Haters of the Thalmor.

A place to discuss and ask questions about the fifth part of The Elder Scrolls series and its expansions

What's your oppinion?

I hate the Thalmor.
179
72%
I love the Thalmor.
32
13%
I hate both the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion.
38
15%
 
Total votes: 249

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Re: Haters of the Thalmor.

Post by Haravikk »

I voted to hate both the Thalmor and the Empire, though for balance I should point out that I hate the Stormcloaks, and don't really like any of the guilds either ;)

You're pretty much supposed to hate the Thalmor, especially the ones in Skyrim as they're the worst of the lot and mostly concerned with hunting down those evil Talos worshippers and Blades remnants, while making sure nothing goes the empire's way (since they're supposed to have allowed Ulfric to rise to power in the first place). They're haughty and annoying, but then a lot of high elves are like that too, but the Thalmor are especially bad. Anyone that is rude to me in Skyrim is fair game for a throat slicing, and I've not exactly done much to avoid Thalmor casualties in any of my games.

Even so, the empire is incredibly ineffectual, and they seem to be merrily bowing to the Thalmor's every wish as while some will talk about sympathies for the nords it's not as if any of them are really doing anything about it, or secretly trying undermine the Thalmor or anything. While I kind of sympathise with their position a bit, they don't really do much to earn my loyalty, especially given the events at Helgen and the lack of even a proper apology.

On the other hand though they've made the Stormcloaks just as shady, as for all of his fancy words Ulfric is still happy to massacre and decide that Jarl Balgruuf is the enemy simply because he wants to remain neutral, which doesn't show much true consideration for the traditions of his people considering the holds are supposed to be able to run themselves and choose their High King, not have one chosen for them. Likewise with duelling Torvig, he used shouts instead of fighting on fairer footing (which he might have won anyway).


It does a good job of creating ambiguity that prevents any one side from being the obvious choice, but it would have been nice if there was more to like about either side once the campaign got underway, for example with more examples of the Stormcloaks being merciful (perhaps by player choice) and more friction with the Thalmor from the Imperials. Or even some way to find a true compromise rather than just a temporary peace.
As a result it's hard to like anyone involved in the civil war, so I just focus on mayhem or leave it to sort itself out later :)


Since the thread is heavily about the civil war, and that's what I've mostly talked about above anyone, one thing I really missed seeing was the option for Skyrim as a vassal state of the Empire, as it seems like the best of both, as they can still trade and fight alongside one another just as before, but Skyrim is free to make its own decisions on who they are allowed to worship. I'm hoping something like that is at least going to become the canon action, e.g - "After a bloody civil war Skyrim eventually became an independent nation, while managing to maintain strong ties to the Empire", rather than what I'm expecting to see which is Skyrim separating from the empire regardless of whether the empire won the civil war or not and leaving the empire weak and doomed. I mean it's nice to see a changing political landscape in the series, but I still like the empire, though it'll be fun to find out what happens to the reformed Blades based in Skyrim, since the empire has been forced to abandon them so while maybe not completely welcome the nords can't exactly begrudge their existence all that much either.
But ehm… yeah the lack of a true middle ground means the ambiguity of who's right and who isn't is a bit annoying. Also the lack of option support Skyrim's independence but not Ulfric and that kind of thing. The whole civil war is something that could be greatly expanded upon as it was a bit too simple as it is.
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Re: Haters of the Thalmor.

Post by Vhailor »

I don't hate elves at all, but Thalmor as the organization I do hate. I don't even talk with them, whenever I see them I just draw my sword and charge in and don't stop until no Thalmor are left alive. Even my altmer char hates Thalmor and beats the snot out of them every time.
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Re: Haters of the Thalmor.

Post by MidbossVyers »

Haravikk wrote:I voted to hate both the Thalmor and the Empire, though for balance I should point out that I hate the Stormcloaks, and don't really like any of the guilds either ;)

You're pretty much supposed to hate the Thalmor, especially the ones in Skyrim as they're the worst of the lot and mostly concerned with hunting down those evil Talos worshippers and Blades remnants, while making sure nothing goes the empire's way (since they're supposed to have allowed Ulfric to rise to power in the first place). They're haughty and annoying, but then a lot of high elves are like that too, but the Thalmor are especially bad. Anyone that is rude to me in Skyrim is fair game for a throat slicing, and I've not exactly done much to avoid Thalmor casualties in any of my games.

Even so, the empire is incredibly ineffectual, and they seem to be merrily bowing to the Thalmor's every wish as while some will talk about sympathies for the nords it's not as if any of them are really doing anything about it, or secretly trying undermine the Thalmor or anything. While I kind of sympathise with their position a bit, they don't really do much to earn my loyalty, especially given the events at Helgen and the lack of even a proper apology.

On the other hand though they've made the Stormcloaks just as shady, as for all of his fancy words Ulfric is still happy to massacre and decide that Jarl Balgruuf is the enemy simply because he wants to remain neutral, which doesn't show much true consideration for the traditions of his people considering the holds are supposed to be able to run themselves and choose their High King, not have one chosen for them. Likewise with duelling Torvig, he used shouts instead of fighting on fairer footing (which he might have won anyway).


It does a good job of creating ambiguity that prevents any one side from being the obvious choice, but it would have been nice if there was more to like about either side once the campaign got underway, for example with more examples of the Stormcloaks being merciful (perhaps by player choice) and more friction with the Thalmor from the Imperials. Or even some way to find a true compromise rather than just a temporary peace.
As a result it's hard to like anyone involved in the civil war, so I just focus on mayhem or leave it to sort itself out later :)


Since the thread is heavily about the civil war, and that's what I've mostly talked about above anyone, one thing I really missed seeing was the option for Skyrim as a vassal state of the Empire, as it seems like the best of both, as they can still trade and fight alongside one another just as before, but Skyrim is free to make its own decisions on who they are allowed to worship. I'm hoping something like that is at least going to become the canon action, e.g - "After a bloody civil war Skyrim eventually became an independent nation, while managing to maintain strong ties to the Empire", rather than what I'm expecting to see which is Skyrim separating from the empire regardless of whether the empire won the civil war or not and leaving the empire weak and doomed. I mean it's nice to see a changing political landscape in the series, but I still like the empire, though it'll be fun to find out what happens to the reformed Blades based in Skyrim, since the empire has been forced to abandon them so while maybe not completely welcome the nords can't exactly begrudge their existence all that much either.
But ehm… yeah the lack of a true middle ground means the ambiguity of who's right and who isn't is a bit annoying. Also the lack of option support Skyrim's independence but not Ulfric and that kind of thing. The whole civil war is something that could be greatly expanded upon as it was a bit too simple as it is.
Two things: First of all, according to Ulfric, anyway, he killed Torygg with a sword and only used Shouting to knock Torygg to the ground. According to an Arena/Daggerfall character creation question about magic arrows, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Character_Creation magic is not really a cheat; it is a different skill. Secondly, during the Battle of Solitude, Ulfric did try to show mercy to Rikke. She just didn't accept it. Compare that to the Battle of Windhelm where Tullius makes it clear that he wants to kill both Ulfric and Galmar.
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Re: Haters of the Thalmor.

Post by Haravikk »

MidbossVyers wrote:First of all, according to Ulfric, anyway, he killed Torygg with a sword and only used Shouting to knock Torygg to the ground.
That's still a pretty dishonourable thing to do for a Nord (and I don't trust Ulfric's word anyway), especially when it sounds like Torygg resigned himself to losing the duel anyway. I mean, Torygg didn't have to fight a duel, and yet it sounds like he was going to fight it as honour demanded, but then Ulfric uses a shout to get an easy kill instead of fighting him honourably where he had a chance of winning? Sneaking into Solitude to effectively murder the High King and then run away doesn't exactly stand out as an example of a just war for freedom in the first place.
MidbossVyers wrote:Secondly, during the Battle of Solitude, Ulfric did try to show mercy to Rikke.
It's a bit of a token gesture though when he doesn't give Tulius the option to retreat from Skyrim or surrender. Killing Tulius doesn't even really guarantee Skyrim's independence, in spite of how everyone acts, as it does a better job of ensuring the empire will only want to take it back if they can. Besides which, Ulfric is effectively a Thalmor puppet, and I'm not sure I'd put much stock in his word about the duel anyway, as he is largely motivated by revenge and playing on the sympathies of those nords that feel oppressed by the empire; judging by the state of Windhelm it's not clear that Skyrim would be any better off under Ulfric than the empire.

Tulius is no better, but really all he's doing is his job, he has no particular personal stake in it except that he knows that if either Ulfric or Galmar survive then there'll never be any stability in Skyrim (though it's doubtful that anything the empire does will ever achieve that). Besides which, the Thalmor would only have an excuse to cause more trouble if he is seen showing much in the way of leniency.

What I mean by no middle ground is that there aren't really any Stormcloak sympathisers among the empire, or Stormcloaks who don't hate the empire, they're all just carbon copy goons that hate each other, except for Legate Rikke to some degree. There are no options to win any holds peacefully or with reduced casualties, or by influencing the population. I can understand why Tulius is trying to stamp down the rebellion, as that's what he's been ordered to do, but there's no scope for alternatives, not attempt to undermine Ulfric by finding lieutenants with sympathies for the empire or vice versa.

Even if you ignore the war it's likely that canonically, because of how the events in the game can play out, that Skyrim will either win independence, or be beaten into submission by the empire, regardless of either side winning temporarily. For example if you play an imperial victory then Bethesda may still write in another nord taking up the cause and winning independence, or they may pick to have the empire always win even if Ulfrik temporarily gains control. Either way Skyrim isn't really any better off in practice, as both sides suffer heavy losses, and no matter what you do there's no certainty that the war is over, so the Thalmor win all round.

I dunno what Bethesda still has planned for Skyrim DLC, but personally I'd love one that greatly expands upon the civil war with a ton of proper missions to take holds (preferably making the civil war require more than a day to complete) and more of a resolution against the Thalmor. I think that my favourite thing in Skyrim is beheading Thalmor Justicars, but otherwise there's nothing you can actually do about them. Maybe Bethesda are aiming to set the stage for the next game in which another war with the Thalmor will take the spotlight, but it's kind of disappointing not to have a bit more pay off from the war in Skyrim.
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Re: Haters of the Thalmor.

Post by Br3admax »

1. Learning the Thu'um and using it is the most honorable thing a Nord can do.
2. It was wrong because Torygg respected Ulfric and was only a young man. He was in his early twenties at the latest.
3. This is about the Thalmor not Ulfric. Do not try to make it be about that.
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Re: Haters of the Thalmor.

Post by Sam »

MidbossVyers wrote:Secondly, during the Battle of Solitude, Ulfric did try to show mercy to Rikke. She just didn't accept it. Compare that to the Battle of Windhelm where Tullius makes it clear that he wants to kill both Ulfric and Galmar.
Ulfric also doesnt let Tullius escape. The reason that Ulfric lets Rikke live is because she's a Nord.
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Re: Haters of the Thalmor.

Post by Haravikk »

Br3admax wrote:1. Learning the Thu'um and using it is the most honorable thing a Nord can do.
2. It was wrong because Torygg respected Ulfric and was only a young man. He was in his early twenties at the latest.
Being taught by the Greybeards is the honour, but at the time of Skyrim the only masters of the voice follow the Way of the Voice, Ulfric and the Dovahkiin are seemingly the only exceptions (ignoring draugr), but I doubt the Greybeards are all that happy about how Ulfric uses the voice considering its supposed to used only in times of need; I mean they only begrudgingly help the Dovahkiin. And I doubt any nord warrior in skyrim would be happy at the idea that fighting a duel may see them set on fire or shattered to bits by a shout because your opponent won't fight with a blade; the Nords aren't big fans of magic after all. Fact is that more people see it as a dishonourable act and agree with Elisif's account rather than Ulfric's, the lore article also indicates he went under false pretences and had a decent chance at diplomacy, but instead forced Torygg into a challenge he essentially couldn't refuse then murdered him, no matter how Ulfric tries to spin it, which makes him an ambiguous hero for skyrim at best.
Br3admax wrote:3. This is about the Thalmor not Ulfric. Do not try to make it be about that.
I wasn't trying to, but the Thalmor in Skyrim are heavily wrapped up in the civil war, and especially Ulfric whom they have aided, in secret, in order to keep the civil war going. I could just say I don't like the Thalmor and be done with, but I chose the poll option for not liking the Thalmor or the Empire, and to explain that choice required delving into the civil war since as much as the Thalmor are responsible, the Empire is effectively spineless and not making any effort at all to undermine the Thalmor or realise that the whole civil war is a Thalmor plot, but on balance I don't like the Stormcloaks either thanks to Ulfric's lack of honour despite making himself a figurehead for independence for a people for whom honour is meant to be important :)
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Re: Haters of the Thalmor.

Post by Br3admax »

Ask any Nord, most will say using the Thu'um is good. I can shout anything down, no one will say. "Hey, it's dishonorable to do that." They love the Thu'um, it is as Nord as Atmora and Mead. It is an "ancient Nord art". Did you think they only accepted it because you where Dragonborn? ANY Thu'um Master is respected, and anyone who fights them should be honored.
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Re: Haters of the Thalmor.

Post by snapple »

All of the in game dialogue points to the Nords looking favorably towards the Thu'um.
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Re: Haters of the Thalmor.

Post by Hissien »

How did this become about the Thu'um? :shock:
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Re: Haters of the Thalmor.

Post by Br3admax »

Because my word is law, Hissien. You of all people should know that.

Anyway, Thalmor suck. Let the discussion continue.
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Re: Haters of the Thalmor.

Post by POMC S117 »

Oh, this thread! I remember this!

I don't like the Thalmor as NPCs but I love the faction. I hate what they stand for but I like them as the enemies. They're a farcry away from the helpful or mischievous elves of traditional fantasy.
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Re: Haters of the Thalmor.

Post by Haravikk »

Br3admax wrote:Ask any Nord, most will say using the Thu'um is good
There's a difference between using the Thu'um for good, and using it to pursue your own agenda. The Way of the Voice specifically limits the Thu'um to learning, or for true times of need.
Besides which, if the Thu'um is so widely accepted, then why do all the guards tell you stop using it, and so many people act surprised when they hear it? Why aren't there more Nords learning the voice so they can go around shouting people's underpants off, if using the Thu'um for whatever you please is so widely accepted?

If it's such a respected Nord tradition, then why weren't more Solitude guards supportive of Ulfric's "honourable" victory over Torygg? Instead only Roggvir supported it and got his head chopped off for his trouble, while the majority of people in the city branded him a traitor, and the other members of the court of Solitude didn't look upon Ulfric's actions kindly either with the guards trying to arrest him for it. Sure the view of people in Solitude is bound to be skewed, but many of them are still Nords, and yet this ancient glorious tradition of using the Thu'um to murder people didn't seem to strike a chord with any of them. I know I can't go into Solitude and start shouting people that deserve it to pieces without attracting a bounty, and funnily enough that happens everywhere in Skyrim. The evidence is very much against use of the Thu'um being unreservedly respected; joining the Greybeards, sure, but not abusing it like Ulfric clearly did by even his own account!

Anyway, the whole Ulfric thing is still very important with the Thalmor, as it's clear they tortured, and maybe even broke, Ulfric. Murdering the High King is also a very extreme act, and one that Thalmor likely engineered, since the timing of Ulfric's father's death, the ban of Talos worship and his (double?) incarceration by the Thalmor all point to him being manipulated into doing it. Maybe not that act exactly, but certainly turning the unrest into all out civil war.
POMC S117 wrote:I don't like the Thalmor as NPCs but I love the faction. I hate what they stand for but I like them as the enemies.
Actually I kind of agree with this, I mean I hate the Thalmor but in so far as you're supposed to hate the Thalmor, and likewise doubt the Empire and Stormcloaks. They are an interesting, if underdeveloped, enemy in the game with all their scheming and plotting and outright disdain for anyone but themselves. I wonder if we'll ever see what the Thalmor offices in Solitude were supposed to be for…
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Re: Haters of the Thalmor.

Post by DaedraPuppet »

out of game the Thalmor are supposed to be hated, they were put in place by bethesda so that players would all have a common enemy. And lets face it, they are pretty frikin' hate-able.
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Re: Haters of the Thalmor.

Post by odinlima »

Those of you who hate the Altmers should have a word with Legate Fasendil....
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Re: Haters of the Thalmor.

Post by CreeperX »

^
Yeah. Thalmor isn't a synonym for Altmers. And Fasendil rocks.
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Re: Haters of the Thalmor.

Post by Br3admax »

Nobody has ever brought up the fact that we hate Altmer. Where did that come from?
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Re: Haters of the Thalmor.

Post by DemolisherBPB »

I hate the Thalmor because they say Talos isn't a god, If he isn't a god then why the hell in Oblivion did I have to go to his way shrine to wear that bloody armor, He obviously must be a god to stop me wearing holy armor! And I love running up the Thalmor telling them I worship Talos for a free fight!
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Re: Haters of the Thalmor.

Post by Hissien »

Br3admax wrote:Nobody has ever brought up the fact that we hate Altmer. Where did that come from?
Because people say It all the time.....
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Re: Haters of the Thalmor.

Post by Br3admax »

Actually, no one here has said that. Only derp said that he hated the Altmer, and he said their attitude not the people. We give everyone a chance here. The only stuck-up Altmer are the evil ones, and in the ES they are a minority(besides generic npcs) Sind.(the alchemist), Occato, Kvatch Guard(unimportant), Fighters Guild guy(see last), Mages Guild guy(etc.), Windhelm Altmer, Priest of Arkay in Falkreach. They all seem pretty nice to me.
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Re: Haters of the Thalmor.

Post by TheManiac »

I love how Beth decided to make a civil war in which niether side is really appealing because of their political outlooks.

It's best not to get involved and just massacre all the thalmor patrols you see passing through
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Re: Haters of the Thalmor.

Post by Jet »

I kill any thalmor when I get the chance, even if it gets me a bounty.
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Re: Haters of the Thalmor.

Post by Haravikk »

One other thing I would have liked to see is more friction, or even all out war, between the Thalmor and Greybeards; the last thing they want are more Nords learning shouts, especially since Ulfric has shown he has no qualms about using it. An assault by the Thalmor against the four Greybeards could have been fun to see ;)

It may also have guaranteed no possibility of an Imperial victory since the Greybeards are so well regarded by the Nords, as any attempt by the Empire to stand by the White Gold Concordant would have been viewed with even greater scorn than the ban on Talos worship. Though I suppose the Thalmor benefit more from a prolonged civil war, as Imperial defeat would give the empire a chance to secure its smaller borders; still, you'd think the Thalmor would have some plan in place to deal with the Greybeards…
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Re: Haters of the Thalmor.

Post by Hissien »

The Greybeards are not allowed to fight… So while it would be The epic showdown of history, sadly we must live without :(
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Re: Haters of the Thalmor.

Post by Br3admax »

Who lied and told you the Greybeards can't fight? Try to fight a Greybeard, and you are a dead Elf. ;)

"Shout only in true need." If their lives are in danger, they can fight.
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