What Would You Change About Skyrim's Main Quest?

Dave2380 · Post by **Dave2380** » Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:54 pm

I would have liked to avoid the whole Blades/Paarthurnax ultimatum. Or failing that, be able to kill Delphine and Esbern. I find it really infuriating that Paarthurnax can be killed but Delphine can't. It's irritating, especially considering

Spoiler:

I'm okay with it otherwise. Yes it would be nice if the dragons were a bigger threat, maybe involving the five named dragons and Alduin descending on a city to deliver a "Surrender or die in flames." speech. But we can't have everything.

The SheoDovah · Post by **The SheoDovah** » Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:04 pm

I think Alduin would burn the city then demand surrender as he doesn't seem the type to delieve a surrender or die in flames speech before attacking. Plus, if he sensed we were nearby, he would focus on attacking us to avoid the other dragons becoming a big meal for you. Do agree that Dragons should have been a bigger threat and prehaps even have some cities besieged by a few dragons. Some could be using it as a trap for you, testing their thu'um against mortals or taking their time with burning it to the ground instead of burning it to the ground straight away etc..

Haravikk · Post by **Haravikk** » Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:48 pm

I think the main-quest was okay actually, my main problem with it is that by the time I got to Alduin on the two occasions I've finished the quest-lines, he ends up being one of the easiest dragon battles in the game. Odahving is far tougher if you try and fight him, probably because he's meant to be trapped and not defeated, but it means Alduin seems weak by comparison.

So I'd have made the Alduin battles scale better; making him much more difficult but adding to the utility of Paarthunax and the heroes of Sovngarde, specifically giving them abilities that allow them to distract Alduin anytime you're taking too much damage, so the battle isn't impossible, just lasts longer and is more epic, i.e - Alduin would slaughter you one-on-one, only the presence of allies gives you the fighting chance you need to put a stop to him once and for all.

I'd also have toned down the random dragons, maybe having random attacks become more common as the quest goes on (to the point that Ulfric and Tulius have to concede that there are more pressing matters). This being instead of all dragon encounters becoming active once Dragon Rising is completed. This way you could still do some early dragon battles by going to word-walls, but without them randomly dropping down every few minutes; because of the current random battles I don't do Dragon Rising anymore except for characters where shouts are part of my plan for how I want to play them.

I think I also would have liked more to do with the Blades; I know some people are sick of them but I would have liked to be able to make Cloud Ruler temple more of a worthy base, and there definitely should have been a way to avoid the Paarthunax issue with them, as their stubbornness was just stupid and really made it hard to accept them as characters, maybe if they'd made the demand after Alduin the big evil world-eating dragon had been stopped, but not right as you're about to try and stop him! It would have also been nice to have had someone to take along to Skuldafn; sending one person on their own to an unknown temple and the land of the dead doesn't exactly strike me as sound strategy, but then Oblivion didn't do much better with its last set of quests

Anyway, it was still enjoyable and suitably epic. Personally I felt it was let down more by the very unsatisfying civil war options. Also, the lack of any ability to act on the Thalmor information about Ulfric had me shaking my head as well.

Finn Wolfshorn · Post by **Finn Wolfshorn** » Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:38 pm

Haravikk wrote:I'd also have toned down the random dragons, maybe having random attacks become more common as the quest goes on (to the point that Ulfric and Tulius have to concede that there are more pressing matters). This being instead of all dragon encounters becoming active once Dragon Rising is completed. This way you could still do some early dragon battles by going to word-walls, but without them randomly dropping down every few minutes

^This! From a game mechanics POV the random attacks are of course the game's method to provide you with enough souls to fully unlock all shouts, but they should have few and far between at first, getting more and more frequent as you proceed in the quest, making it more urgent to deal with Alduin. (If anyone here has played The Bard's Tale 2004, that game did that right, making its world ever darker, more screwed up and populated with undead as you progressed - funnily, as we find out at the end,

Spoiler:

.)

Haravikk wrote:It would have also been nice to have had someone to take along to Skuldafn; sending one person on their own to an unknown temple and the land of the dead doesn't exactly strike me as sound strategy, but then Oblivion didn't do much better with its last set of quests

No, I'd say they did that right. It's all too comfortable to rely on followers, and provided you've given them decent gear they can make the game a lot easier; it's only fair that we should have to fight one last fight alone and find out what we're made of when we're on our own - and in the last fight we've got help anyway.

Haravikk wrote:Anyway, it was still enjoyable and suitably epic. Personally I felt it was let down more by the very unsatisfying civil war options. Also, the lack of any ability to act on the Thalmor information about Ulfric had me shaking my head as well.

Fully agreed.

As for the Blades, I feel killing them would be an over-reaction, but it would be nice if we could just tell them "Screw you, I'm not gonna do this" and fail their quest for good instead of it cluttering our already overcluttered questlog forever.

SajuukKhar · Post by **SajuukKhar** » Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:59 pm

Finn Wolfshorn wrote: ^This! From a game mechanics POV the random attacks are of course the game's method to provide you with enough souls to fully unlock all shouts, but they should have few and far between at first, getting more and more frequent as you proceed in the quest, making it more urgent to deal with Alduin.

that is exactly how it works currently in-game.

As you complete more of the MQ the dragon attacks increase in frequency, and after beating the MQ they go back down to pretty much never frequency they had at the beginning of the game.

Finn Wolfshorn · Post by **Finn Wolfshorn** » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:41 am

Not in my experience. I have a character who never spoke to the Greybeards, never learned RO & DAH, couldn't care less for the horn of Jurgen Windcaller and is content to let Esbern rot in the Ratway, and she gets just as many random dragon attacks as all the others. Once I complete Dragon Rising it's all the same.

Lethandhrel One-Eye · Post by **Lethandhrel One-Eye** » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:40 am

^^

Morrobloodtribunal, Oblivering Knights, Skydawnfire

Love it!

Finn Wolfshorn · Post by **Finn Wolfshorn** » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:45 am

Thanks! I look forward to expanding the last one to Skydawnfireborn.

snapple · Post by **snapple** » Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:33 pm

I would have preferred to have a bit of doubt surrounding my character to begin with. Like, more than there was.

CBR JGWRR · Post by **CBR JGWRR** » Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:47 pm

What do you mean? The only certainty was you were in a cart about to be executed...

snapple · Post by **snapple** » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:14 pm

CBR JGWRR wrote:What do you mean? The only certainty was you were in a cart about to be executed...

once it is found out you are the dovahkiin, you pretty much are thrown into the thick of it.

CBR JGWRR · Post by **CBR JGWRR** » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:51 pm

snapple wrote:
CBR JGWRR wrote:What do you mean? The only certainty was you were in a cart about to be executed...
once it is found out you are the dovahkiin, you pretty much are thrown into the thick of it.

Nothing really changes though, just a few bits of guard's speech, and the Greybeards.

I agree, it would be nice if it was easier to avoid doing Dragon Rising...

TheManiac · Post by **TheManiac** » Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:46 am

IT would be much better if there were different, defined paths to defeating alduin, such as following the blades more or following paarthurnax.

Mattbott · Post by **Mattbott** » Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:03 am

i think a lot of the issues i have are to do with bits of it being edited down to make it neatly fit within the 20-30 hour length the devs seem to like

eg Paarthunax situation could have been explored, with a whole coda to the main story where P and Esbern actually meet and talk. This could have easily been done by revealing that P has actually been a patron of the blades for the last 1000 years or something, and that P advised emperors via secret channels (ie they never suspected he was a dragon), until he had to move to Skyrim to prepare the greybeards for the coming of Alduin. Would have loved to see more of Esbern in action

i'd have intergrated the civil war with the main quest to make MQ that much longer, and then left the defeat of Alduin as a springboard into dealing with the real threat (Thalmor).

so for me i would do a 're shuffling and adding at the end' sort of exercise, rather than actual changing. You could keep all the dungeons and fights the same cos imo theyre pretty solid, just change the story flowing them all together

Haravikk · Post by **Haravikk** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:54 pm

Finn Wolfshorn wrote:No, I'd say they did that right. It's all too comfortable to rely on followers, and provided you've given them decent gear they can make the game a lot easier; it's only fair that we should have to fight one last fight alone and find out what we're made of when we're on our own - and in the last fight we've got help anyway.

I didn't really mean mechanically; it just doesn't make sense from a gameplay point of view as Odahving merely acts as a taxi so he doesn't help you any, and there is so much riding on this that it just doesn't make sense that you're sent on your own. They could have simply had someone accompany you for Skuldafn but give a reason why they can't follow you into Sovngarde (only someone with a dragon soul can go there and return or something).

I do agree that as they are in Skyrim followers can make things worse, it's why I'm hoping they focus some more on multi-participant combat changes in the next game, now that the core combat mechanics are pretty fluid. One of the things that Skyrim, like the games before it, suffers from is that because they're so free-form many battles lack any kind of structure, which can make things very haphazard and messy. So it'd be nice to have more battles designed with more specific options for using followers as a distraction while you flank the enemy, or for more powerful bosses to be really powerful, but engineered so they won't necessarily kill the player outright, as opposed to the current case where a strong melee boss can potentially one-shot you. For example; the Alduin battle could have been more epic if he was a lot harder (easily able to kill the player), but with your allies providing scripted distractions, while you try to do the same to keep them in the fight; things like jumping onto his back, or trying to get yourself or your allies into position to slash at his wings so he can't take off. All these little touches are needed in the larger boss-battles, especially for stealthy characters to fight bosses that they can't one-shot or remain hidden from. This ventures more into game-mechanics though so it's more of something for TES VI rather than a change to Skyrim, but it's one of those things that didn't really work right in Oblivion that still holds Skyrim back. Consider for example boss battles in other games, where the mechanics are much more refined; obviously they lack a lot of the TES series' freedom, but I think some of the ideas can be carried over for the important boss-battles as opposed to random levelled enemies.

SajuukKhar wrote:^This! From a game mechanics POV the random attacks are of course the game's method to provide you with enough souls to fully unlock all shouts, but they should have few and far between at first, getting more and more frequent as you proceed in the quest, making it more urgent to deal with Alduin.

As you complete more of the MQ the dragon attacks increase in frequency, and after beating the MQ they go back down to pretty much never frequency they had at the beginning of the game.[/quote]
Unfortunately not; as soon as Dragon Rising is complete all dragon encounters randomly and at word walls begin, with the exception of a few of the named dragons I think. There is then no change in the frequency of attacks even once the quest line is finished; not without mods anyway, which leaves console users stuck with having to either not do Dragon Rising (and thus have no access to shouts) or put up with the constant attacks. I mean, I love epic dragon battles when I go to a word wall, or even sometimes when the occur in or near cities, but otherwise they do become a bit of a pain after a while, especially for a stealth character who can't easily hide from a circling dragon in the middle of the day!

I'm not sure if it really counts as part of the main quest, but I would have liked more of a start on character levelling; I know the mantra is level by doing, but the game start in Skyrim is a bit too much of a blank-slate for me, which kind of spoils the idea that you're supposed to be whatever you want to be. For example; how do you create a character who is an accomplished assassin that disguised himself as a Stormcloak to get near a target only to fall foul of the Imperial ambush? Because even if you choose a stealthy race your character isn't much use at any of the appropriate skills. It would have been good if during the cart ride you were asked what you are; even if it boiled down to Mage, Thief or Warrior it could still give a bit of a head-start with some starting skill boosts and a few perk points. At least in Oblivion you don't know how long your character has actually been in prison, so you could assume they were in for long enough to have become rusty at various skills.

philfredobob · Post by **philfredobob** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:27 am

Mattbott wrote:i think a lot of the issues i have are to do with bits of it being edited down to make it neatly fit within the 20-30 hour length the devs seem to like

eg Paarthunax situation could have been explored, with a whole coda to the main story where P and Esbern actually meet and talk. This could have easily been done by revealing that P has actually been a patron of the blades for the last 1000 years or something, and that P advised emperors via secret channels (ie they never suspected he was a dragon), until he had to move to Skyrim to prepare the greybeards for the coming of Alduin. Would have loved to see more of Esbern in action

i'd have intergrated the civil war with the main quest to make MQ that much longer, and then left the defeat of Alduin as a springboard into dealing with the real threat (Thalmor).

so for me i would do a 're shuffling and adding at the end' sort of exercise, rather than actual changing. You could keep all the dungeons and fights the same cos imo theyre pretty solid, just change the story flowing them all together

Indeed
i originally thought that the Civil War would be part of the Main quest, as the trailer for skyrim seemed to indicate it was a big deal (''when the children of skyrim would spill their own blood'') because without the civil war to back it up, the Main quest has no Emotional impact, literally nothing! so they could have used the civil war and made it so they put their diffrences aside to fight the common enemy, which even with Season Unending, they never really do !
i know that it takes away from the choices in the game, seeing as you wouldnt be able to choose a single side to join in the war , but to be honest, i would rather have the main quest be good, than have a lot of choices (i know, i know, its an RPG, but i still hold to this opinion)

Toki Wartooth · Post by **Toki Wartooth** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:56 pm

My apologies if this message isn't exactly up to par. It's my first post after all. I personally really enjoyed skyrims mq all around. One thing that I always thought would be a great addition to the story would be to give me an option between the stormcloaks and empire. I always thought it would be sweet to be able to say screw the stormcloaks and empire I'm taking skyrim for myself. Perhaps they could create a dlc where you can side with the forsworn and lead them in the conquest of skyrim.

CBR JGWRR · Post by **CBR JGWRR** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:03 pm

Toki Wartooth wrote:My apologies if this message isn't exactly up to par. It's my first post after all. I personally really enjoyed skyrims mq all around. One thing that I always thought would be a great addition to the story would be to give me an option between the stormcloaks and empire. I always thought it would be sweet to be able to say screw the stormcloaks and empire I'm taking skyrim for myself. Perhaps they could create a dlc where you can side with the forsworn and lead them in the conquest of skyrim.

Spoiler:

Welcome, and it's a good idea to read this lot: http://forums.uesp.net/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=28949

Chessalavakia · Post by **Chessalavakia** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:59 pm

I'd split increase the number of paths and make it more faction based or even independent.

The factions that can deal with the Dragons are: The Greybeards, The Thalmor, The Blades, The Mage's and Vampires that are all over.

Each of the factions could have a slightly deviated story that would meet and divide at different points with spots that one could potentially swap sides.

I'd also greatly change what Dragonborn is. Dragons would temporarily have their souls captured by nearby individuals on death occasionally that seemed the most dragon like or had the most interactions with dragons. A Dragonborn or a Mage could also soul trap them. This will happen to the player and cause the initial belief that you are Dragonborn. Instead of something you are born into anyone can become a Dragonborn based on the belief of yourself and others kinda like Talos. The player could choose to not be Dragonborn.

The Dragonborn poses a problem for many of the factions. The Thalmor will not want another Talos but they will want the player to help them. The Vampire's and Mage's want the dragon born's help but, they'd rather control him. As a result the plot would change based on your acceptance of the mantle. Some individuals would be aware of the fact that Dragonborn is based on belief. Others may accept the mantle as well.

For a person that worked independently if they were the dragonborn they'd occasionally get help or hints from people and if they were not they'd have to run into the information the hard way by either bumping into it or killing someone with the information on them or stealing it.

CreeperX · Post by **CreeperX** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:30 pm

^
I would like something like that. It would greatly enhance the roleplaying. I for example am a bit annoyed how I'm forced to become an enemy of the Thalmor. They are jerks yeah but I would still like the option to be on good terms with them. They have plenty of resources to investigate the whole Dragon business and both parties could achieve benefits from co-operating.

philfredobob · Post by **philfredobob** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:02 pm

i always hated the Mission ''Diplomatic Immunity''

not only does it immediatley make it so the Thalmor are your enemys and you must kill them or be killed, it also made absolutely no sense to me.

I found skyrims main quest incredibly poor, there didnt seem to have been much thought put into it, just a few hastily thrown together quests that felt Discombobulated (if that isnt a real word, as i suspect

, then it basicly means ''All over the place'' )

Chessalavakia wrote:I'd also greatly change what Dragonborn is. Dragons would temporarily have their souls captured by nearby individuals on death occasionally that seemed the most dragon like or had the most interactions with dragons. A Dragonborn or a Mage could also soul trap them. This will happen to the player and cause the initial belief that you are Dragonborn. Instead of something you are born into anyone can become a Dragonborn based on the belief of yourself and others kinda like Talos. The player could choose to not be Dragonborn.

that is a good idea, it would have been interesting. seeing as it was revealed in the trailer, and on the back of the CD case, and in basicly all info on the game that your character would be Dragonborn, there should have been another twist, something to surprise us !
so yeah, good idea !

CBR JGWRR · Post by **CBR JGWRR** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:19 pm

TBF, you can complete diplomatic immunity with no thalmor casulties...

Play as an Altmer, (humans, bosmer and dunmer might get away with it) give a set of thalmor hooded robes to Malborn, and until the solar can be garanteed zero deaths, and inside the solar requires a bit more stealth, but doable.

The point was to sneak around, pick up the dossiers on Delphine, Esbern and Ulfric, with the dragon report, and then get back to Delphine so that she can get annoyed when you tell her they know as much as she does...

It would be nice if the Thalmor were a joinable faction in a way.

Mattbott · Post by **Mattbott** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:10 pm

yes it would. The diplomatic immunity I think rightly assumes the Thalmor aren't going to give up what you want no matter how good you are to them, so your best chance of not harming them is to stealth it up.

you are essentially working for the blades who are their sworn enemies, so to join Thalmor you need to kill blades, which messes up the game as it stands

philfredobob · Post by **philfredobob** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:31 pm

CBR JGWRR wrote:TBF, you can complete diplomatic immunity with no thalmor casulties...

Play as an Altmer, (humans, bosmer and dunmer might get away with it) give a set of thalmor hooded robes to Malborn, and until the solar can be garanteed zero deaths, and inside the solar requires a bit more stealth, but doable.

The point was to sneak around, pick up the dossiers on Delphine, Esbern and Ulfric, with the dragon report, and then get back to Delphine so that she can get annoyed when you tell her they know as much as she does...

It would be nice if the Thalmor were a joinable faction in a way.

thats not what i meant when i said what i said, but thats my own fault, i used the wrong phrase, my apologies

allow me to rephrase what i said :

the quest diplomatic immunity meant that they were established as an enemy, who will be hostile to you wether or not you kill any of them (as they are in the next quest which involves esbern in the Ratway anyways

)

and the first (and only) time i did ''Diplomatic Immunity'', i did it without ''obvious'' casualties

but i killed a few hehe, but what im saying is i didnt do an all out assault on the Embassy, and instead snuck about

but anyways, like i said, the thalmor appear in the next quest when you are looking for esbern in the Ratway, marked as enemys

Unionhack · Post by **Unionhack** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:34 pm

More racial differences.

If I'm playing as an Altmer, or a Khajiit, or basically anything other than a nord, I want some of the local nords to be [&@%!] about it. If rascism is one of the themes in the Elder Scrolls (at least in Skyrim), I want it to show more in the main quest, if not the game overall. It doesn't need to impact gameplay, just reactions from other characters.

I hope this doesn't make me sound rascist, it'd just be interesting to see.

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