Logical inconsistencies in Skyrim

[Theificka]

I've noticed that too. When you're invisible, NPC's shouldn't be able to "see" you and therefore shouldn't "look at" you. They should ONLY react to sound. But the game still has NPC's doing "head tracking" of ANY nearby target regardless of its visibility status, which is illogical. And when they DO find you by homing in on the sound, and "touch" you, you then remain "detected" and they know exactly where you are even if you move. ...

There are two ways to look at invisibility: either the spell bends light around you, making you truly transparent; or the spell is actually a form of hypnotism: a person can actually see you, but the information never gets past the eyes. You simply do not register in their conscious mind, so they do not regard you as anything at all. More of an "ignore" spell. And it works only with sight, not sound (hypnotized people came still hear commands, after all).

This is another conundrum of wether I not I thought that Illusion was the right area for the spell at times.

[The SheoDovah]

We can't attack whilst jumping or underwater. Were we cursed before we arrived in Helgen as we should have been able to do plunging attacks and defend ourselves against slaughterfish. Imagine battling a dragon, you climb to the top of the tower and wait for the moment to strike, you jump and slash it's wing, it crashes to the ground(depending on the amount of damage you inflicted. Instead, we can't. Why Bethesda? Why remove it in a game featuring dragons?

[Br3admax]

Maybe because they could not happen. Logically none of that would work. In real life, you would hurt yourself.

[The SheoDovah]

But we can survive getting set on fire, falling from a height that should kill us, swimming in ice cold waters for hours on end etc.. And TES doesn't excatly try to be realistic when it comes to combat and things that can kill you.

[Evil-i]

The Woodcutter's Axe and Pickaxe are used one-handed as weapons, but are used two-handed during the wood-chopping and mining animations. (The same thing goes for the Poacher's Axe and the Notched Pickaxe.)

I suppose you could use them one-handed when fighting, but they'd be much more effective and accurate if wielded as two-handers.

[H8Ball]

@Evil-i: Yes, mining annoys the heck out of me. The Pickaxe is two-handed, so you automatically UNequip your Torch in a DARK mine and end up "prospecting" in near (or total) darkness, so you can't SEE what you're doing! And when you're finished mining, you don't automatically RE-equip the Torch, forcing you to Favorite/Hotkey one so you can do so manually! I thought the primary skill in "prospecting" was being able to SEE what you're prospecting for and SEE where to hit with the pickaxe (and for safety too, so you don't accidentally whack the pickaxe you can't see through your own foot that you can't see either)?

The only alternative is to buy a Candlelight or Magelight spell and cast it so you can SEE what you're doing. Even then, it's illogical if you start mining seconds before the spell expires and CONTINUE mining in the dark.

They should have made the Pickaxe one-handed, so you can hold a Torch in your OTHER hand to SEE what you're doing. Also, mining is not possible unless you HAVE a Torch which can be automatically equipped if not already equipped, or if you don't have a Torch, a Candlelight or Magelight spell which can be automatically cast. Alternatively, just make sure every Ore Vein is at least dimly lit, even if it's only by its own phosphorescent glow. But mining in near (or total) darkness where you can't SEE yourself mining most of the time is just ridiculously illogical.

[Riothamus]

Spoiler:

@Evil-i: Yes, mining annoys the heck out of me. The Pickaxe is two-handed, so you automatically UNequip your Torch in a DARK mine and end up "prospecting" in near (or total) darkness, so you can't SEE what you're doing! And when you're finished mining, you don't automatically RE-equip the Torch, forcing you to Favorite/Hotkey one so you can do so manually! I thought the primary skill in "prospecting" was being able to SEE what you're prospecting for and SEE where to hit with the pickaxe (and for safety too, so you don't accidentally whack the pickaxe you can't see through your own foot that you can't see either)?

The only alternative is to buy a Candlelight or Magelight spell and cast it so you can SEE what you're doing. Even then, it's illogical if you start mining seconds before the spell expires and CONTINUE mining in the dark.

They should have made the Pickaxe one-handed, so you can hold a Torch in your OTHER hand to SEE what you're doing. Also, mining is not possible unless you HAVE a Torch which can be automatically equipped if not already equipped, or if you don't have a Torch, a Candlelight or Magelight spell which can be automatically cast. Alternatively, just make sure every Ore Vein is at least dimly lit, even if it's only by its own phosphorescent glow. But mining in near (or total) darkness where you can't SEE yourself mining most of the time is just ridiculously illogical.

Alternately, they could have just programmed the lanterns to work. Put it on the ground...voila! Light!

[Riothamus]

We can't attack whilst jumping or underwater. Were we cursed before we arrived in Helgen as we should have been able to do plunging attacks and defend ourselves against slaughterfish. Imagine battling a dragon, you climb to the top of the tower and wait for the moment to strike, you jump and slash it's wing, it crashes to the ground(depending on the amount of damage you inflicted. Instead, we can't. Why Bethesda? Why remove it in a game featuring dragons?

But we can survive getting set on fire, falling from a height that should kill us, swimming in ice cold waters for hours on end etc.. And TES doesn't excatly try to be realistic when it comes to combat and things that can kill you.

Because somethings just aren't realistic, even in a fantasy setting. Go submerge yourself completely underwater and swing a stick around, then get back to me.

[CBR JGWRR]

@Evil-i: Yes, mining annoys the heck out of me. The Pickaxe is two-handed, so you automatically UNequip your Torch in a DARK mine and end up "prospecting" in near (or total) darkness, so you can't SEE what you're doing! And when you're finished mining, you don't automatically RE-equip the Torch, forcing you to Favorite/Hotkey one so you can do so manually! I thought the primary skill in "prospecting" was being able to SEE what you're prospecting for and SEE where to hit with the pickaxe (and for safety too, so you don't accidentally whack the pickaxe you can't see through your own foot that you can't see either)?

The only alternative is to buy a Candlelight or Magelight spell and cast it so you can SEE what you're doing. Even then, it's illogical if you start mining seconds before the spell expires and CONTINUE mining in the dark.

They should have made the Pickaxe one-handed, so you can hold a Torch in your OTHER hand to SEE what you're doing. Also, mining is not possible unless you HAVE a Torch which can be automatically equipped if not already equipped, or if you don't have a Torch, a Candlelight or Magelight spell which can be automatically cast. Alternatively, just make sure every Ore Vein is at least dimly lit, even if it's only by its own phosphorescent glow. But mining in near (or total) darkness where you can't SEE yourself mining most of the time is just ridiculously illogical.

You are aware that it is possible to mine with a torch equiped?

Spoiler:

Step 1 - equip pickaxe to prefered weapon hand. Step 2 - hack ore vein using attack button. Step 3 - enjoy cutting down time spent mining to a 3rd/half of what it was.

[H8Ball]

D'oh! I wasn't aware of that. I see the prompt "Mine - Orichalcum Vein" (or whatever type of vein it is) and automatically press the Activate button/key to start mining, er, "automatically". I knew a Pickaxe could be equipped and used as a weapon, but not that it could be used to hit Ore Veins "manually".

In any case, my experimentation mining Orichalcum Veins in Bilegulch Mine using this "manual" mining method has exposed a few logical inconsistencies...

1. For automatic mining, you use the Pickaxe two-handed. Yet when you equip it as a weapon (and mine with it manually), you use it one-handed. So, agreed, you CAN mine with a Torch equipped. But the automatic Pickaxe usage is illogically and inconsistently two-handed when it should be one-handed.

2. You often can't hit a large Ore Vein for toffee despite being close enough to touch it. Apparently you have to "fish around" repeatedly swinging the Pickaxe until you happen to hit the right area so a hit is detected. This means manual mining is often MUCH slower than automatic mining because it might take you 20 swings to finally score a hit. Sometimes the right area is SO small that manual mining involves swinging and missing for ages (a waste of time). You end up resorting to automatic mining to avoid going bald (tearing your hair out in frustration, or before it falls out with age). Sneaking (crouching) to get as close as possible doesn't work either. You just swing the Pickaxe and recover from a swing much slower.

^ I took around 50 swings at one Orichalcum Vein before I finally gave up and just Activated it to automatically mine it. And yes, my Torch was unequipped and I had to manually RE-equip it afterwards.

3. When the Pickaxe is equipped, automatic mining (because you can't hit the vein for toffee) shows it IN your hands AND also sheathed on your belt. When you only have ONE Pickaxe in your Inventory, it looks like you have TWO Pickaxes, one in your hands, the other on your belt! Apparently, it's a quantum-entangled Pickaxe which can exist in two places at once, like an electron.

Not worth the bother, imo. I'll just cast a Candlelight spell like I've been doing (which will at least eventually get me an Alteration skill increase). And if the spell expires in mid-swing, I'll just imagine that I've "got my eye in" for where to aim the Pickaxe in the dark. In fact, mining is SO tedious that it's quicker to simply buy Ores from Merchants, then go to a Blacksmith who has a Smelter AND a Forge nearby so you can buy their Ores, smelt them into Ingots, forge new Weapons/Armor and sell 'em for massive profits.

On a different note, there's a logical inconsistency with Lydia as your Housecarl in Breezehome. It's due to a bug caused by a stupid illogical editing mistake on Bethesda's part. Lydia never sleeps because her bed has been placed the wrong way around. The animation node she's supposed to "use" to trigger the "get into bed" animation is incorrectly INSIDE the wall opposite the bed, so she can never USE her own bed! This has been fixed by the Unofficial Skyrim Patch v1.2.2, which rotates the bed 180 degrees so she CAN use it. In my game, this means she's finally slept off her massive 7 month 24/7 Mead drinking session. Reminds me of Father Jack Hackett in the comedy series Father Ted, in the episode "Cigarettes, Alcohol and Rollerblading", who when denied his beloved booze during Lent, finally sobers up after many years permanently sloshed and exclaims, "Don't tell me I'm still on that [&@%!]' island!?"

[CBR JGWRR]

Keep at it, it gets better with practice. It's very rare for me to have a vein that isn't manual mineable now...

If dust comes off, its a counted hit.

[Finn Wolfshorn]

If any of you can hew rock with a pickaxe one-handed in real life, I'm impressed beyond words; as for me, the two-handed animation is the only sensible thing. What they could have done is make it so you can put a lantern on the ground next to you; that would be realistic, holding torch in one hand and mining with the other wouldn't.

[Alnevar Odai]

You can come out of the ice-cold water and still light your torch.

I can shoot something or someone with an Arrow and it will run away. But not die of shock. Or leave a blood trail to find it, or worse... lure other animals to it.

All books have beautiful handwriting, or there exist a printing press that I know nothing about.

The "city" of Falkreath has a bard play Age of Aggression (pro imperial), when everyone in the city except the Jarl, is pro Stormcloak, 2 ex Stormcloaks, the thane, even the priest of arkay doesnt want the empire fighting.

[Evil-i]

If any of you can hew rock with a pickaxe one-handed in real life, I'm impressed beyond words; as for me, the two-handed animation is the only sensible thing. What they could have done is make it so you can put a lantern on the ground next to you; that would be realistic, holding torch in one hand and mining with the other wouldn't.

You're right, mining ore (or chopping wood) one-handedly is a real-life no-go. I like your Lantern idea, it makes a hell of a lot of sense. But that just brings up another inconsistency: All the Torches are lit, meaning you're walking around with a blazing stick jammed in your hip pocket. (I don't think a take-able unlit Torch even exists in the game.) On the other hand, you can only pick up unlit Lanterns, making them entirely useless. The ability to Take/Equip lit Lanterns would have been a nice touch, and would have been no more illogical than packing a perpetually-lit Torch. (I think Oblivion's Torches had a limited burn time before they extinguished, I have no idea if this feature has been carried over into Skyrim. There could have been a Skyrim game-play mechanic where the downside to carrying a heavier Lantern was balanced by having a longer burn time than a Torch.)

All books have beautiful handwriting, or there exist a printing press that I know nothing about.

I'm pretty sure Skyrim's literature is meant to be pre-printing press manuscripts. You bring up a good point, there is a woeful lack of diversity in handwriting styles.

[CBR JGWRR]

Are we sure? Most look like they have been printed...

Like Mixed Unit Tactics in the Five Years War, By Codus Callonus. (The first one in my inventory as to why this book)

[Evil-i]

It's an interesting question. I don't remember, was there anything resembling a printing press in Oblivion's Black Horse Courier offices? I suppose Cyrodiil might have the technology to produce multiple copies of pages by using presses and engraved inked metal plates, but something like Gutenberg's moveable type just doesn't feel right to me. Honestly, the only writing-related tools you encounter in the game are Quills, Inkwells, and Rolls of Paper.

Edit: Then again, just because you never meet certain crafts and trades people, that doesn't mean the results of their labour aren't in the game. For example, eventhough you can't take more than two steps without banging your shins against Barrels and Buckets, you never meet any woodworkers who specialize in coopering. Making liquid-tight containers out of wood is a highly-skilled trade, those aren't objects your average joe can just knock together.

[CBR JGWRR]

I can't say I've ever given it any thought before.

[Evil-i]

There are places where the water currents are so strong that it's almost impossible to swim upstream, yet the damn fish aren't affected.

And this has been bothering me for a while: I'll often find a Bee or two buzzing around the entrance to Riverwood that's closest to the bridge, but in spite of spending entirely too much time combing the area looking for the beehive, I've yet to find it. Is this just a game quirk, or is there a hidden beehive out there?

[CBR JGWRR]

Hidden Beehives, I've only ever found one, but they are out there.

Also, there are fish which spend their lives doing that, especially Salmon. (IIRC)

[Alnevar Odai]

There are places where the water currents are so strong that it's almost impossible to swim upstream, yet the damn fish aren't affected.

And this has been bothering me for a while: I'll often find a Bee or two buzzing around the entrance to Riverwood that's closest to the bridge, but in spite of spending entirely too much time combing the area looking for the beehive, I've yet to find it. Is this just a game quirk, or is there a hidden beehive out there?

The beehive is easiest seen from the island. Look to the guard post in Riverwood by the bridge.

And salmon DO naturally swim up rapids and small waterfalls.

Spoiler:

[Evil-i]

Thanks for the Riverwood beehive info. As for the fish thing, sorry that I didn't state my case clearly. I didn't have the jumping salmon in mind, it was an observation about the current strength in some areas of "horizontal" water, if that makes any sense. I've been in areas where it's impossible to make headway against the current, while River Betties and their ilk swim around easily.

[Frost Mage]

Thanks for the Riverwood beehive info. As for the fish thing, sorry that I didn't state my case clearly. I didn't have the jumping salmon in mind, it was an observation about the current strength in some areas of "horizontal" water, if that makes any sense. I've been in areas where it's impossible to make headway against the current, while River Betties and their ilk swim around easily.

Again, I'd assume that fish would swim faster than humans.

[Haravikk]

The main issue I have with water is that the direction of current in rivers rarely matches the actual river. It seems weird that Bethesda couldn't have found a way to automatically add current to rivers so when you put things in them (usually dead bodies) they at least try to float in the direction that the water is travelling. It's like someone selected a whole stretch of river and just went "eh, it goes roughly north" and made that the direction for the whole thing, even though it twists and turns, so you end up with a river rapidly flowing west to east that dumps everything in it on the northern bank, for example. It really annoys me as I love throwing bodies in rivers and following them as they're flung down waterfalls, it's one of those joyous things that needs to be done better

[TheManiac]

The one that comes to my mind is how such a large Frostbite Spider can hide in such a small tree. I don't think the tree would be able hold it's weight without bend over or even breaking entirely

[Vahrukiv]

Hidden Beehives, I've only ever found one, but they are out there.

there's one at the intersection after you've taken the path leading from Helgen, there's one behind the bandit camp near that mentioned area, there's one hanging above Embershard Mine, and then the one in riverwood that's been mentioned. That's four just on the road to Riverwood.

(it's a hobby of mine to find these things)