Power of magic in Skyrim vs Oblivion

[Witchery]

I'm honestly of the belief that the magic in Skyrim is more roleplay oriented. Sure, the "spell-creation" and all the effects in Oblivion were fun for a while, but in TES lore . . . is that actually how magic would work? Skyrim, imo, gave us a much better picture of what mages are actually like.

Not sure I think in lore there are more and more effects that are not present in game. If you read the Greg Keyes novels there are a few things mentioned in that, eg making your own portal to different realms of oblivion or some strange torture magic. The Imperial battle mages are also seen to lift (magically) warriors up into the air to partake in an aerial assault. From most of what I have read or heard even in game, magic is supposed to have unlimited potential and power restrained only by the wielders ability.

Greg Keyes' stories is actual lore?

I'm not saying this is all magic has to offer (obviously, most of these spells open the door for much more complex spells. Ie telekinesis could possibly be used to lift people, and going to the realms of Oblivion has been done by extremely powerful magic users. Torture could be used with any school if the caster is creative.) I don't think magic has unlimited power when used by mortals. . . talented, studied mages are of course forces to be reckoned with, but the three tiers of magic, combat, and stealth can be equally dangerous at their peak. "Unlimited potential and power" is a big statement, and if it were true, every mage that can live a few hundred years (elves) would be unstoppable. Now, I do agree the natural ability and innate talent are helpful when determining who is going to succeed, but the same goes for any class.

Are you sure? Mages are supposed to give their whole lifes for study, so that they can understand a bit of the depth of spells and why they exist. Magic In Skyrim is basic. Simplistic and basic. You use this perk here, get a better spell there, press a button and that's done, while in Oblivion you not only had to make your character with the right skills and level up correctly, you could even make your own spells. In Skyrim you don't really need to think. "Oh, I want my mage to use more conjuration than destruction, let me make my own class for that." This is something that only Oblivion players will understand.

The magic system was the first thing that got me a little dissapointed with Skyrim. I am always a pure mage, and I found the magic schools to be, let's say, "incomplete". To me, it completly kills that aura of "students of magic and powerful wizards". I actually think that the magic in Oblivion is more close to the lore than in Skyrim. Not the mention that the quest of the college of Winterhold were so short, and only 9 or 10. In Oblivion we had a much better story and much more quests with the Mages Guild.

I'm sure. And I disagree. There are many different kinds of mages. The scholars in the colleges and guild do dedicate their lives to study and toil over, if you will, dusty old tomes. But what about the necromancers that experiment to learn? Or the healers that actually help others to learn their craft? Witches commune with spirits in sisterhood and covens, and battlemages learn quite like warriors. . . with target practice. Mage is an encompassing term, much like Warrior or Stealthy-character. Not all warriors wield swords and shields and not all stealthy characters are thieves or assassins. That statement about mages giving up their lives to study, isn't correct imo. Yes, the typical magic user or "mage" will study books and tomes for years. But not every magic-user is a scholar.

I've played Oblivion. Skyrim's perk system (which is gameplay oriented: not just for mages. Literally every skill has a perk system. Your problem would lie with that, not with the magic system) Spell-creation doesn't seem plausible to me, especially Oblivion's way of handling it. The Oblivion magic system was overly complicated if you ask me. It was much more convenient to play as a warrior or thief than a mage in Oblivion, and I normally play primarily as a mage.

I do not find the magic schools incomplete. I personally like the five-school system. Complicated =/= better. The aura of "powerful wizard/scholar of magic" can be created primarily by roleplaying in my experience (as each character should have a different aura; every mage is not a powerful wizard or a scholar, as I explained a bit above.) The spells provide with a lot of room to display power, if that's what you're looking for. Shooting fireballs out of your hands and conjuring elemental creatures is pretty powerful. What did you expect? Skyrim does a better job than Oblivion when it comes to the "powerful magic user" aura, imho.

I can't disagree with you on the guild quests. To be honest, the Companions lacked a lot too. They could have been better, but Skyrim's sheer awesomeness and room for development of character (yes, even mages) makes up for lackluster guilds.

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

Spell creation and more effects was roleplay oriented, now we just have a neutered, linear list of blah. No uniqueness, no customization or creativity. Gone are the days of becoming as niche or personalized as you wanted to be. Magic builds in Skyrim get old after only a handful, and that's with heavy limitation already on the smaller effects list. It's all graphics and no substance, no... magic.

Two Worlds games have more magic customization and depth... And that right there is [&@%!] sad.

[Witchery]

Spell creation and more effects was roleplay oriented, now we just have a neutered, linear list of blah. No uniqueness, no customization of creativity.

How? I don't agree. Skyrim is full of customization. You customize five minutes into the game.

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

Spell creation and more effects was roleplay oriented, now we just have a neutered, linear list of blah. No uniqueness, no customization of creativity.

How? I don't agree. Skyrim is full of customization. You customize five minutes into the game.

...I'm talking magic. You get a spell, no customization to it, no spell creation, no making unique customized spells. You're stuck with a smaller handful of static spells and that's it. Being able to tweak almost every facet of every effect and mix and match effects is a million, maybe a billion times more customizable than Skyrim's joke system. And customization=the most RP potential.

More options and actual personalization>Less options and static spells/effects list

[Br3admax]

PC is a living god, they don't count. Lore wise we can unmake the world with magic. Don't let how everyone else learns to do magic, judge our strength in it. That is a game mechanic.

And yes, Bethesda endorses the novels. They are canon.

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

Not to mention (or more like re mention), J'zargo and his spell creating. If friggin' J'zargo can create spells (without an altar I might add), then why the hell can't I?

Although you dont need any lore precedent to include more options. Even if there were no lore precedent for spell creation, it would be a matter of fun and gameplay trumping lore. There is absolutely no reason not to have spell creation and more effects. I hate how Beth goes backwards on a lot of things.

[Witchery]

Not to mention (or more like re mention), J'zargo and his spell creating. If friggin' J'zargo can create spells (without an altar I might add), then why the hell can't I?

Although you dont need any lore precedent to include more options. Even if there were no lore precedent for spell creation, it would be a matter of fun and gameplay trumping lore. There is absolutely no reason not to have spell creation and more effects. I hate how Beth goes backwards on a lot of things.

J'zargo created scrolls for a preexisting spell. It is different.

Personally, I haven't seen much spell creating in the lore. I don't think that "total magical customization" (how would that even work? Instead of a flames spell to start with you get a purple-fire-jet-that-saps-stamina?) would make the game more fun for me. Again, just my opinion, but I don't like the idea of spell creation. For the most part, magic is pretty consistent when it comes to spells. The lack of spell creation isn't a gripe for me.

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

Not to mention (or more like re mention), J'zargo and his spell creating. If friggin' J'zargo can create spells (without an altar I might add), then why the hell can't I?

Although you dont need any lore precedent to include more options. Even if there were no lore precedent for spell creation, it would be a matter of fun and gameplay trumping lore. There is absolutely no reason not to have spell creation and more effects. I hate how Beth goes backwards on a lot of things.

J'zargo created scrolls for a preexisting spell. It is different.

Personally, I haven't seen much spell creating in the lore. I don't think that "total magical customization" (how would that even work? Instead of a flames spell to start with you get a purple-fire-jet-that-saps-stamina?) would make the game more fun for me. Again, just my opinion, but I don't like the idea of spell creation. For the most part, magic is pretty consistent when it comes to spells. The lack of spell creation isn't a gripe for me.

No, it is the same thing. He created spells. Same thing with Brelyna's created spells.

And how would spell creation work you ask? Like it did in every other ES game not named Skyrim. Total customization>Magic and magic builds getting old after only a small number of builds. More roleplay options>Way less option. There are so many builds and gameplay styles that are not even viable in Skyrim compared to Oblivion - which is the result of no spell creation and less effects.

[Avron the S'wit]

Sometimes you got to know where to agree to disagree, you know.

[Betina]

I'm sure. And I disagree. There are many different kinds of mages. The scholars in the colleges and guild do dedicate their lives to study and toil over, if you will, dusty old tomes. But what about the necromancers that experiment to learn? Or the healers that actually help others to learn their craft? Witches commune with spirits in sisterhood and covens, and battlemages learn quite like warriors. . . with target practice. Mage is an encompassing term, much like Warrior or Stealthy-character. Not all warriors wield swords and shields and not all stealthy characters are thieves or assassins. That statement about mages giving up their lives to study, isn't correct imo. Yes, the typical magic user or "mage" will study books and tomes for years. But not every magic-user is a scholar.

I've played Oblivion. Skyrim's perk system (which is gameplay oriented: not just for mages. Literally every skill has a perk system. Your problem would lie with that, not with the magic system) Spell-creation doesn't seem plausible to me, especially Oblivion's way of handling it. The Oblivion magic system was overly complicated if you ask me. It was much more convenient to play as a warrior or thief than a mage in Oblivion, and I normally play primarily as a mage.

I do not find the magic schools incomplete. I personally like the five-school system. Complicated =/= better. The aura of "powerful wizard/scholar of magic" can be created primarily by roleplaying in my experience (as each character should have a different aura; every mage is not a powerful wizard or a scholar, as I explained a bit above.) The spells provide with a lot of room to display power, if that's what you're looking for. Shooting fireballs out of your hands and conjuring elemental creatures is pretty powerful. What did you expect? Skyrim does a better job than Oblivion when it comes to the "powerful magic user" aura, imho.

I can't disagree with you on the guild quests. To be honest, the Companions lacked a lot too. They could have been better, but Skyrim's sheer awesomeness and room for development of character (yes, even mages) makes up for lackluster guilds.

I actually enjoy dusty old tomes.


But I understand. You do have a valid point about scholars/necromancers/witches/healers. And yes, I have a problem with the perk system as a whole, not just with the magic part of it. For me, magic in Skyrim is very, very incomplete. They simplified almost everything in that game.

Well, yeah, you look much more powerful while casting a spell in Skyrim. But are you really powerful? imo, no, you aren't. You only look like it.

The Companions quest line could have been so epic... It ends way to fast.

[Witchery]

I actually enjoy dusty old tomes.


But I understand. You do have a valid point about scholars/necromancers/witches/healers. And yes, I have a problem with the perk system as a whole, not just with the magic part of it. For me, magic in Skyrim is very, very incomplete. They simplified almost everything in that game.

Well, yeah, you look much more powerful while casting a spell in Skyrim. But are you really powerful? imo, no, you aren't. You only look like it.

The Companions quest line could have been so epic... It ends way to fast.

Oh, I do too~ I just was pointing out that not all mages are of the wizard variety.

The perk system . . . could have been better, but I'm alright with it. The leveling system to me is more satisfying than Oblivion's.

Depends on how you use the spells & The Companions had this (short) buildup and then an anti-climatic ending . . . each Guild had its moments, but as a whole, random quests have been more interesting. haha.

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

From a pure power perspective, you're more powerful in the older games. In Sky the magic doesnt even level right and ends up being a spam fest at higher levels on higher difficulties. Previous games never had this problem. Plus with SC you can create a spell 1000% more powerful than anything in Skyrim's static system.

[Da_BossMaN69]

here's a suggestion for anyone finding fights too hard with a mage.

Paralysis + Wall of flames = easy kill.

laughable to use on larger enemies like giants.

I don't understand the majority of the users online when it comes to fighting.

Many of you have made claims about how hard bears, sabre cats and ice wraiths are, and etc. When I have had no problem at any point in the game with them. Also, you're a mage, that means maintain a 10 foot minimum from your enemies, not a hard concept.

Plus there are more than enough tactics when it comes to fighting.

I heard (or at least read) some one claiming how you simply "spam" spells at higher levels, well I have a warrior too and I certainly have to use more than 2 hit to kill higher level enemies in the game, that's their nature.

Too many people here are enamored with this idea that as a mage, you're some living demi-God. You're not, just because you shoot fire out of your hand doesn't mean it has to be stronger than a sword or battle axe.

Adapt you tactics to new enemies you have more than enough spells to do so in the game.

Place a rune, put on a flesh spell, summon the appropriate atronach/ corpse, and position yourself away from the fight.

Also, it seems to me no one here understands the importance of staves. It's free spells (so long as you have enough soul gems) this allows you one free hand to use the entire pool of magic for whatever spells you need. Use the staff for destruction and the freed hand for support or stronger spells.

I have an easier time fighting enemies as a mage then I do my warrior.

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

Yeah, magic is a weak joke in Skyrim. Magic not keeping up with other damage types, becoming a stagger spam fest. Not being able to specialize or become unique with it, is terrible. The "be what and who you want to be" was taken out of magic and magic based builds in Skyrim. You can no longer play how you want to with magic in Skyrim, which in turn makes a third of the game completely inferior to its predecessors.

[Witchery]

Yeah, magic is a weak joke in Skyrim. Magic not keeping up with other damage types, becoming a stagger spam fest. Not being able to specialize or become unique with it, is terrible. The "be what and who you want to be" was taken out of magic and magic based builds in Skyrim. You can no longer play how you want to with magic in Skyrim, which in turn makes a third of the game completely inferior to its predecessors.

I'm going to quote Avron. . . let's agree to disagree. Because we really disagree.

[Dohva.]

I've never played the other ES games, but I like the way magic is set up in Skyrim. Sure, sometimes it can be a spam fest, but being creative with spells and the way you kill brings the fun into it. The only times my mage spams spells is when she's facing adversaries that can kill her with one hit. Even then its tough, because she keeps a good distance away and sometimes she misses her mark. Summoning works well but I still find limits to using magic. I do think you can specialize in certain areas...which is why they have the perk trees. And lets not forget roleplay value. Just because the game allows you to spam spells sometimes, the character, in essence, is still honing the craft. I just think to say that magic is overpowered in this game isn't quite the case. Because even with all her powers, my mage still gets taken out every now and then...mostly by other mages.

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

I'm going to quote Avron. . . let's agree to disagree. Because we really disagree.

Then why reply? I wasn't quoting you. Also not really much of an opinion since my points have been proven by Skyrim.

[Br3admax]

Why should I have to learn Alteration and Illusion to use Destruction. You don't have to learn Heavy Armor and Block to use One-Hand. I want to be a strong mage at any level. I sacrifice health and stamina for magicka. Where's the benefit? Also npc mages do way more damage. I would give up SC for that.

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

I should be able to play any type of magic character I want, from the most archetypal mage to the most niche, and for them all to be unique and viable (like they could be and were, in every previous ES game). In Sky without mods, you can't be as niche viable as you could in the previous games. You can't be niche at all really, as the above posters have unknowingly pointed out. In previous games (and with SC) I could be a pyromancer, a mystic, a medium or any other school specific, spell specific, or combination thereof magic user and be totally viable. Not having to rely on things outside my build or role play. Allowing me to truly be whoever I wanted. That is the power of magic, or was at least.