Imperial Legion

[brastaseptim]

I've always wondered one thing in Skyrim- if the Legion consisted of more than ten men per battle, how would it operate? How would it actually be organised for a full-scale battle? As it's based loosely off of Ancient Rome, I would assume it's divided into Centuriae and Cohors (for those who know nothing about Roman history, that's roughly 100 men and 500 men). I also wondered- what the Hell is the armour they're wearing supposed to be? Scale mail? Lorica Segmentata? And what would General Tullius's position be? Considering he's Military governor of Skyrim, I would assume a Proconsul- but I might be wrong. By all means, discuss.

[SajuukKhar]

Tullius is a general.

[brastaseptim]

I'm aware of that. He's also commander of the Skyrim Legions and the Military Governor for Skyrim.

[ZackyZombify]

Who cares, it's the legion.

-Paid for by Ulfric Stormcloak

[Believe]

As for their armour, to me it just looks like your basic Leather. Some with chain-mail added on, some without.

As for the battle tactics for larger scale battles, I have no idea.

General Tullius' to me, has always just been a high-ranking General, and as he commands the Skyrim Legions, it makes sense for him to be the Military Governor, I don't think his official rank or anything has changed...

[Airos]

I've always wondered one thing in Skyrim- if the Legion consisted of more than ten men per battle, how would it operate? How would it actually be organised for a full-scale battle? As it's based loosely off of Ancient Rome, I would assume it's divided into Centuriae and Cohors (for those who know nothing about Roman history, that's roughly 100 men and 500 men).

While the Empire may be thematically based on the Roman Empire, there's also enough difference between them that it's difficult to make assumptions, (such as the East Empire Company, which is based on the real world East India Company and was founded in the year 1600). They could very well organize their military differently. I expect that Elder Scrolls: Online may shed a bit more light into the military structure of the Empire, even if they're not currently listed as a player faction, (gotta leave something for the expansion packs).

And what would General Tullius's position be? Considering he's Military governor of Skyrim, I would assume a Proconsul- but I might be wrong. By all means, discuss.

He's the XO.

[The SheoDovah]

The Imperial Legion would form a front line to keep attackers at bay. The legionaries at the front would use spears and shields to keep them at bay whilst the ones behind them would help to push the enemy back whilst the archers pelt them with arrows and the battle mages would use destruction magic to split groups of enemies up. Should the front line fail, the legion would push forward and would often overwhelm the enemy due to their size and their training. If they couldn't form a front line, they would ambush the enemy or leave a small battlion as bait for the enemy then flank them from both sides or use their mages to devestate the charging enemy. They rarely charge towards an enemy and instead prefer to wait for the enemy to waste their energy by charging at their wall of shields.

If they were forced to fight in small groups, they would use the shield and sword tatic of block, block, counter then kill. I don't think the Legion would use horses as they would be an easy target unless it was a distraction. Such as they send a few men on horseback to draw the enemy's attention, then fire a volley of arrows at the enemy.

If they had to besiege a city, their battlemages would set fire to any crops that are near by as well as flinging fireballs at the city gates and either wait it out or use their battles to blast down the gate. All of their tatics proved to be useless against the Dominion as they tore entire battlions apart with destruction magic and were able to counter the legion. But took moderate losses the first time. In the battle of the IC, i suspect Titus came up with some new tatics whilst hiding in Skyrim as well as the obvious ones that we know about. Such as tricking the dominion into thinking a part of the legion was still in hammerfell etc..

As for their armour, it looks like for the light armour, it's just leather with a shirt underneath for comfort. Medium, most like leather and chainmail along with a shirt underneath. Heavy armour is leather with a steel heavy plate chest piece and most likely chainmail as legionaires in heavy armour would be a high target for the enemy due to the threat they pose. Battlemages would most likely wear enchanted light chainmail armour hidden under their legion robes. We don't see that ingame due to battlemages being recalled to Cyrodiil or at least i like to think they did instead of Bethesda being lazy and not including them. I suspect their old heavy bronze plate armour was made out of iron but only served to protect Cyrodiil's road thus not needing armour that is designed for an army.

They most likely started to replace their entire inventory during Titus's 1 rule and made some minor modifactions after the defeat of the IC during Titus's 2 rule to withstand the dominion's magical attacks. It is possible that the legion have stopped using spears as a whole as i recall Crossbows being dropped by the legion during the late 3rd era/early 4th era due to bows proving to be more effective in the hands of the legion.

Tullius is both general and mililtary governor in Skyrim. He was appointed the post of Skyrim's general a few months before Alduin returned as well as military governor. The post of Military governor is responisble for the safety of Skyrim. As well as ensuring that every town is protected. And is an advisor to the high king/queen although we can all see that Elsif is just a puppet and Tullius is the real force behind the crown before the Civil War is won. I wonder if the last general and governor was killed by the stormcloaks or replaced due to how ineffective the legion was at the time?

[CorneliusTullius]

The Imperial Legion does use some equipment based off of the Romans, such as the Galea (helmet). However in-game it is leather, in the Real-life it was mostly metal. I was partially saddened that we did not have the lorica segmentata or the lorica hamata in this game, however, plenty of mods fixed that . If you want, I could link you to the one I use on NexusMods

In the case of Proconsul, I assumed that General Tullius would have had that position. I have always imagined him as some sort of Iulius Caesar, and Skyrim as Gaul (in spirit), of course that whole analogy does not work completely, however as Airos said, the Empire draws its influences from many parts of history.

About the small number of units, I've always imagined that towns and battles were bigger than they were. For example, Whiterun, a "trading hub" in the the center of the province, you only have circa 50 people living there? So, I just usually pretend there are more people in general. Of course I feel like the current battles and town sizes are limited by current level of technology across the board.

[The SheoDovah]

The battle of Whiterun would have been massive, Mostly 1000-2000 on each side. And a drunk Dovahkiin telling both armies to stop battling due to his hangover. Although Ulfric should have had his men find another way into whiterun thus gaining the advantage as the legion would not expect his forces to come into whiterun via a hidden entrance. Although i suspect they would bump into the Companions who wouldn't take kindly to someone using their hidden tunnel to invade Whiterun. Whiterun is a lot bigger then what we see ingame due to hardware reasons.

I suspect the legion would have spilt their men into the different districts so if one falls, they can still hold the rest. Provided the companions don't decide to teach the stormcloaks a lesson for disturbing their feast. I think Whiterun has a population of 500-3000 people due to it being Skyrim's trading hub.

I suspect the battle would have been interrupted by a dragon in some versions of it told by bards because nothing says an epic battle unless a dragon decides to try the Imperial-Stormcloak all you can eat buffet.(disclaimer: Dragons may be eaten by the dovahkiin, Whiterun is not responsible of that happens) I suspect the legion would have formed a wall of shields at the drawbridge whilst having their archers pick off the stormcloaks. I suspect their battlemages weren't needed due to the risk of setting whiterun on fire and i don't think Balgruuf would like having his city set on fire by the people who are protecting it. That and nords tend to kill if a city of theirs is set on fire.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

The Imperial Legion does use some equipment based off of the Romans, such as the Galea (helmet). However in-game it is leather, in the Real-life it was mostly metal. I was partially saddened that we did not have the lorica segmentata or the lorica hamata in this game, however, plenty of mods fixed that . If you want, I could link you to the one I use on NexusMods

We sorta did in a way. A lot of people who apparently never examined Samurai armor in any detail claim the Blades stuff is "Samurai Armor", apparently just because they wield Japanese style swords, but their armor is very Byzantine.

In the case of Proconsul, I assumed that General Tullius would have had that position. I have always imagined him as some sort of Iulius Caesar, and Skyrim as Gaul (in spirit), of course that whole analogy does not work completely, however as Airos said, the Empire draws its influences from many parts of history.

Skyrim is not some subject country of the Empire like Hammerfell or Morrowind. It was never conquered. There was never a treaty or armistice. The closest person to a Potentate or Proconsul would be the High King, since the Nords willingly liberated Cyrodill and lent so many of their troops to its Legions during its foundation. If anything Skyrim is on near equal footing to Cyrodill within their Empire. It's true that the High King is in essence an Imperial subject, but he or she is almost always a Nord or at least part Nord and always rules his or her own people. Tullius is a military leader only.

About the small number of units, I've always imagined that towns and battles were bigger than they were. For example, Whiterun, a "trading hub" in the the center of the province, you only have circa 50 people living there? So, I just usually pretend there are more people in general. Of course I feel like the current battles and town sizes are limited by current level of technology across the board.

There have been multiple developer statements in the past about these games being a scaled down representation of Tamriel as a fantasy setting. There's obviously thousands of people in a city like Whiterun or Solitude.

[Alnevar Odai]

http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Art_of_War_Magic -tactics
http://uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Ordo_Legionis -basic legion outfitting in Morrowind
http://uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Battle_of_Sancre_Tor -battle and siege
http://uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Manual_of_Armor -what armor is used by what unit
http://uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Manual_of_Arms -legion officers guide to weapons
http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War -summary of the Great War

These will have the most fruitful information. There are battle scenes and political machinations at work in the 2920 and Wolf Queen series as well as the refugees, but they dont really look into the successful military tactics of the legion, rather were they failed and from the political perspectives. There are battle scenes in Mixed unit tactics, Mirror, Ice and Chitin and many other books, but they arent all Imperial strategy and they some dont mention tactics at all. To be honest, in a world with magic, Roman-style approaches are limited. Instead armies breath underwater and march below lakes, illusion spells turn entire armies against themselves, or the dragon break happens and 5 time-parallel outcomes occur at the same time.

The legion actually seems to be the typical LOTR style battle. March in big orcs with hammers first. Pilus and scripii second. With a fireball here or there.

[ArmchairCommander]

It woulda kicked ass, that's how.

[Arterion]

General Tullius = Publius Quinctilius Varus
Ulfric Stormcloak = Arminius

Stormcloak Rebellion = Battle of the Teutoburg Forest


The whole plot is quite simple, Tullius is a veteran general sent to bring order to Skyrim while Ulfric is a former Imperial Legion officer turned rebel and traitor. The whole thing is a tribute to the famous battle above.

Considering the political status of the Imperial Legion and its commanding general in Skyrim we can assume that Tullius has a rank equivalent to the roman Proconsul.

[Br3admax]

General Tullius = Publius Quinctilius Varus
Ulfric Stormcloak = Arminius

Stormcloak Rebellion = Battle of the Teutoburg Forest


The whole plot is quite simple, Tullius is a veteran general sent to bring order to Skyrim while Ulfric is a former Imperial Legion officer turned rebel and traitor. The whole thing is a tribute to the famous battle above.

Considering the political status of the Imperial Legion and its commanding general in Skyrim we can assume that Tullius has a rank equivalent to the roman Proconsul.

This why we have an Italian on the forums. They got this Roman stuff down pat. Now you guys know which side to choose.

[ArmchairCommander]

Imperial?

[Br3admax]

No.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

If nothing else, I could make the argument that the Empire has done more for Skyrim than the Stormcloaks ever had - if only because it's been around far, far longer, but that debate is played out by now.

I personally don't draw a distinction between Skyrim and the Empire, myself. Skyrim is part of the Empire and always has been, and the Empire wouldn't exist without Skyrim. The humans in Cyrodill would still be in elven chains. On the other hand, the Dark Elves or Redguards might have stomped all over the other human nations in the past if not for Cyrodill. They're like an old married couple.

[Arterion]

I forsee the defeat of the Stormcloaks in proper Boudica style. Trampled under the forward marching legions of disciplined and ruthless Imperials.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Watling_Street - for those interested how the battle was fought...

[Pilaf The Defiler]

For anyone pointing out that I seemingly didn't include Redguards in "other human nations" above, while they're technically human and not Mer or Beastfolk, they're not descended from Nedes or Atmorans like all the other human races are. Their blood lineage is a mystery as it currently stands. They're certainly related but not closely so. It's unfortunate that there are racist implications of this based on their skin color, but that's simply the lore as it exists in the games. They certainly didn't waste any time slaughtering Bretons and Colovians when they first arrived in Tamriel, that's for sure. Very long, bloody history of animosity there. I suspect the Empire will face sterner resistance from the descendents of Yokuda in the future than those of Atmora.

[Br3admax]

Not really racist at all, you know. In this world the Spirits are the Homo sapiens.

[Derp53]

I forsee the defeat of the Stormcloaks in proper Boudica style. Trampled under the forward marching legions of disciplined and ruthless Imperials.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Watling_Street - for those interested how the battle was fought...

It seems to Romans were the [&@%!] in this situation, the uprising is certainly understandable seeing as how the romans completely broke the agreement and humiliated the Iceni people.....

[Arterion]

Well you cannot say that the romans were the good guys but the sheer effectiveness of their discipline and training regimen is more than apparent in this battle. Gotta love the Wedge Formation

[Derp53]

That is true, the romans had admirable military strategy

[CorneliusTullius]

General Tullius = Publius Quinctilius Varus
Ulfric Stormcloak = Arminius

Stormcloak Rebellion = Battle of the Teutoburg Forest


The whole plot is quite simple, Tullius is a veteran general sent to bring order to Skyrim while Ulfric is a former Imperial Legion officer turned rebel and traitor. The whole thing is a tribute to the famous battle above.

Considering the political status of the Imperial Legion and its commanding general in Skyrim we can assume that Tullius has a rank equivalent to the roman Proconsul.

I wouldn't say it is exactly like Teutoburg, considering the Imperial Legion didn't lose 3 legions and 6 cohorts to Ulfric yet. And Tullius shows himself to be rather competent unlike Varus, especially in the beginning when he captures Ulfric near Darkwater crossing. However I do believe that the comparison between Arminius and Ulfric is valid.