Ulfric's Racism?

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Why would Khajiit or dunmer be in Solitude?

It's the capital of Skyrim and the strongest Imperial affiliated city. I'd imagine lore-wise it would be the most cosmopolitan and open to various cultures.

[Right-Hand-Of-Sithis]

Why would Khajiit or dunmer be in Solitude?

It's the capital of Skyrim and the strongest Imperial affiliated city. I'd imagine lore-wise it would be the most cosmopolitan and open to various cultures.

Well, as stated, there are very few Khajiit in Skyrim (in game, at least, but its supported by Ri'saad's comments). However, the Khajiit traders visit Solitude, and are still not permitted within the walls.

Most of the dunmer refugees stopped at the closest cities to them, ie Windhelm, Riften and Winterhold.

[CBR JGWRR]

Although they do say if they knew how things turned out the would have kept on going further.

[Right-Hand-Of-Sithis]

Although they do say if they knew how things turned out the would have kept on going further.

Indeed, but they didn't.

Thus the lesser numbers of Dunmer in Solitude (and most certainly less Dunmer Culture from whatever Dunmer are in Solitude).

However, Solitude may have some rich Breton Culture, and considering how it is the brightest and most stereotypically Medieval (like the Franks and Normans type medieval), I'd say that's the case.

[Br3admax]

That's not Breton Culture. Breton Culture is just a copied Imperial Culture. Real Breton Culture is sort of like elven/Forsworn Culture, but they switched to match their Imperial Cousins in Cyrodiil. Cyrodiilic Culture.

[Right-Hand-Of-Sithis]

That's not Breton Culture. Breton Culture is just a copied Imperial Culture. Real Breton Culture is sort of like elven/Forsworn Culture, but they switched to match their Imperial Cousins in Cyrodiil. Cyrodiilic Culture.

Hmm, I've made the judgement from the strong feudal system present (such as the various petty kingdoms vying for power, various chivalric orders etc) the French sounding names, and the description of a Breton celebration in 'Mystery of Talara' that High Rock would be reminiscent of the romantic, fantasy medieval world. Even the Name Breton cries out 'French'!

This, and comments from Anton Viran (from Daggerfall), suggest that the Imperials copied the Bretons (but on a much lower scale).

[Br3admax]

Read the Breton page on the wiki.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

The current Breton government is sort of like the Cyrodillic government, vaguely, but much less united. Even after the Miracle of Peace that more or less quelled the majority of dissent in the province, there are still strong regional nationalist sentiments among the various city-states of Greater Bretony. They are not a united people - not that the Nords, Cyrodills or Redguards are either, but especially the Bretons. Whereas you'll always find two or maybe three competing factions among the other human races, Bretons usually have around half a dozen, each shaking the others' hands while concealing daggers behind their backs.

[Right-Hand-Of-Sithis]

Read the Breton page on the wiki.

That pretty much proves my point doesn't it?

While the Aldmer maintained control of Tamriel, the Manmer lived as lower-class citizens, supporting their Elven brethren.

Thus Elven and Breton culture are separate.

Over time, the emerging Bretons absorbed the remaining Nordic and Imperial population in High Rock, and the land would be definitively Breton by the end of the First Era. Tiber Septim's Empire would later easily conquer the squabbling kingdoms that emerged during the Interregnum, but would find it impossible to truly squash the sectarian conflicts between them that hampered trade and prosperity

So the Bretons adsorbed the imperials into their culture (probably along with the Elves). The Imperials (and elves) probably had an input into the development of Breton culture. However, Cyrodiil has, historically, had some levels of unity (such as the Colovian resistance to the Alessian reforms, or their conflicts with the Aldmeri Dominion). High Rock is a mess of various sectarian noblemen squabbling for power, with unity appearing briefly on rare occasions.

The Bretons' largely agrarian and hierarchical society is feudal in nature. Most Breton cities are sprawling trade hubs, and most of the people are either middle-class peasants or destitute beggars...Though they have several paths to prosperity, becoming a nobleman by performing quests and services to curry favor with various rulers is considered the best way, which has created a cultural "quest obsession" amongst young Bretons.

As I said, fantasy feudal society.

[Hissien]

And I am going to say, this has what exactly to do with Ulfric Stormcloak?

[Right-Hand-Of-Sithis]

And I am going to say, this has what exactly to do with Ulfric Stormcloak?

Virtually nothing.

We could try and fit his comments about High Rock into it if you want.

[Hissien]

Or we could drop it and move back to the topic at hand.

[Marcus Vorenus]

Is Ulfric the racist or the Stormcloaks ?

[Br3admax]

snip

That made more opinionated than factual sense. Saying second class means they are in the same class system and thus culture. The were assimilated into the Empire from a Emperor, Talso, from High Rock. Most Emperors where Brteon. Breton Culture is like a little Imperial Culture. As Pilaf said.

And I am going to say, this has what exactly to do with Ulfric Stormcloak?

Everything.

I'm going to go off topic and say that Ulfric isn't really racists. He's just manipulative.

Is Ulfric the racist or the Stormcloaks ?

He made the group and sees almost every recruit. Why would they be mutually exclusive?

[SpikeSpeigel]

How long from the signing of the White-Gold Concordat and/or the Markarth Incident to Ulfric killing the High King? 25 years or so??
Ulfric did not start this rebellion as some knee-jerk reaction to not being able to worship Talos nor from his Imperial treatment after the Markarth incident.
Though, certainly he should have alot of his own animosity because his personal efforts in Great War and Markarth Incident were contradicted by the Empire. (signing of White-Gold and imprisonment, respectively)

Why did he wait so long to start the rebellion? Was it because he was sick of the Thalmor killing/torturing Talos worshippers throughout Skyrim...enough is enough??
Did his own capture/torture at the hands of the Thalmor when he was a young man slow his start of the rebellion? Maybe he had an inherent fear of the Thalmor and it's the bloodthirtsy racism of those Nords around him that helped fuel him into action.

Is he personally racist? I would say no. He does'nt seem like the greatest military tactician since he's been captured/arrested three times that we know of.(And he sang like a bird to the Thalmor! But he was really young and even back then, Elenwen must've been an experienced interrogator/water boarder)
He does not seem like a great Jarl/governor of his hold due to the way he deals with the one neutral hold in the game, Whiterun. He so easily goes to war with the city that is said to be most representative of Nord life in Skyrim and therefore unnecessarily puts the citizens of Windhelm at risk.

My summation of him is that he has popularity, a name, a Thu'um, and a cause. Those are his strengths. he's a flawed character like all of us. For him to deal with the racism by the Nords in his hold against the Dunmer would just simply be out of character. He's simply not capable of being all things to all people. By showing that he has realistic limitations is a big kudos to Bethesda. It should teach us much about how we view our politicians/idols.

[ZackyZombify]

Hard to say that Ulfric is racist when he houses the most "immigrants". Now, King Torygg was racist. Ahtar's dialogue about Jaree-Ra, "Filthy Argonian, wouldn't have even stepped foot in the city if the High King was still here."

[Mod-Loving Wood Elf]

Hard to say that Ulfric is racist when he houses the most "immigrants". Now, King Torygg was racist. Ahtar's dialogue about Jaree-Ra, "Filthy Argonian, wouldn't have even stepped foot in the city if the High King was still here."

I think Ahtar was more referring to the fact that Jaree-Ra was a thief and a trouble in the city, rather than the fact that he was an Argonian. Yes, Athar called Jaree-Ra filthy, but that doesn't mean the High King did.

[ZackyZombify]

Sure he's a thief. Then say filthy thief, not Argonian. Also, there's no beast races or dark elves in Solitude, which strengthens the thought of his racism.

[GoatLiver]

How long from the signing of the White-Gold Concordat and/or the Markarth Incident to Ulfric killing the High King? 25 years or so??
Ulfric did not start this rebellion as some knee-jerk reaction to not being able to worship Talos nor from his Imperial treatment after the Markarth incident.
Though, certainly he should have alot of his own animosity because his personal efforts in Great War and Markarth Incident were contradicted by the Empire. (signing of White-Gold and imprisonment, respectively)

I continue to be confused on certain points regarding the time-line of things. For example it appears as though the High King was only recently defeated by Ulfric because Alduin has only just returned as per the prophecy, the gate-guard in solitude is only just being publicly murdered for letting Ulfric leave and Elisif has not yet got help giving Torygg a proper Nord funeral AKA taking an amulet of Talos to a shrine. However there are many people that seem to be affected by the war for a long time before any of this happened. For example the guy who runs the general trader in Falkreath says he was previously a stormcloak untill he was injured in the fighting I believe he says years ago, and other people around the place like Vulwulf Snow-Shod in Riften talk about loosing family members to the war.


Anyway I think people who brand Ulfric as a racist are wrong. There are even a few Elves that live in Windhelm who don't think their treatment is as bad as its made out to be. For example a Dunmer farm-hand Faryl Atheron lives in Windhelm and will say things like "Farm work is hard work. It's good to relax when I can, but I still have to listen to my brothers harping about "injustices."" There is also another Elf at the stables who often says stuff like "The best way to win the Nord's respect is though hard work". I think a few of the Elves there see that the rest of them don't work or support Windhelm's war effort yet still receive free housing and then complain they are not treated fairly. Even the Argonians work the docks unloading ships...and sometimes things go missing.

There are no Dunmer in Solitude and I pick that city because its the home of the Empire in Skyrim, but if there were Dunmer there do you truly believe that the people of solitude would be any more accepting of them than the people in Windhelm? In Windhelm they have free housing ect, do you think the rich citizens that live in solitude would let them blemish their city with run-down buildings and display cultural Dunmer banners in stark contrast to the rest of their colourful vibrant city while they don't work and live for free? The same could be said for any other city in the game, while they don't have to deal with the problem themselves they are happy to scream injustice but if it was happening to them in their city it would be a different story.

Personally my biggest gripe with the Dunmer in Windhelm is that they don't support the Stormcloak war effort. One of the Dunmer women says the first time you walk into Windhelm "But we haven't taken a side because it's not our fight." I always see this as a "can't have your cake and eat it too" moment. What I mean is, you want to be treated equally then you take the good with the bad. You live in Windhelm you share in Windhelms problems. If you want to be part of the city then you want to be part of the war. Its like saying yes we accept living in and being part of the city and we do want to be treated equally but no we won't give anything back and no we won't share in the cities problems. They get free housing while people like Angrenor Once-Honored are reduced to begging in the streets after they gave up so much fighting and being injured in the war, that I can see an injustice in but not for the Dunmer.

[Hissien]

While most of that made sense, there is no evidence to suggest that they have free housing.

[SithisIsMyCopilot]

Anyway I think people who brand Ulfric as a racist are wrong.

I'm going to go ahead and quote my own post, since it was at the bottom of the last page:

The claim that Ulfric isnt racist because he just cares about Nords over any other race is patently absurd and speaks ill of anyone making those claims. It's like saying "I'm not fat, I just have a huge beer gut."

He's making a negative value judgement (These people are not Nords, therefore I don't care about them) based on race. That's called racism.

Part of the difficulties in modern society is dealing with racism stems from the fact that pretty much everyone worth listening to agrees that racism is a horrible thing. The problem is that a lot of people and institutions have at least a few latent or subconscious racist feelings. Since racism is agreed by civilized society to be a Bad Thing, calling them out on these attitudes is (subconsciously) equivalent to saying they are bad people, and the gut psychological reaction is to go on the defensive and rationalize the racist attitudes.

The same thing is happening here. Ulfrics personality and cause resonates with people, and if they admit that yes, Ulfric is racist, then they are (in their own mind) guilty of liking a Bad Person and are probably Bad People, and rationalize it away as not really racism.

In a way, the Nazis made it harder to deal with this kind of unconscious racism, because comparing anything to the Nazis is to measure it against evil incarnate.

Also, the dunmer live for free in Windhelm? Big ol [Citation Needed] dude.

[SilentPsycho]

Anyway I think people who brand Ulfric as a racist are wrong.

I'm going to go ahead and quote my own post, since it was at the bottom of the last page:

He's making a negative value judgement (These people are not Nords, therefore I don't care about them) based on race. That's called racism.

Actually, that's prejudice. Racism is the application of action upon prejudice.

[SithisIsMyCopilot]

Anyway I think people who brand Ulfric as a racist are wrong.

I'm going to go ahead and quote my own post, since it was at the bottom of the last page:

He's making a negative value judgement (These people are not Nords, therefore I don't care about them) based on race. That's called racism.

Actually, that's prejudice. Racism is the application of action upon prejudice.

He's got plenty of both, and you're not just splitting hairs, youre splitting monofilament there.

[SilentPsycho]

He's got plenty of both, and you're not just splitting hairs, youre splitting monofilament there.

Care to point out where? I've seen evidence of a prejudice on his part, but I'm yet to find ingame evidence of actual action on his part. Inaction doesn't really count, because it's hard to prove a negative. The closest I've seen him come was a discussion between himself and Jorlief, where he responds to being told that the Dunmer in the Gray Quarters were complaining. He responded along the lines of 'Ugh, those damn elves. When are they going to realise I have other things to handle right now, like the rest of Skyrim?'. This to me shows annoyance and slight prejudice, but not going into active racism.

Also, my point is relevant. There is a definite difference between prejudice and racism. Learn the difference, because merging the two just undermines the inherent seriousness of actual racism.

[Marelo]

Racism is prejudice with power behind it. Institutionalized racism is racism made "the norm" by cultures or governments.

The segregation of Windhelm is institutionalized racism, whether Ulfric explicitly dictated it or not. The fact that he doesn't do anything about it is in fact evidence of racism inherent in the power structures of Windhelm.