Ulfric Stormcloak-A dormant Thalmor asset???

[Avenger1008]

According to the Thalmor dossier on Ulfric Stormcloak found in the Thalmor Embassy, Ulfric was, to a certain extent, willingly working with the Thalmor.

What are your thoughts on this?

Can the dossier be accepted as truth? Or is it just Thalmor lies?

Did Ulfric cause the Markarth Incident on their orders? Or was it actually his choice?

[Derp53]

The thalmor dossier called Ulfric an asset because of the fact he's causing an uprsing in Skyrim. But they also advise extreme caution when dealing with Ulfric meaning that in no way would Ulfric conditionally ever work with the Thalmor. Also he was captured and interrogated by the thalmor during the Great War which is another reason they call him an asset, because they were able to extract information out of him.

Regarding the Markarth incident, that was entirely Ulfric's free will. The thalmor had no actual control over him at any point after his imprisonment, assuming that the thalmor had any direct involvment with the incitement of the Markarth incident is foolish

[Avenger1008]

"After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset.The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact."

That's what I thought, but the way the Thalmor say it in the dossier sounds like Ulfric was willingly, if not reluctantly, working with them. Besides, I wouldn't put it past the Thalmor of being behing the Incident. I'm just a little bit confused about all of it.

It's almost like Communism in our own universe. Once you're captured and interrogated by them, it's hard to believe they didn't break you and that you aren't currently working with them.

[Derp53]

Is there a source for that? All in game and lore proof point to Ulfric despising the Thalmor vehemently, and if you look at the circumstances and agreements that involved the Forsworn and the Jarl of Markath you'll notice that Ulfric wasn't some Thalmor sleeper agent

[Avenger1008]

The quote comes from the dossier the Thalmor have on Ulfric. Which, coming from the Thalmor, doesn't exactly scream trustworthy.

I know this is all very far-fetched.

And I'm not saying Ulfric doesn't hate the Thalmor, but that he reluctantly, for some reason, worked with them at some point.

[Derp53]

he was captured during the Great War and interrogated, you know how the thalmor are with mind games and whatnot. If you really want to find out for yourself just read into the lore and make your own decision.

[Baloth-Kul]

This is always a point I use when arguing that the Empire is the best bet, over the Stormcloaks.

His hand was forced, to cooperate, but even so, it shows that the man is weak, that he values himself over his people and his lands. If the next war with the Thalmor was going badly, he would sell out his people to save his own skin. Again.

He wouldn't help them again unless he was in a tight spot. Which does not speak well of his character, at all.
-----
When he was captured and what not, his life was in their hands. Now, he has an army between him and them. He won't cooperate with them unless they gain an advantage over the Stormcloaks. That's what I'm saying.

...Yep, I'm an adamant Empire supporter. That's just *one* reason why, as the Dunmer farmers who go to join the Legion say, "a united Empire is better for everyone."

[Chaos the N'wah]

1. Nothing in the dossier explicitly states in what way they "made contact" with Ulfric or that he is anything beyond just being useful because a civil war/Markarth Incident in Skyrim is/was beneficial to the Dominion
2. Information taken from interrogation does in no way equate to pure self-serving (especially when it's clear that they still had him in holding after the fact)
3. Even assuming 2 was false and he did sell info for his own hide, the Empire sold parts of Hammerfell to save itself (parallel scenarios in quite a few ways)

[Avenger1008]

It's obvious though that they didn't consider him an asset just because of the interrogation or even because he was carrying on the civil war. Just the fact that they specifically state that he proved his worth after the war should imply that he was working alongside the elves. And as Baloth stated, Ulfric didn't have the Stormcloaks to protect him until after the Markarth Incident, which is also when Ulfric became an "uncooperative, dormant asset."

If you think about it, it's not too hard to believe that Ulfric would work with the Thalmor when it would be painfully clear that they could dispose of him on a whim; if they deemed it necessary.

[Medomé]

Can the dossier be accepted as truth? Or is it just Thalmor lies?

It's a top-secret document meant for the eyes of high-ranking Thalmor, not a piece of propaganda. It can be accepted as the truth to the best of the knowledge of Elenwen and co.

[Baloth-Kul]

1. Regardless of how exactly it happened, they still used him as a pawn.
2. ... ...Wat. Sure it is. Someone hurts you, you want it to stop. They say give up your allies, you say okay. That is self-serving. --There is nothing else to indicate that it was *not* purely self-serving. Perhaps he broke when they threatened the lives of some other people, but there is absolutely no evidence to even *suggest* that. ...Why *wouldn't* they continue to have him in holding? If somebody gives you useful information, keep them around a bit longer. They might have more, and if they get released before you can put that information to use, it gives their allies chance to counteract some of the damage done when Ulfric rejoins them and tells them that he squealed.
3. For the greater good. One man refusing to cooperate means just that one man dies. An empire refusing to cooperate means many men and woman, many INNOCENTS, would die, and the survivors would have the Thalmor's strictest laws and regulations forced upon them, with no political force in between to protect the citizens of what would have been *the former Empire*. Ulfric saved his own hide. The Empire saved many thousands of lives, and lives to fight another day.

*I hope that this doesn't sound at all mocking, or rude at all. Just presenting facts and stuff, as I see it. Not arguing or anything. :3

[philfredobob]

i always thought that when they said ''Asset'' they meant he was useful

i dont think Ulfric is secretly working for the Aldmerri Dominion, i think that they basicly meant that because he is causing this civil war and thus weakening the power of the empire and the power of his own Forces, he is useful to the Dominion, because they can come in and sweep up the remains after they are done.

[Stormborn]

I pretty much agree with Phil. When I first read then book I did believe Ulfric was a secret Thalmor Agent for a while. On reflection though I think he is basically weaking the Empire with his civil war and alienating support for humans with his racist beliefs.

[Mr.Argonian]

The Thalmor see him as a hostile ally, sort of a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". The Thalmor know the Stormcloaks have no chance of defeating them, but the Empire do. So they want to let the two fight each, weakening the only enemy that has a chance of defeating them.

If you have spent five seconds with Ulfric you can see he would never work with the Thalmor.

And on his interrogation, he ,ay have given information, but we don't know the methods used on him. Extreme torture methods like starvation, dehydration, solitary confinement, freezing and boiling temperatures. Hell they could have tortured and killed his own men in front of him. Sure he gave away information, but every man talks eventually. Unless someone is rescued, they will always talk.

[CBR JGWRR]

Can the dossier be accepted as truth? Or is it just Thalmor lies?

It's a top-secret document meant for the eyes of high-ranking Thalmor, not a piece of propaganda. It can be accepted as the truth to the best of the knowledge of Elenwen and co.

This.

Ulfric is doing exactly what they want, almost certainly (at 99.99999999999...% certain) without knowing he is - if he did realise it, he would drop the war immediately. Galmar wouldn't perhaps, but he would bow to Ulfric's judgement.

He, while dispiseable in some ways, isn't a fool.

[OblivionDuruza]

Or is it just Thalmor lies?

What incentive would the Thalmor have to lie on their own Dossier? They did not intend for it to be stolen, they were unaware that the Dovakiin or other Blades would infiltrate them. Have to agree with Medomé on this one. That being said, I don't believe Ulfric is actually working with them, just being manipulated by them.

[The SheoDovah]

Ulfric is helping the Thalmor by fighting the legion even though he is unaware of it. If he did know that by fighting the legion was helping the Thalmor, he would call a truce or try to make peace with the legion as he depises the Thalmor. The legion is a major threat to the dominion so they will try to ensure that Ulfric wins as the Stormcloaks are just a bunch of nords whereas the legion is an army of hardened warriors that have been trained to do one thing, kill the enemy. They barely managed to defeat the dominion but at the same time, they caused the dominion to stop the great war. The Thalmor probably supply both sides with some important intel to keep the war going.

The Thalmor will only interfer in the Civil War if Tullius or Ulfric is about to be killed hence their presence at Helgen and i suspect Elewen was trying to get Ulfric released into their custody who would "escape" later. The Dragonborn managed to put a stop to it thus ensuring that he is the Thalmor's most wanted target so they waste resources on trying to kill him which weakens them due to 100/200 strike teams being sent to kill him.

It would have been interesting to give Ulfric the Thalmor Dossier on him as it could have been a neutral way of stopping the war instead of having to pick one side or let it go on forever. I suspect the Thalmor will have Ulfric/Tullius killed to cause a bit of a stir whilst they plan to launch their attack on Skyrim. As attacking whilst Skyrim is ready for war is a risky move due to how dangerous the nords can be if you try to invade them. Although i suspect Skyrim would most likely be heavily damaged. Suspect the nords would win due to them being famous for being excellent warriors. That and almost every nord can handle a weapon.

[Chaos the N'wah]

1. Regardless of how exactly it happened, they still used him as a pawn.
2. ... ...Wat. Sure it is. Someone hurts you, you want it to stop. They say give up your allies, you say okay. That is self-serving. --There is nothing else to indicate that it was *not* purely self-serving. Perhaps he broke when they threatened the lives of some other people, but there is absolutely no evidence to even *suggest* that. ...Why *wouldn't* they continue to have him in holding? If somebody gives you useful information, keep them around a bit longer. They might have more, and if they get released before you can put that information to use, it gives their allies chance to counteract some of the damage done when Ulfric rejoins them and tells them that he squealed.
3. For the greater good. One man refusing to cooperate means just that one man dies. An empire refusing to cooperate means many men and woman, many INNOCENTS, would die, and the survivors would have the Thalmor's strictest laws and regulations forced upon them, with no political force in between to protect the citizens of what would have been *the former Empire*. Ulfric saved his own hide. The Empire saved many thousands of lives, and lives to fight another day.

*I hope that this doesn't sound at all mocking, or rude at all. Just presenting facts and stuff, as I see it. Not arguing or anything. :3

1. The Empire is being used by the Dominion to weaken itself, Ulfric is just one of many pawns they are using to have the Empire destroy itself. Also, there is a big difference between being used unknowingly and being a patsy.

2. Everyone has a pain threshold, to say the man that gave in at the threat of pain is the same as the man that cracked from the pain is a dishonor to the latter's bravery

3. Save the Imperial City for another day in exchange for parts of another nation that gets no choice in the matter...Greater good would have been staying at Hammerfell and Skyrim to strengthen their army, not jump headlong to save a city already lost only to sign away an allied nation. Stab your friends to save your family versus give information and get tormented by the fact before escaping, I know who I wouldn't trust.

[OblivionDuruza]

The Empire didn't betray Hammerfell Chaos. Mede traded an end to the bloodshed across the Empire and the return of most of Cyrodiil to the Empire, for a portion of Hammerfell that had largely fallen to the Thalmor already, and which it would not have seemed possible to reclaim through military force (particularly when you consider that the Redguards only had as much 'success' as they did due to the disobedience of a contingent of Legion soldiers, who remained in the province in defiance of their orders - surprising the Thalmor force there, and the natural defence of the Desert - And even then, that success was the reclaiming of land "devastated" by the conflict, and many, many lives lost).

Still, i agree with you that both Ulfric and the Empire are pawn in a game the Thalmor will continue to play until they have reclaimed what they feel should still be theirs.

[SithisIsMyCopilot]

I think it's more an idea that the Thalmor (think they) can manipulate Ulfric fairly easily rather than give him orders or get his willing cooperation. They (think) they know what makes him tick and they (believe) they can push his buttons to get him to do as they will.

How effective this is I leave to personal interpretation, hence the parenthetical conditionals.

[swordsister]

I think it's more an idea that the Thalmor (think they) can manipulate Ulfric fairly easily rather than give him orders or get his willing cooperation. They (think) they know what makes him tick and they (believe) they can push his buttons to get him to do as they will.

How effective this is I leave to personal interpretation, hence the parenthetical conditionals.

the Thalmor knew so little.

[Chaos the N'wah]

The Empire didn't betray Hammerfell Chaos. Mede traded an end to the bloodshed across the Empire and the return of most of Cyrodiil to the Empire, for a portion of Hammerfell that had largely fallen to the Thalmor already, and which it would not have seemed possible to reclaim through military force (particularly when you consider that the Redguards only had as much 'success' as they did due to the disobedience of a contingent of Legion soldiers, who remained in the province in defiance of their orders - surprising the Thalmor force there, and the natural defence of the Desert - And even then, that success was the reclaiming of land "devastated" by the conflict, and many, many lives lost).

Regardless of your views it was a betrayal, Hammerfell certainly thinks so, and their 'success' was just as much the Redguards' uniting as the awol legion (particularly it was beneficial for the Battle of the Red Ring since it made the Dominion believe General Decianus was still in Hammerfell). The fact remains that the Concordant was signed largely intact and left Hammerfell divided only after Cyrodiil was reclaimed, rather then fortifying their borders in lands to their advantage (Skyrim mountains and Hammerfell deserts).

But we're going a little too far off-topic

Regardless, I still think it's incorrect make an assumption on a man's character under duress (i.e. unaffected and a clear indicator of their moral fiber), at least not in a black-white 1-1 ratio

[Minor Edits]

I avidly despise Ulfric. Just getting that out of the way. In my opinion, as damning as the dossier is, it actually lets Ulfric off the hook, as it seems to indicate he's not actively following their direction during the events of the game.

"Asset" has a very broad meaning here. It doesn't demand the asset be friendly or cooperative, merely that he/she can be advantageously coerced and/or influenced. The dossier is stolen from the Thalmor embassy; while it's possibly part of a misinformation campaign the Thalmor had lined up just in case the Stormcloaks became too powerful, the other dossiers stolen along with it apparently had truthful information in them, so it's presumably accurate. Besides the Thalmor's general penchant for deceit, there's no evidence to the contrary. The dossier highlights several facts about Ulfric which, combined with other information, we can use to draw relevant inferences. I list them now only because I can't be sure everyone has fully understood the information; I've made that mistake too many times.

First, he was captured in the Great War. He was also arrested and imprisoned after the Markarth Incident, and, of course, when we first meet him in Skyrim, he's been captured, bound, and gagged. Stormcloak supporters frequently like to argue that Ulfric is a strong warrior, and thus, in the Nordic culture, most deserving of leadership. But for a decent warrior, he seems to get captured a lot (and I don't know about the rest of you, but when I fought him, he went down like a sack of potatoes). If not for the most unlikely of circumstances, his campaign would've ended, so that should tell us something about his abilities as a war leader. Further, he made a habit of using the thu'um for violent conquest; besides being a Nordic no-no, this gives him a fairly significant advantage in any given fight. And yet, he doesn't seem to have the track record of a great warrior. His one military success was the Markarth campaign, where he fought an enemy that was unfamiliar with siege warfare (and, of course, he reportedly used the opportunity provided by this victory to commit atrocious war crimes).

Second, Ulfric was interrogated (i.e., tortured), tricked into believing he had divulged crucial information, and then was allowed to escape. I don't mean to devalue torture, and the "everybody breaks eventually" theory has a lot of support, but certainly Nords would consider it dishonorable to break under torture. It's no wonder he apparently kept it a secret. That they deceived into believing he had provided them with crucial information and that he was (apparently) duped into believing his escape was not their idea gives us some insight into Ulfric's intelligence.

Third, the Thalmor used him to their advantage in the Markarth Incident. Precisely how much guidance they gave him, if any, is is unknown but largely irrelevant, though there does seem to be some implication that he funneled information about it to them. The incident allowed them to increase pressure on the Empire and Skyrim, and the previously lax enforcement of the Talos ban became harsh.

Fourth, the Thalmor reestablished contact after the war, and Ulfric became "generally uncooperative" to direct contact after Markarth. We can infer that Ulfric's shame allowed the Thalmor to blackmail him, but after he saw how they used his actions in the Reach to bring Skyrim further under their heel, he apparently became more belligerent towards them (if you want to be really cynical about it, he may have become less cooperative only because his newfound status as the leading advocate in Skyrim for the abolition of the Talos ban demanded it). However, "generally uncooperative" is not the same as "totally uncooperative"; as the dossier says, "direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances)". We can only speculate on how and to what degree the Thalmor used him before and after the incident, but it's reasonable to assume that he was at least a source of information - the deadliest weapon there is.

Fifth, during Skyrim's opening scene with Alduin at Helgen (but "off-screen"), the Thalmor apparently acted to ensure Ulfric's safety. He was a precious commodity to them. This lends greater support to the assertions of Imperial supporters that Ulfric - indeed, the whole Stormcloak movement - acts to the Thalmor's direct advantage.

2-4 tell us that Ulfric can be easily manipulated by the Thalmor, and that, if and when he becomes Skyrim's leader, he would remain compromised, malleable, and predictable. In short, a terrible leader in war time or otherwise.

The comparison between the Empire ceding southern Hammerfell and Ulfric ceding information under duress lacks merit, so I'll just skip that side discussion.

The thalmor dossier called Ulfric an asset because of the fact he's causing an uprsing in Skyrim. But they also advise extreme caution when dealing with Ulfric meaning that in no way would Ulfric conditionally ever work with the Thalmor.

Regarding the Markarth incident, that was entirely Ulfric's free will. The thalmor had no actual control over him at any point after his imprisonment, assuming that the thalmor had any direct involvment with the incitement of the Markarth incident is foolish

I think it's overstatement to say that the dossier means that "in no way would Ulfric conditionally ever work with Thalmor"; it's not clear just how far the Thalmor made Ulfric bend. I think Bethesda kept stuff like that vague so some players could still believe the Stormcloaks were the right side (if Bethesda really was trying to keep the rebellion a "there is no right answer" situation, then they failed anyways, but that's slightly unrelated). Also, there's no telling how much influence the Thalmor had in engineering the Markarth Incident, but there's no confirmation that it was "entirely Ulfric's free will", and the timeline of events suggests they had some hand in it. Assuming the Thalmor had direct involvement with inciting the Markarth Incident is no more foolish that assuming they had no direct involvement. It's best just to not make assumptions on the matter at all.

Is there a source for that? All in game and lore proof point to Ulfric despising the Thalmor vehemently, and if you look at the circumstances and agreements that involved the Forsworn and the Jarl of Markath you'll notice that Ulfric wasn't some Thalmor sleeper agent

Define "sleeper agent". I don't believe anyone's arguing that this is some Manchurian Candidate scenario, but the evidence suggests Ulfric would be susceptible to coercion/manipulation in the future, and that he's predictable to them.

It's a top-secret document meant for the eyes of high-ranking Thalmor, not a piece of propaganda. It can be accepted as the truth to the best of the knowledge of Elenwen and co.

This is espionage; you have to leave open room for doubt. The harder you make someone work for information, the more they will believe it. Despite the circumstances under which the dossier was kept and then acquired, it has to be taken with salt. We have to deal in probabilities, not "true" or "false".

i always thought that when they said ''Asset'' they meant he was useful

i dont think Ulfric is secretly working for the Aldmerri Dominion, i think that they basicly meant that because he is causing this civil war and thus weakening the power of the empire and the power of his own Forces, he is useful to the Dominion, because they can come in and sweep up the remains after they are done.

The most likely scenario given all the facts.

Can the dossier be accepted as truth? Or is it just Thalmor lies?

It's a top-secret document meant for the eyes of high-ranking Thalmor, not a piece of propaganda. It can be accepted as the truth to the best of the knowledge of Elenwen and co.

This.

Ulfric is doing exactly what they want, almost certainly (at 99.99999999999...% certain) without knowing he is - if he did realise it, he would drop the war immediately. Galmar wouldn't perhaps, but he would bow to Ulfric's judgement.

He, while dispiseable in some ways, isn't a fool.

You're assuming that Ulfric doesn't know he's acting in the Thalmor's interests. You're also assuming that helping them isn't his intent (this is a safer assumption, certainly, but still an assumption). The evidence suggests he knows the Thalmor are happy to see Skyrim divided, but that he doesn't have faith the Empire will act against them in a timely fashion, so he's gritting his teeth and working to their advantage in the hope that he will one day be able to attack them directly (I believe this to be a fool's dream, of course; one need only look at a map and the historical failures of long-distance naval armadas in TES history to understand that an independent Skyrim is no real threat to Summerset).

Your final assertion is that Ulfric is not a fool - source? I mean, he inherited his position as jarl from his father; it's not like he had to pass an IQ test. He dropped out of "High Hrothgar High". He was duped by the Thalmor multiple times. And, of course, whatever reasoning he may be employing, he is working to the benefit of mankind's greatest terrestrial enemy. He doesn't seem too bright from where I'm sitting.

It's my belief that, smart or stupid, Ulfric is greedy. Or, at least, entitled. He wanted to be High King, irregardless of whether it was in the best interests of his countrymen or the Thalmor. It was in his best interest. He saw his chance, and he took it. All the evidence certainly indicates that, if nothing else, he is an opportunist.

Ulfric is helping the Thalmor by fighting the legion even though he is unaware of it. If he did know that by fighting the legion was helping the Thalmor, he would call a truce or try to make peace with the legion as he depises the Thalmor.

It would have been interesting to give Ulfric the Thalmor Dossier on him as it could have been a neutral way of stopping the war instead of having to pick one side or let it go on forever. I suspect the Thalmor will have Ulfric/Tullius killed to cause a bit of a stir whilst they plan to launch their attack on Skyrim. As attacking whilst Skyrim is ready for war is a risky move due to how dangerous the nords can be if you try to invade them. Although i suspect Skyrim would most likely be heavily damaged. Suspect the nords would win due to them being famous for being excellent warriors. That and almost every nord can handle a weapon.

See above; I see no evidence to support the assertion that Ulfric is unaware that the Stormcloak movement is working towards the Thalmor's benefit. You don't need to be very cunning or know any secrets to work that out. And in order to lead or join a rebellion in the first place, a person has to have a "things must get worse before they can get better" mentality. To reiterate, it's a fool's errand for an independent Skyrim to try and wage war against Summerset, but I'm not convinced Ulfric isn't a fool. Why is it so implausible that Ulfric believes he must work to the Thalmor's advantage in the present in order to defy them in the future?

It would've been interesting to confront Ulfric with the dossier, definitely, but I imagine it would've been hard for Bethesda to do it to their satisfaction. Bethesda would have wanted to continue to keep the facts vague to keep the right faction choice murky, and an extended discussion with Ulfric about the dossier would've posed a minefield for them.

[Br3admax]

ME logic: Also, you assume he can shout. It's also possible, but less probable, that Ulfric has a strong case of Dragon Heart Burn.

[Minor Edits]

ME logic: Also, you assume he can shout. It's also possible, but less probable, that Ulfric has a strong case of Dragon Heart Burn.

Hey, don't joke about DHB; it's the curse of flying lizards everywhere.

Bread logic: all assertions are either absolute or unpersuasive- no middle ground!

I'm not saying he likes the Thalmor, I'm just saying, let's not build houses of sand. I obviously don't think much of Ulfric; calling him a liar wouldn't be the worst name I could give him.