Power of magic in Skyrim vs Oblivion

[Daemos Avetorii]

This is going to a kind of debate me thinks.
I often tend to rant to myself about how they imo nerfed the magic in comparison to oblivion.
Mysticism is gone (Dispel) Touch spells are gone, chameleon is gone.
Custom spell making is gone.
without dispel a player's (non nord) warrior character cannot dispel the effect of a foe's frost magic. Thus struggling to counter attack.

While skyrim's destruction spells are of course very powerful at expert/master level it is not quite the same.
In oblivion you could have two spell effects, like weakness to magicka 100% for 1 second and drain health on touch 100 points.
I'm attempting to not come over as complaining. I wish to learn if others see what I see and wether or not I am overlooking something.

[Yaije]

I don't particularly find spells that hit for only 60~90 comparable to other sources that can inflict 60-200. The only powerful thing related to magic in skyrim is enchanting (speaking as someone who just toyed around with daggers that fire/shock blast things for 200 dmg on hit)

edit: course magic has been getting 'weaker' in each game I've played.

[Avron the S'wit]

You guys really dislike the TES General subforum, don't you? That's a place where we can discuss things that include more than one game, so as not to pigeonhole topics into one subforum over the other.

I'm going to move it there. Hope you don't mind!

That said...I really do miss the magic system of Oblivion; it seemed very smooth and straightforward. But Skyrim is the first game where I started to have characters that are more into magic. I am not yet well versed to have an opinion. Did like that you could have a sword and a spell equipped in one hand, though...

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

Magic in Skyrim is a complete joke. Tons of missing effects and the worst part; no spell creation. Magic went from a diverse tool of endless role play and strategical options, to a linear "run of the mill RPG" magic system. Todd sure took the magic out of magic in Sky.

[CreeperX]

Ehh... it seems I'm in the minority. While Oblivion indeed had more spells and all, I always found playing as a pure mage tedious and underpowered. In Skyrim instead I have had an absolute blast.
Maybe the reason was that, thanks to Oblivion's (IMO) awful leveling system, I didn't level "right" and only got to put few points in Willpower and Intelligence. I was always out of magicka and the mana cost for higher level spells was ridiculous. When enemies just got stronger at the same rate and my magic skills were falling behind, I was in serious trouble.
In Skyrim there's no "willpower" or "intelligence", nor is there that tedious situation whether you got to level 5 or 1 points in your attributes. You always get 10 points and if you wish to be a mage you put them in magicka. That's it.
I'm also not bothered at all by the fact that mysticism is gone. I pretty much never used those spells... or only used one. Sometimes I actually felt there were too many different magic schools, that they were too scattered and not balanced well enough. I disliked haggling with so many different skills just because I wanted to use one spell. I like it that in Skyrim some of those spells have been put into different categories making each school of magic feel really usefull. Soul trap in conjuration makes sense to me. So does Telekinesis in Alteration. I also love some of the new additions. Like the fact that I now can be a necromancer.
I agree though that magic indeed isn't as variable anymore and the lack of creative spell creation was kind of a bummer. Since they introduced duel wielding, a chance to combine spells sounded pretty obvious but no. It IS more linear. However, that has also made it non-tedious for me and I never had a feeling that I would be underpowered in Skyrim. Quite the opposite. There's several things in magic which are almost game breakingly powerful. Some of the most formidable foes are mages too, while in Oblivion I never had problems with them (unless I was a mage myself -_-). I have also never felt a need to create my own spells (except lower the casting time for master spells). I think the spells introduced in the game are good enough, unlike in Oblivion.

I guess my preference has a lot to do with that I didn't really know how to play as a mage in Oblivion or how to deal with the idiotic leveling system. In Skyrim magic system indeed is more simple and while I usually don't like when things get dumbed down, it actually ended up being a lot more fun to me and I find it pretty well balanced with the another playtypes: warrior and thief.
So yes, I prefer Skyrim. I don't care if that makes me a "noob" or something. I just personally enjoyed this system more and actually managed to create effective mages this time.
Each to their own.

[GoatLiver]

I do like how magic came off in Skyrim particularly in regard to visual effects for higher level spells like Firestorm. There were some cool new editions to magic but on the whole apart from visuals Oblivions magic was better IMO.

I always found some effects to be worthless or unnecessary like drain acrobatics or something, but some are very much missed. A few of the best ones I can't believe are gone are things like disintegrate armour or weapon, silence - probably one of the best spells, reflect spell or damage, absorb health (unless your a vampire) even mark and recall from Morrowind would be epic.

One of the biggest disappointments for me was that enemies that used these spells where absolutely ruthless to fight. Great example was the Will-o-the-Wisp that used an absorb health spell. Another are vampires that get a silence spell and if you went at them as a mage it could cause you serious problems not being able to cast for a certain amount of time. I would love to enchant a sword with silence in Skyrim.

[Witchery]

Ehh... it seems I'm in the minority. While Oblivion indeed had more spells and all, I always found playing as a pure mage tedious and underpowered. In Skyrim instead I have had an absolute blast.
Maybe the reason was that, thanks to Oblivion's (IMO) awful leveling system, I didn't level "right" and only got to put few points in Willpower and Intelligence. I was always out of magicka and the mana cost for higher level spells was ridiculous. When enemies just got stronger at the same rate and my magic skills were falling behind, I was in serious trouble.
In Skyrim there's no "willpower" or "intelligence", nor is there that tedious situation whether you got to level 5 or 1 points in your attributes. You always get 10 points and if you wish to be a mage you put them in magicka. That's it.
I'm also not bothered at all by the fact that mysticism is gone. I pretty much never used those spells... or only used one. Sometimes I actually felt there were too many different magic schools, that they were too scattered and not balanced well enough. I disliked haggling with so many different skills just because I wanted to use one spell. I like it that in Skyrim some of those spells have been put into different categories making each school of magic feel really usefull. Soul trap in conjuration makes sense to me. So does Telekinesis in Alteration. I also love some of the new additions. Like the fact that I now can be a necromancer.
I agree though that magic indeed isn't as variable anymore and the lack of creative spell creation is kind of a bummer. Since they introduced duel wielding, a chance to combine spells sounded pretty obvious but no. It IS more linear. However, that has also made it non-tedious for me and I never had a feeling that I would be underpowered in Skyrim. Quite the opposite. There's several things in magic which are almost game breakingly powerful. Some of the most formidable foes are mages too, while in Oblivion I never had problems with them (unless I was a mage myself -_-).

I guess my preference has a lot to do with that I didn't really know how to play as a mage in Oblivion or how to deal with the idiotic leveling system. In Skyrim magic system indeed is more simple and while I usually don't like when things get dumbed down, it actually ended up being a lot more fun to me and I find it pretty well balanced with the another playtypes: warrior and thief.
So yes, I prefer Skyrim. I don't care if that makes me a "noob" or something. I just personally enjoyed this system more and actually managed to create effective mages this time.
Each to their own.

I agree with this.

Skyrim seems so much more . . . realistic to what a mage could actually do, imo.

[Da_BossMaN69]

Bull.....

I played the bejebus out of Oblivion and it's expansions. Not ONCE did I ever regard magic as something other than a support or auxiliary role. I always used fireball or touch, etc to soften enemies (albeit rarely) and never even look at my magicka once I had depleted a 1/3 or less of it, which was only like a spell or two.

It was of no use or harm to me to even acknowledge in that game, which is why I never made a mage character. And I'll admit I regret it, since there were more spells and effects yes, but again there was no allure. Hell a mage to me in Oblivion was a free-kill, they did [&@%!] pour damage to me and always met my blade before they could cast a second spell.

Skyrim? Forget it, these jack-offs have been hitting the 'roids in the last 5 years I fought them, now they do damage on par with dragons for god's sake. It took me til level 40 to even be able to shrug off the higher spells, like thunderbolt or ice storm from mages/dragon priests, and even still it took like 4-5 hits and I'd be out. They were an actual challenge, I couldn't just charge them, I had to use tactics. Flank them, or rush em while they're recharging or readying a second spell, etc.

It impressed me to the point I actually made a mage, and boy is there a difference. I can't get with in 10 feet of my enemy or else I'll end up being beheaded or skewed by some bandit or animal. But at only level 38 and with upper 80's in alteration/conjuration and destruction they never get the chance.

It's a whole new combat system. Avoid enemies and create distractions, plan out your attacks. See a centurion across the map, no problem, place a rune, cast an ebony flesh, summon an atronach or raise a falmer for bait, sic' em on the big boy, and simply charge up your strongest spell and keep blasting em. Easier said then done.

Mages? Even easier, summon their most frequent element type, if some warlock keeps casting firebolt, summon a flame atronach, and use them as a meat shield, that will do most of the work anyway since they can't melee for [&@%!].

So no, magic is better and more useful in skyrim.

[Br3admax]

Me as a mage:Spam the hell out of the enemy, while trying to wear a lot of cost reduction.

NPC as a mage:Different spells(technically), different perks, three times as much health as us. Enemies have different perks than we do in Skyrim, some which super-charge them.

Oblivion had spell customization, so if I did the same as in Skyrim, I could become a walking tank. Oblivion still had more useful spells.

Es overall, magic is flawed. Damage does not scale with Destruction skill. It's all about cost reduction, which is stupid, IMO. One-Handed, scales. Two-Handed, scales. Archery, scales. Destruction is just a side option.

[CBR JGWRR]

Yeah it definitely doesn't scale right, destruction magic can hit 200 DPS (if you can cast spells fast enough) whereas one handed sword damage can easily hit 500 plus DPS (If you know what you are doing)

But then, destruction is the one I use more for the random oponents - when you've got a weapon that one shots the highest health enemies, then it's just OTT to use it some bandit scum, and by the time getting the weapon out, closing to melee range etc, using incinerate + thunderbolt has already got them all, or lightning storm, as it's much more magicka efficient, if you haven't got 100% cost reduction.

While I haven't played that much through Oblivion, magic hasn't been as good as it was in Skyrim IMO - felt less user friendly, and it took ages to work out how to use it...

[philfredobob]

i found Magic in skyrim to be incredibly weak, i would go through my magicka using anything tougher than apprentice, and was forced to wear loads of enchanted gear to really use magic properly

i found it easier and smoother in Oblivion, easier to mix Melee and Magic, but perhaps more difficult to play as a pure mage

but in the end, i was simply annoyed how much Magicka the powerful spells in Skyrim take, even playing as a mage character, i could never use them with any frequency, and i ended up stabbing the guy

but thats probably my own fault for playing wrong

[Unionhack]

Skyrim's magic is definitely better handled, it's just a shame that spell creation is gone.

Meanwhile, Oblivion's magic made it easier to break the game, by far. 100% reflect damage was easy to achieve, as was 100% chameleon.
If I had to choose which had more raw potential to make you a god-like character, I'd choose Oblivion.
Skyrim, however, has more 'destructive' magic in general and made playing a mage WAY more fun than in Oblivion.

[Chaos the N'wah]

As others have pointed out, it isn't power but implementation of magic that's in question; largely because magic doesn't baseline scale with content and requires perks/spellmaking to remain competitive-ish.

Oblivion allowed you to use magic alongside other means to do damage at the small cost of 5% effectiveness in armor which made the typical mage-cloth wearing inefficient; magic felt like a supplement, not the main course.
Skyrim, on the other hand, gave some credence to use robes because of inclusion of Alteration perks and enchanted mage clothes that are a good runner-up to a master enchanter, allowing us to look the part without feeling like we're doing so just to RP.
While we now have different deliveries for the same element, the players are limited to just them without the intrigue of stressing the limits of the game's mechanics; add to that, the lack of continual scaling like with melee or archery and you have players feeling held back.

Oblivion magic was certainly "Stronger" in that it could break the game, but it lacked in its delivery system; Skyrim, the opposite in both regards.

[CBR JGWRR]

You can still break the game with magic, it's just more difficult/requiring fore planning.

[p-sto]

Never played Oblivion but I will say there is a certain ease of use with Skyrim's magic but comparing what's available it definitely feels like Skyrim mages are weaker even if they are functionally better.

No teleportation or levitation, I know Morrowind things and they were taken out for a reason but I miss them. I also miss the sense of balance with magic, whatever could be given could be taken away. Why have ironflesh but no paperflesh? Does it seem unreasonable for a mage to be able to render an enemy's weapons and armor useless?

[Avron the S'wit]

I will say that Skyrim was the first time I truly found myself afraid of mages: the magic is really powerful. Those higher level spells can wreck you and in more than one instance I have found even my most brutish warrior running away from the flaming spells of doom and death and crying like a sissy girl all the while.

Oblivion magic was annoying, but it was easy to charge through for me. Skyrim? No way.

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

It's just no comparison really. Other than graphics, Skyrim magic has absolutely nothing on the previous game's magic systems. Not only do you have more overall effects in previous titles, but you had endless options to put together and could make some really creative spells with spell making. Overpowering really has nothing to do with it since that was all on you. Made overpowered spells and felt like you broke your game? Then get some self control. I had hundreds of builds in Morrowind and Oblivion, a third of which used magic in some way, and I never once had an overpowered character from SC. Skyrim's small spell list is graphically pretty, but what would you expect from a successor? Simply too much cutting and dumbing down for absolutely no reason. Magic is pretty much a gimmick in Skyrim.

Never understood why or how spell creation could be turned into the scapegoat that it was, by Beth (and some of the "fans"). Mind boggling really.

[Witchery]

It's just no comparison really. Other than graphics, Skyrim magic has absolutely nothing on the previous game's magic systems. Not only do you have more overall effects in previous titles, but you had endless options to put together and could make some really creative spells with spell making. Overpowering really has nothing to do with it since that was all on you. Made overpowered spells and felt like you broke your game? Then get some self control. I had hundreds of builds in Morrowind and Oblivion, a third of which used magic in some way, and I never once had an overpowered character from SC. Skyrim's small spell list is graphically pretty, but what would you expect from a successor? Simply too much cutting and dumbing down for absolutely no reason. Magic is pretty much a gimmick in Skyrim.

Never understood why or how spell creation could be turned into the scapegoat that it was, by Beth (and some of the "fans"). Mind boggling really.

I'm honestly of the belief that the magic in Skyrim is more roleplay oriented. Sure, the "spell-creation" and all the effects in Oblivion were fun for a while, but in TES lore . . . is that actually how magic would work? Skyrim, imo, gave us a much better picture of what mages are actually like.

[Br3admax]

Yeah, looking cool is not important if I can't kill anything. Flames looks cool, won't be able to even use it past level 10. And Wall spells aren't even worth the cost. It's all about spamming, and lore-wise that would never happen either. You shouldn't have to choose. We should get both. Looking cool, with good cost.

[CBR JGWRR]

In flames defence, it is the most magicka efficient spell in the game without any cost reduction, especially if you take a few illusion and destruction perks...

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

I'm honestly of the belief that the magic in Skyrim is more roleplay oriented. Sure, the "spell-creation" and all the effects in Oblivion were fun for a while, but in TES lore . . . is that actually how magic would work? Skyrim, imo, gave us a much better picture of what mages are actually like.

There is no way. With spell creation you could role play anything (by making anything viable). A tool of pure creation that surpassed being "just a crafting mechanic." Along with that, you could make new play styles, strategies, and RPs with spell creation alone. There are so many builds I can't even play as in Skyrim because of the lack of this or that effect, or spell creation. Ruining diversity, uniqueness and builds is definitely not role play oriented.

Magic in previous games was all about RPing. And when you see magic as a tangible science to learn and master, spell creation (and its altar) is the precise representation of that. None of which was "spreadsheety" might I add, before that drivel comes up.

Oh, and yes, that is how magic works, lore wise. J'zargo can create spells, but I can't?

Also, a lot of people seem to not know what all you could actually do with spell creation. From recreating Maormer serpent magic in a non modded game, to creating trap spells (yeah, runes in Sky are nothing new), to creating pure aesthetic auras for RP reasons. From making sacrificial blood magic, to creating spells that are not spells at all, but abilities that consume stamina. Any and everything, the only limit was your imagination.

[GoatLiver]

I'm honestly of the belief that the magic in Skyrim is more roleplay oriented. Sure, the "spell-creation" and all the effects in Oblivion were fun for a while, but in TES lore . . . is that actually how magic would work? Skyrim, imo, gave us a much better picture of what mages are actually like.

Not sure I think in lore there are more and more effects that are not present in game. If you read the Greg Keyes novels there are a few things mentioned in that, eg making your own portal to different realms of oblivion or some strange torture magic. The Imperial battle mages are also seen to lift (magically) warriors up into the air to partake in an aerial assault. From most of what I have read or heard even in game, magic is supposed to have unlimited potential and power restrained only by the wielders ability.

[Betina]

I'm honestly of the belief that the magic in Skyrim is more roleplay oriented. Sure, the "spell-creation" and all the effects in Oblivion were fun for a while, but in TES lore . . . is that actually how magic would work? Skyrim, imo, gave us a much better picture of what mages are actually like.

Are you sure? Mages are supposed to give their whole lifes for study, so that they can understand a bit of the depth of spells and why they exist. Magic In Skyrim is basic. Simplistic and basic. You use this perk here, get a better spell there, press a button and that's done, while in Oblivion you not only had to make your character with the right skills and level up correctly, you could even make your own spells. In Skyrim you don't really need to think. "Oh, I want my mage to use more conjuration than destruction, let me make my own class for that." This is something that only Oblivion players will understand.

The magic system was the first thing that got me a little dissapointed with Skyrim. I am always a pure mage, and I found the magic schools to be, let's say, "incomplete". To me, it completly kills that aura of "students of magic and powerful wizards". I actually think that the magic in Oblivion is more close to the lore than in Skyrim. Not the mention that the quest of the college of Winterhold were so short, and only 9 or 10. In Oblivion we had a much better story and much more quests with the Mages Guild.

[Ysmir]

I was upset when they took out Mysticism. From a gameplay perspective I loved using Soul trap, Detect Life, Dispel, and gaining effects like Reflect. HOWEVER, the main reason I was upset is from a lore perspective. Mysticism is integral to much of the lore surrounding the Mages Guild and the Psijic Order even Necromancy has ties to it. I am of a mind with many of folks opinions. A lot of Oblivion's spells were useless like Absorb Personality etc. Some were useful like Damage Health, Magicka, Reflect, Disintegrate. I loved hand spells for more combat oriented characters since it's close range. I did like creating spells but felt like others said I ran out of magic too often and spell cost was high. There were useful low cost spells like Wizard's Fury but overall expensive. I think Skyrim in this regard is better. Wards are useless but hey it can't be all perfect. Destruction magic is king in Skyrim. What I think people miss is the availability. Hey I can create spells. Now in Skyrim I can't. It's like a child who has free range of the back of the house and then after awhile gets told he has to stay in the yard. [Insert pout by child]

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

Yeah, getting rid of Mysticism stung, but getting rid of a ton of Mysticism effects was even worse. I seriously don't see how Todd could say they were putting the magic back in magic with a straight face.