and allow the millions to be raked in.

as well, the handholding and dumbed-down aspects of games CAN STILL be available options. those trends and aspects are easy implementations.

[logansrun]

here's what I really think it boils down to is a different mindset between players. someone brought up immersion. to me that's just mindless entertainment and escapism, which is what seems to primarily interest most people nowadays. it's like sports entertainment, but the "old school" RPers from my generation played for more than that. we played for the challenge and the intellectual stimulation. not just dull eyed and dull witted mindless entertainment value. to me the difference in a good storyline in a classic RPG is akin to an epic novel. it's like the difference between tolkein and transformers.