Spear Discussion

A place to discuss and ask questions about the fifth part of The Elder Scrolls series and its expansions
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Re: Spear Discussion

Post by NyarlathotepJr »

Lots of great ideas ... but back to spears.

Rieklings throw them. Characters can throw them. That's cool. They are of course more of a dart/javelin, but the basic animations are there.

Note that historically the spear was frequently, perhaps mostly, a 1H weapon. Spear and shield were amazingly effective and cheap. A 2m to 3m (or 6' to 10' ...) spear should outreach most other melee weapons out there.

The key of course is getting a half-dozen guards forming a spear wall. If they have magic-resisting shields, that might be tough for anyone to deal with.

Which of course may be the reason Bethesda is leery of spears. They are best used in formation, and getting AIs to do that may be hard for them to code. I'm not looking for an RTS level of game - though it would be cool to lead a group of folks in formation with spears against, say, a giant or bears.

A longer spear (4m+) used two-handed would be a pike in the Western tradition, again a formation weapon. My understanding is that in the Eastern tradition (China, Japan), things like the yari were used without shields and not in formation.

Classically (and pre-Classically) Western Asian folks used them in formation, but with archers right behind, so the shield wall would be like a portable protection for the guys with bows.

The point is that most of this involves formations of people, probably AIs - though I suppose in TES:O they could have a dozen players choose to take spear and shield, with mages on the flanks. Hey, that could be fun, and hard to beat.

If you read down to here, congrats, and my sympathies. :|

Oh wait. How about chariots? :wink:
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Re: Spear Discussion

Post by Pilaf The Defiler »

I suggest we petition Bethesda for a Muatra DLC, complete with milk finger special attack.
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Re: Spear Discussion

Post by foggymischief »

I'm personally fine without the spears, but they would be nice to have just for the heck of it.
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Re: Spear Discussion

Post by Pilaf The Defiler »

Of all the stuff in the Gamejam video, I was most excited about the Castlevania style flail. If I had to pick between a spear and a flail I'd go with the flail or whip every time. Spears are nice though.
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Re: Spear Discussion

Post by NyarlathotepJr »

Pilaf The Defiler wrote:Of all the stuff in the Gamejam video, I was most excited about the Castlevania style flail. If I had to pick between a spear and a flail I'd go with the flail or whip every time. Spears are nice though.
Flail or whip. Cool, but I imagine the animations are a nightmare.

Playing the other night, I noticed that in Dragonborn the Rieklings actually jab with their spears. Maybe it is time to take one of their spears and try using it ...
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Re: Spear Discussion

Post by CBR JGWRR »

Actually, they don't, it's still thrown, if you look carefully you see the spear disappear then reappear as he gets another one...
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Re: Spear Discussion

Post by Argonanza »

NyarlathotepJr wrote: Playing the other night, I noticed that in Dragonborn the Rieklings actually jab with their spears. Maybe it is time to take one of their spears and try using it ...
Riekling spears...

...

...are used as arrows by the player.
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Re: Spear Discussion

Post by CBR JGWRR »

On the plus side, it means your riekling follower(s) can use arrows as spears, and it seems get bonus damage from it.

And they can equip armour...
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Re: Spear Discussion

Post by Yaije »

I wonder if rieklings will pick up arrows and use them as spears. like if I leave a bunch of daedric and dragonbone arrows around will they eventually pick them up to use?
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Re: Spear Discussion

Post by Br3admax »

They throw the arrows, but they do not fight with them as melee weapons. They will however use two-handed swords.
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Re: Spear Discussion

Post by House of the Wolf »

I hate the little buggers...the noise(s) they make remind me too much of the little Ewoks from Star Wars VI. Even the design of the spears remind me of the cute insane little [&@%!].

On topic, though, I'd hate to see Skyrim turned into Dynasty Warriors with any ridiculous spear/halberd "techniques".
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Re: Spear Discussion

Post by Elenath »

Chariots would be awesome! I'm on board.

Then again, it would probably end up as an even more awkward version of mounted combat, which is awkward enough already...

If it could be well implemented, it would be wonderful. I suspect this is one of those highly far fetched dreams, though.
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Re: Spear Discussion

Post by NyarlathotepJr »

House of the Wolf wrote:I hate the little buggers...the noise(s) they make remind me too much of the little Ewoks from Star Wars VI. Even the design of the spears remind me of the cute insane little [&@%!].

On topic, though, I'd hate to see Skyrim turned into Dynasty Warriors with any ridiculous spear/halberd "techniques".
As for spear technique of Rieklings, I have carefully observed them and they do indeed make slashing and jabbing/poking motions. These look a lot like the animations from Morrowind. My surmise, then, is that it would be possible for PCs to also have these, at some point in the future.

Dynasty Warriors. Reminds me of my L77 character wading into a crowd of Rieklings. :?
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Re: Spear Discussion

Post by Pilaf The Defiler »

Br3admax wrote:They throw the arrows, but they do not fight with them as melee weapons. They will however use two-handed swords.
I equipped mine with a Legendary Dragonbone Greatsword enchanted with Chaos and Shock damage (My Nord is a master crafter, enchanter and alchemist.). He's so adorable when he's slaying Dragons and giants. I'd take a picture of him if cameras existed.
NyarlathotepJr wrote:
Dynasty Warriors. Reminds me of my L77 character wading into a crowd of Rieklings. :?
No Tamrielic spear wielder will ever match Zhou Yun.
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Re: Spear Discussion

Post by The SheoDovah »

The Legion would have used spears and shields to harrass the army that tried to breach their front line before showering them with arrows so they should have appeared in Skyrim. I suspect the nords would have used spears at some point to compensat for the lack of ranged attacks or to hold the line. But it is a shame that they didn't include them in Skyrim and when they did include it in Dragonborn, they are basically glorifed arrows, from what i've heard. I suspect TES6 will see the return of them as demand is increasing and they tend to listen to their userbase.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Legion used chariots in the next game as bethesda is slowly turning them into the Roman Legion. Although if chariots are in the next game, i hope only the legion will have them as i don't fancy running away from a bandit who has one whilst avoiding arrows and doing the fishstick. As well as dodging lighting bolts from the thalmor.
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Re: Spear Discussion

Post by NyarlathotepJr »

Thelastdovah wrote:The Legion would have used spears and shields to harrass the army that tried to breach their front line before showering them with arrows so they should have appeared in Skyrim. I suspect the nords would have used spears at some point to compensat for the lack of ranged attacks or to hold the line. But it is a shame that they didn't include them in Skyrim and when they did include it in Dragonborn, they are basically glorifed arrows, from what i've heard. I suspect TES6 will see the return of them as demand is increasing and they tend to listen to their userbase.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Legion used chariots in the next game as bethesda is slowly turning them into the Roman Legion. Although if chariots are in the next game, i hope only the legion will have them as i don't fancy running away from a bandit who has one whilst avoiding arrows and doing the fishstick. As well as dodging lighting bolts from the thalmor.
You are right, the imperials are definitely Roman-esque (so to speak). But the Romans in the Republic and Empire did not AFAIK use chariots. They left that to the barbarians. A wagon with a ballista might make sense.

Note also that only you, the PC, get to use a weapon from horseback. I suppose Bethesda has not figured out the AI for that. It's probably messy.
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Re: Spear Discussion

Post by The SheoDovah »

NyarlathotepJr wrote:
Thelastdovah wrote:The Legion would have used spears and shields to harrass the army that tried to breach their front line before showering them with arrows so they should have appeared in Skyrim. I suspect the nords would have used spears at some point to compensat for the lack of ranged attacks or to hold the line. But it is a shame that they didn't include them in Skyrim and when they did include it in Dragonborn, they are basically glorifed arrows, from what i've heard. I suspect TES6 will see the return of them as demand is increasing and they tend to listen to their userbase.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Legion used chariots in the next game as bethesda is slowly turning them into the Roman Legion. Although if chariots are in the next game, i hope only the legion will have them as i don't fancy running away from a bandit who has one whilst avoiding arrows and doing the fishstick. As well as dodging lighting bolts from the thalmor.
You are right, the imperials are definitely Roman-esque (so to speak). But the Romans in the Republic and Empire did not AFAIK use chariots. They left that to the barbarians. A wagon with a ballista might make sense.

Note also that only you, the PC, get to use a weapon from horseback. I suppose Bethesda has not figured out the AI for that. It's probably messy.
The Legion may end up with chariots after the events of Skyrim as they most likely are aware that they have to adapt in order to defeat the dominion who most likely know the legion's current tatics. I can see them developing a few chariots to test out on bandits in Skyrim before deciding if it's an asset to them or not.

Bethesda has no excuse for not including spears as they are making the Legion become the roman legion thus spears would fit right in. Although i can see the Nords being the first race to develop chariots due to their love of weapons. I hope in TES6, we will see enemies on horseback that use mounted combat and that the mounted combat is decent.
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Re: Spear Discussion

Post by prussia1 »

I'm knew so I'm just going to say I wished that they had added a pilum type javelin or at least a Roman cavalry spear type weapon.
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Re: Spear Discussion

Post by Pilaf The Defiler »

prussia1 wrote:I'm knew so I'm just going to say I wished that they had added a pilum type javelin or at least a Roman cavalry spear type weapon.
Those certainly exist in the lore. The Imperials use spear walls and phalanx tactics in some of the books and such. I can sorta see why they wouldn't include lances or mounted halberds in the games, though. The focus on a single player RPG usually doesn't stray into cavalry charges or mounted combat in general.
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Re: Spear Discussion

Post by ZackyZombify »

I've said it before and I'll say it again, people are moaning and groaning about lack of spears. When and if they are introduced, most of the people that wanted spears with start to moan and groan about them not making them right. Then will continue to moan and groan until they get over it or move on to another weapon or armor they want implemented. That's what moaners and groaners do.. Moan and groan.
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Re: Spear Discussion

Post by Vahrukiv »

To me, BGS can do no wrong. Literally, whatever they decide to do, i'm happy with.
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Re: Spear Discussion

Post by Br3admax »

Pilaf The Defiler wrote:
prussia1 wrote:I'm knew so I'm just going to say I wished that they had added a pilum type javelin or at least a Roman cavalry spear type weapon.
Those certainly exist in the lore. The Imperials use spear walls and phalanx tactics in some of the books and such. I can sorta see why they wouldn't include lances or mounted halberds in the games, though. The focus on a single player RPG usually doesn't stray into cavalry charges or mounted combat in general.
Yeah, spears are the most effective weapon of medieval warfare, when working in a group. When alone, they leave you open for long periods of time to be attacked.
Vahrukiv wrote:To me, BGS can do no wrong. Literally, whatever they decide to do, i'm happy with.
Bethesda has done so much wrong that it is said. Even the lore has begun to contradict itself. Needless retcon has taken place multiple times. Being loyal to company no matter what they do is a very dangerous thing.
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Re: Spear Discussion

Post by Vahrukiv »

Br3admax wrote:Bethesda has done so much wrong that it is said. Even the lore has begun to contradict itself. Needless retcon has taken place multiple times. Being loyal to company no matter what they do is a very dangerous thing.
and like i said, i don't really care. I enjoy their games more than any else on the market, so i can place my loyalty in them w/o fear of being disappointed. I don't expect others to do that, but my own personal belief is, "they got this." It's blind fanboyism, i admit, but that doesn't change my position. And i also admit, i am biased. i don't have this much loyalty to any other company on this planet, and i accept that.

But, i'll say it again: "they got this."
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Re: Spear Discussion

Post by Pilaf The Defiler »

Till, bruised and bitten to the bone
And taught by pain and fear,
He learned to deal the far-off stone,
And poke the long, safe spear.
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