Future of Dragons

[legoless]

And if the DB doesn't exist and dragons some how find their way into Oblivion, it will be a blood bath, Dagon will win it, but not with out mass destruction of his realm. It will take how ever amount of time to rebuild and replenish all the lost souls. Alduin can already eat the dead, could he eat the daedra? I'm not saying it's a victory for the Dragons, but only to emphasive that objectively on a level playing field Dragon> Daedra, any day.

A dragon doesn't stand a chance against an army of daedra. See Dragonne Papre.

[Br3admax]

And what do you mean, Da_Boss, that "Dragons don't die. Period"? Dragons can die(See Skyrim), and those that are beaten stay dormant until Alduin, who is gone, raises them. And Mortals can beat them, so Dragons can die and be out forever. Daedra, on the other hand, do not take someone healing them for them to come back to life. They simply reform in Oblivion and attack again. Dragons are in a finite number, as mentioned, while the Daedra are numerous and completely unbeatable, and the mortals can reproduce. Dragons are at a significant disadvantage.

[SajuukKhar]

And what do you mean, Da_Boss, that "Dragons don't die. Period"? Dragons can die(See Skyrim), and those that are beaten stay dormant until Alduin, who is gone, raises them. And Mortals can beat them, so Dragons can die and be out forever. Daedra, on the other hand, do not take someone healing them for them to come back to life. They simply reform in Oblivion and attack again. Dragons are in a finite number, as mentioned, while the Daedra are numerous and completely unbeatable, and the mortals can reproduce. Dragons are at a significant disadvantage.

Actually, if you go to a Dragon Mound before the dragon there is raise,d you can actually get them to talk to you through th e mounds.

the Dragons arent dead, they are just buried and unable to move.

Thier souls are trapped in their bones, and they have shown the ability to walk without flesh.

[Da_BossMaN69]

breadmax you're missing the point.

For starters mortals can kill daedra too so that argument makes no sense.

A daedra in a fight against a dragon will lose, doesn't matter if it dies and can be brought back to life. It isn't some respawn system where they count to ten and come back it takes a long amount of time. One dragon could easily conquer a deadland island by itself. I mean for god's sake it's all air power. Archery is [&@%!] poor against a dragon who can simply fly around burning or freezing everything in it's path.

And in a full out invasion dragons aren't alone, they too have massive armies of draugr too aide them.

Sure Dragons can be killed but only temporarily, if Alduin is around who other than Mehrunes himself, who may be physically lacking a body, is going to touch him? Certainly not any Dremora or Xivalia. He'll just come back and raise them back to life.

And again I'm not saying an invasion would work, it wouldn't I'm simply saying Dragons against Daedra. Dragons would win, even in their own home turf. If Mehrunes couldn't stop the invasion personally, and it was just left to the common dremora and daedra, they lose.

Just look at the game. How many times have you seen daedra beat a dragon? Hell I have to use two dremora lords at once to kill one dragon of the weakest level. Agaisnt an ancient? Forget it, I'd simply be wasting my magicka.

[legoless]

You're applying game mechanics to lore. There are giant flying daedra, daedric turrets, magical artifacts of great power, armies of Dremora in the Deadlands alone. Dragons aren't all-powerful, even if they happen to be the strongest enemies in Skyrim. Assuming that a few dragons could conquer a daedric realm is not only conjectural, but inaccurate.

[The SheoDovah]

Without a Dovahkiin, Dragons can't be truely killed due to their souls being in their bodies thus allowing Alduin to bring them back to life. The Dovahkiin is the cataylst that is required to kill them for good. Which is why they fear him as he is the only mortal in Skyrim that can devour their souls thus killing them for good. If they were to invade the deadlands with their armies and Alduin is still alive, they would lose as Dagon could make it very dangerous to fly, combine that with his armies being endless and unable to be killed for good, they would be outnumbered and facing a Daedric Prince who would be at his full power and can change his form at a moment's notice(Assuming Princes can do that in their realms). All he would need to do is flood the deadlands with Lava, make it rain fire all of the time and they would be defeated. Even with Alduin ressurecting.

[Riothamus]

For reference:

I feel like it's necessary to define whats being talked about.

You have a Daedra, lets say the lowliest of Dremora Caitiffs. That Daedra may have a seemingly autonomous nature. It acts of it's own accord. But that Caitiff is really, just part of Mehrunes Dagon. As is that volcano in the Deadlands and the lava that comes out of it. The Caitiff exists seperately because Mehrunes Dagon wills it to be so. At any point in time he can just take that little piece of him back from being autonomous into the collective of what Mehrunes Dagon is. Mehrunes Dagon is not the multi-armed man beast you saw at the end of Oblivion. That's just his avatar, his chosen form. Many Daedra infact have multiple forms that they appear as. Mehrunes Dagon is concept, an existing amorphous concept that solidifies itself in the form of a plane of Oblivion and appears, named, as Mehrunes Dagon. That concept is infinite and for lack of a better way to phrase it, omnipotent when not bound by the laws of mundus (i.e. "in" his home plane).

A Dragon is a flying magical being that was beget from an Aedra. An Aedra was once a Daedra (an amorphous omnipotent boundless concept) that gave it's life (willingly or unwillingly, jury is still out on that) to form a concrete reality that was capable of exisiting despite the will of it's creators. In the case of Dragons, that Aedra was Akatosh and time is the concept which the "idea" of Akatosh embodies. Dragons are his children. They are not unkillable, though since they are beget from time itself they have what seems to us to be an unlimited lifespan. Paarthanux has knowledge of kalpas so he understand the concept of the "time" of one world so it may be an infinite lifespan. That lifespan can be cut short when their soul is absorbed by a Dragonborn (or perhaps anything with a soul of a dragon...a.k.a. another dragon). Regardless of whether or not the soul is absorbed their bodies can still be sundered. They can be brought down, even if it is not permanently. Their shouts can effect reality. But they are not infinite. Not only are they, in singular not infinite, but they are numbered. They are countable.

Deadra are not countable. They are seemingly infinitely divisible. As Legoless mentioned you are applying game mechanics to lore. While our character may run in and stomp on some Oblivion gates or have a hassle with taking down an Ancient Dragon, they are not equatable. Dragons are not represented in their full strength for mechanics/programming reasons (see my previous post that mentions Thu'um) and Daedra and not represented in their full capacity either for mechanics/progamming reasons.

From an idea of what both represent it would be a nasty nasty battle. But if a Daedric Prince ever brought it's full power to bear on a Dragon or, hell, a group of Dragons, that Dragon would be stomped. I mean stomped.

It took the avatar of an Aedra to send back the avatar of a Daedric Prince. And Mehrunes was not on his home turf. The Oblivion Crisis was seriously eff'ed up. I'd say it was about 3 times as worse than dragons coming back. take that into consideration.

[Da_BossMaN69]

I understand you guy's logic completely I'm not denying it, I'm simply saying that you have to look at it away from the Lore view-point.

Lore doesn't dictate the games, it's the other way around. I mean look at what dragons are now. At first they were just flying lizards that shoot fire, now they're Aedric beings, or at the very least an immortal harbinger of Doom.

I Know a Daedra is supposed to be an otherworldly god of infinite power, but it's not really. I mean how can one be greater than others and how can one be weaker than others? Compare Peryite to Jyggalag. One was so great the other Daedra had to lessen him. How can he be reduced if a Daedra is infinitely strong? How can one such as Peryite be lesser than all the others?

As shown in the games and Lore stated in-game Daedra do not win 24/7 nor are they as entirely omnipotent and invincible as you think they are. If Dagon is as strong as he is, why let mortals simply stomp around and bring down his armies before him?

"Because then there would be no enemy to truly win against and in turn no game". But that's the point I'm making at the end of the day Game > Lore. This is video game Lore, defined by the game. If we beat Dagon's armies in game and routinely stomp his soldiers in game, than it's rendered a possibility for others, especially since we did in fact bring others to do so in game as a Quest.

And I'm not saying that if we can levitate items simply by holding "a" in game that means every individual in Tamriel has that ability or other game play mechanics like that, that hold no true purpose in game with out an explanation.

I'm just getting the point across: If it appears in game and has concrete logic behind it than it's rendered Lore. For example, going back to the Quest with the Bruma guards.

Since we showed them how to bring down a gate, it's implied that they and other guards might use the same technique later on. We may not have proof, but because it was an addressed issue with a purpose that only applied to Story that can be considered Lore.

We have never been told that we can pick up an item by an NPC, nor have they ever hinted at the ability to do so other than through use of telekinesis,and no NPC has ever done it themselves, there fore we can simply label that as a game play mechanic with no purpose other than to ease the burden of the developers from having to make additional holding animations.

So again going back to the topic at hand. If normal humans can invade a deadland island and kill off it's inhabitants, provided they have the skill and strength to do so, than so too could a dragon.

Lets continue with this logically.

A dragon won't win all the time, sure a Dremora archer could get in several clean hits on a dragon and bring it down, I'm not debating that.

What I am debating is that a Dragon when entering Oblivion is suddenly rendered as a rag doll subjugated to the will of the prince. It's not like that as shown in game. And if we can get away with it maybe it's because Dagon can't have total view or access to his realm 24/7, look at the Shivering Isles.

When we hit Sheogorath he sends us falling to our doom, however if he could do this to all the time, why allow the grey-march? He may be insane but he hates the greymarch and clearly does not permit it. So why not abolish an Obelisk because he can't.

Going with this same vein of discussion how can Sheogorath even stay Sheogorath given his origin? How is it Jyggalag can pose a threat to the other princes? If each realm is as you guys say an extension of their own will and power how is it some one can simply enforce their own will/power over the other's?

If this was the case all the princes should be at equilibrium. One could never conquer the other and if this was the case how could there be lesser and greater princes. If each could never touch the other, or become more powerful than the other since each is infinitely powerful in his own realm, what would be the deciding factor in judging who is greater and who is lesser?

Therefore the case has to be if one obtains enough power over a Prince, then they can beat a Prince. And this is the reoccurring theme in TES Lore, power. If one gets enough power than they can be greater than even a God, and power is not limited in the TES World. If mortals can tap into the power of a God and become full-fledged gods themselves then viola they are now the Tribunal rivaling the Daedra themselves.

Simarily if worship is power than the Nine are more powerful than the Daedra due to the worship they recieve from Mortals. If this is the case then it is perfectly logical and consistent with Lore to assume that Akatosh can defeat Dagon.

And by that extension Dragons can defeat Daedra, because Dragons come from a greater being than the Daedra do. And before we can go into this realm thing again which may not even be true entirely (and one whose source I very much so want to see) consider this. If Mundus is a realm of the Nine and they have control over it what's the worry of Dagon invading they can simply kick him out.

And if the answer is because the gates are open and the daedra can now invade than that would imply that not only is it possible for another being to invade their realm but that also at that moment the realm begins up for grabs. And as we've seen if the playing field is now leveled and since Dagon did invade in "his true and terrible form" and Akatosh did kick his ass back to Oblivion.

Than Akatosh is greater than Dagon and as an extension a dragon is greater than a daedra (being not prince, e.g. Dremora/etc.)

I simply end the argument here for now asking you guys to look over what I've said and hope it makes sense because honestly I just wrote a [&@%!] ton about lore over a video game and not only have I gone pretty in depth over something so trivial, but I just don't want to write a college essay's worth on this topic at the moment.

I won't return to this thread because frankly this all I can say at the topic at the hand hopefully any question or argument you have I have a rebuttal or answer in this mammoth of a post.


With that being said Dragons FTW I hope to see them in TES VI: Summerset Isles (hopefully)

[Br3admax]

Okay, I'm about to take a sledgehammer to this. I apologies in advance.

I understand you guy's logic completely I'm not denying it, I'm simply saying that you have to look at it away from the Lore view-point.

This has always been about lore. Some of which you may have been mistaken on.

Lore doesn't dictate the games, it's the other way around. I mean look at what dragons are now. At first they were just flying lizards that shoot fire, now they're Aedric beings, or at the very least an immortal harbinger of Doom.

No, they are not Aedric. Seriously, do not say that anymore. Aderic means that they participated in creation. Just no. Also, they have always been talking. The Thu'um is nothing new. And games dictate the lore. Farther from the truth.

I Know a Daedra is supposed to be an otherworldly god of infinite power, but it's not really. I mean how can one be greater than others and how can one be weaker than others? Compare Peryite to Jyggalag. One was so great the other Daedra had to lessen him. How can he be reduced if a Daedra is infinitely strong? How can one such as Peryite be lesser than all the others?

Who, ever, said they had infinite power? No one ever thought that. CHIM is the ultimate power, not being a Daedra.

As shown in the games and Lore stated in-game Daedra do not win 24/7 nor are they as entirely omnipotent and invincible as you think they are. If Dagon is as strong as he is, why let mortals simply stomp around and bring down his armies before him?

Again, no one said he was all powerfull. Also CoC, like a living god. Good luck stopping him with minions.

"Because then there would be no enemy to truly win against and in turn no game". But that's the point I'm making at the end of the day Game > Lore. This is video game Lore, defined by the game. If we beat Dagon's armies in game and routinely stomp his soldiers in game, than it's rendered a possibility for others, especially since we did in fact bring others to do so in game as a Quest.

Yeah, most of the lore you say about Talos wasn't even in game. Or anywhere, for that matter. You trump yourself here.

And I'm not saying that if we can levitate items simply by holding "a" in game that means every individual in Tamriel has that ability or other game play mechanics like that, that hold no true purpose in game with out an explanation.

What are you talking about. In game, people see you using your hands to pick up items. *facepalm*

I'm just getting the point across: If it appears in game and has concrete logic behind it than it's rendered Lore. For example, going back to the Quest with the Bruma guards.

Since we showed them how to bring down a gate, it's implied that they and other guards might use the same technique later on. We may not have proof, but because it was an addressed issue with a purpose that only applied to Story that can be considered Lore.

I still don't get your point, and for that I apologize. But what are you even saying? We already know they can do that.

We have never been told that we can pick up an item by an NPC, nor have they ever hinted at the ability to do so other than through use of telekinesis,and no NPC has ever done it themselves, there fore we can simply label that as a game play mechanic with no purpose other than to ease the burden of the developers from having to make additional holding animations.

See some of above.

So again going back to the topic at hand. If normal humans can invade a deadland island and kill off it's inhabitants, provided they have the skill and strength to do so, than so too could a dragon.

Dragons are not as strong as you think. Humans can defeat them, too.

Lets continue with this logically.

*snickers* Okay.

A dragon won't win all the time, sure a Dremora archer could get in several clean hits on a dragon and bring it down, I'm not debating that.

What I am debating is that a Dragon when entering Oblivion is suddenly rendered as a rag doll subjugated to the will of the prince. It's not like that as shown in game. And if we can get away with it maybe it's because Dagon can't have total view or access to his realm 24/7, look at the Shivering Isles.

No, that is just wrong. Dagon is the Deadlands. He knows what is going on, it's his body.

When we hit Sheogorath he sends us falling to our doom, however if he could do this to all the time, why allow the grey-march? He may be insane but he hates the greymarch and clearly does not permit it. So why not abolish an Obelisk because he can't.

He causes the Greymarch, and that was in game. Trumped again.

Going with this same vein of discussion how can Sheogorath even stay Sheogorath given his origin? How is it Jyggalag can pose a threat to the other princes? If each realm is as you guys say an extension of their own will and power how is it some one can simply enforce their own will/power over the other's?

Calm spells can do it. I'm sure a few Daedric Princes can.

If this was the case all the princes should be at equilibrium. One could never conquer the other and if this was the case how could there be lesser and greater princes. If each could never touch the other, or become more powerful than the other since each is infinitely powerful in his own realm, what would be the deciding factor in judging who is greater and who is lesser?

A group of Daedric Princes banded together. And Jyggalag was stronger than all of them individually.

Therefore the case has to be if one obtains enough power over a Prince, then they can beat a Prince. And this is the reoccurring theme in TES Lore, power. If one gets enough power than they can be greater than even a God, and power is not limited in the TES World. If mortals can tap into the power of a God and become full-fledged gods themselves then viola they are now the Tribunal rivaling the Daedra themselves.

Again, you are only just making up this argument. No one said that they were all powerful. The power you speak of comes from gods. And Dragons want to be worshipped. They only run on their on power.

Simarily if worship is power than the Nine are more powerful than the Daedra due to the worship they recieve from Mortals. If this is the case then it is perfectly logical and consistent with Lore to assume that Akatosh can defeat Dagon.

Seriously, where is this argument coming from?

And by that extension Dragons can defeat Daedra, because Dragons come from a greater being than the Daedra do. And before we can go into this realm thing again which may not even be true entirely (and one whose source I very much so want to see) consider this. If Mundus is a realm of the Nine and they have control over it what's the worry of Dagon invading they can simply kick him out.

Just no. That makes no since at all. The Daedra are not all powerful, but neither are the Nine. Also, I shed skin cells everyday. They aren't as strong as me. To the other point:The Daedra are their realms too. Pick up a in-game Book, The Lunar Lorkhan

A

nd if the answer is because the gates are open and the daedra can now invade than that would imply that not only is it possible for another being to invade their realm but that also at that moment the realm begins up for grabs. And as we've seen if the playing field is now leveled and since Dagon did invade in "his true and terrible form" and Akatosh did kick his ass back to Oblivion.

Than Akatosh is greater than Dagon and as an extension a dragon is greater than a daedra (being not prince, e.g. Dremora/etc.)

Dremora are greater than Man and Mer, and Man and Mer can beat Dragons. Your point doesn't make since anyway. See above.

I simply end the argument here for now asking you guys to look over what I've said and hope it makes sense because honestly I just wrote a [&@%!] ton about lore over a video game and not only have I gone pretty in depth over something so trivial, but I just don't want to write a college essay's worth on this topic at the moment.

I won't return to this thread because frankly this all I can say at the topic at the hand hopefully any question or argument you have I have a rebuttal or answer in this mammoth of a post.

Not to offend, but this argument made little since. Most of it wasn't even the point we were making. But it was well thought out. Kudos to you.

With that being said Dragons FTW I hope to see them in TES VI: Summerset Isles (hopefully)

That we can agree on.

[Da_BossMaN69]

Alright I simply can't leave the argument there considering you just said no to a majority of my arguments, so either one of us is being stubborn or you're just not understanding me due to mis-communication or I'm not being clear enough, sorry. So I'll try to simplify it to the best of my ability so as to clear all confusion.

Look here's what I'm trying to say:

If you have a dragon and a group of dremora and/or a few beasts (daedroth, clanfear, etc.) 90% of the time the dragon would win in that battle.

The point about the realms was this. The Prince of the realm can not bend any individual to their whim. Meaning if said dragon does enter the Deadlands then Mehrunes can't simply turn them into a ferret simply from pure whim. Why do I say this?

Because in game we were actively fighting Dagon's army and yet he can't just poof us out of existence, like wise how can Jyggalag pose a threat, even if the Prince of that realm has absolute and total mastery over every thing in his/her realm? This would mean his invasion would be useless. And you yourself said it and agree Prince's all not infinitely powerful so that being said why is it Dragons can't logically do what they do on Nirn in the Deadlands to some degree of success.

Keep this mental image/ scenario in mind and tell me why it can or can't happen.

You have a dragon. It enters Oblivion and starts killing off Daedra left and right. It remains a menace in that realm for an extended period of time until some one kills it. The prince can't simply expel him, so he is forced to do battle with it or send a champion to kill it, provided this champion can.

And in regards to the Aedric being thing this is purely a language debate. I call them Aedric to show they came from Aedra. Like how one would call a BMW a german car, it is not a citizen of Germany. I thought that would be understood.

Angels are divine, but we don't call them a deity.

And in regards to Akatosh: Dragon > Dagon: Dremora. Here's what I'm trying to say. If Akatosh is more powerful than Dagon, than it stands to reason that anything he creates will be more powerful than anything Dagon can create. Let's use money as a substitute for power.

If I am more wealthy than you it stands to reason the most expensive car I can buy will cost more than the car you can buy. Folllow that logic?

So hopefully the discrepancies we've had are now clear.

And if it continues let's just make a separate thread for Dragons vs Daedra. Right now the point is if Dragons belong in the next game. Just pm me if you want to argue me, We'll make a thread and continue it there. Sorry to derail the post.

[DaedraPuppet]

Why do we bicker like children, both of you have good points, just believe whatever you want to believe...

[Br3admax]

A Dragon is not all powerful, is what I am saying. Dragons have raw power, but the Daedra have numbers. It's like apples and oranges. But yes, Dragons do belong in the next game, I will never say no to that.

Why do we bicker like children, both of you have good points, just believe whatever you want to believe...

Bickering, we are having an intelligent debate about lore.

[DaedraPuppet]

A Dragon is not all powerful, is what I am saying. Dragons have raw power, but the Daedra have numbers. It's like apples and oranges. But yes, Dragons do belong in the next game, I will never say no to that.

Why do we bicker like children, both of you have good points, just believe whatever you want to believe...

Bickering, we are having an intelligent debate about lore.

All I'm saying is that there is no point to debating about what someone might see as an opinion, (Although I do mainly agree with you breadmax) even if it is fact.

[Da_BossMaN69]

Really, we're two individual's with different view points arguing each other's. It's not like I'm calling him an intolerable SOB or anything like that.

Also yeah I agree with you on that also, Dragons are not the infinitely powerful also, but I just view them as being the greatest of all non-mortal entities, I will agree with you that they are outnumbered, but don't forget numbers don't mean everything. Unless the Daedra are infinite then it's a losing battle, or simply a failed invasion.

Back on topic, If dragons do return, I know it's pretty much expected there'll be like only two or three varieties. Do you think they'll make new ones or keep certain ones.

In Skyrim we have a limited number of Daedra however the ranks/species(?) that are in the game are previously established ones.

Also can we expect dragon raids on towns or will they likely be substituted for what ever supernatural/divine villain/enemy appears in the next game.

[Br3admax]

I think that they will most likely be a one-time boss. A certain creature that is in one specific location, only for one reason. Just fighting Dragons is sort of Skyrim's thing.

[Riothamus]

I think that they will most likely be a one-time boss. A certain creature that is in one specific location, only for one reason. Just fighting Dragons is sort of Skyrim's thing.

+1

There capacity will be limited to only epic encounters.