Talos - The man not the God

[GoatLiver]

I just wanted to work out/clarify a few things about Talos as a man and the events of his life with some of the lore buffs here. I am really ont I am sure I willly interest in factual/cannon information not speculation and hypothesis. I would like to know this information to clarify/determine lore for a mod I am in the process of making and would appreciate any help offered.

Firstly on the lore page for Tiber Septim there are two stories detailing the events of his life. One is listed as Orthodox and the other as Heresy. One would assume the orthodox version to be the cannon/real version by the very definition of the word "orthodox". Where does the orthodox story come from lore-wise? The other story comes from the book The Arcturian Heresy, I wanted to know more information about this book.

Please excuse my ignorance on the matter, the author appears to be listed as "The Underking, Ysmir Kingmaker" who seems to be one of the characters in the book. Is this the actual author and who/what exactly is the "Underking"? Do the events of this book play out in any ES game? From what I can tell it is linked to the events in the game Daggerfall which I have never played but I hear has several endings all of which are considered to be cannon. I sure this could easily make things confusing.

Secondly what is the purpose of this book (Heresy), as in why is it in the game (Morrowind, Skyrim) and what are the repercussions of the events of that book?

That's all I need for now but I'm sure I will have some follow up questions as things become clearer.

[Br3admax]

Both stories are true.

[GoatLiver]

One story claims he was originally a Nord from Atmora know in life as Talos and later adopting the name of Tiber Septim while he was on the throne. The Heresy claims he was a Breton man from Alcaire in High Rock known as Hjalti Early-Beard again later adopting the name Tiber Septim once in power. There are a few other things as well but starting at the beginning how are both stories true if he was a different person in each one?

[JockoBeans]

The Underking is essentially a powerful lich, much like Mannimarco. There are differing accounts on who was the real Underking. The book states that it was King Wulfharth, but evidence in the games states it was Zurin Arctus, Septim's Imperial Battlemage.

Zurin was one of the antagonists in Daggerfall and he is mentioned has having a conflict with Mannimarco, so they were competitors.

In Oblivion, it was Arctus who sealed the undead Blades within the ruins of Sancre Tor before he disappeared.

Any more info would be here: Zurin Arctus

[Br3admax]

One story claims he was originally a Nord from Atmora know in life as Talos and later adopting the name of Tiber Septim while he was on the throne. The Heresy claims he was a Breton man from Alcaire in High Rock known as Hjalti Early-Beard again later adopting the name Tiber Septim once in power. There are a few other things as well but starting at the beginning how are both stories true if he was a different person in each one?

Both stories are true. He was born in High Rock, gained CHIM, and then made it so he was born in Atmora. That's how they are both true. The Underking, the other Underking(Wulfharth) and Talos all became one god. It happened during the Warp in the West, when Talos used CHIM to make it so he was always a god from death. It is very complicated and I am too tired right now to explain it all.

[GoatLiver]

The Underking is essentially a powerful lich, much like Mannimarco. There are differing accounts on who was the real Underking. The book states that it was King Wulfharth, but evidence in the games states it was Zurin Arctus, Septim's Imperial Battlemage.

Zurin was one of the antagonists in Daggerfall and he is mentioned has having a conflict with Mannimarco, so they were competitors.

In Oblivion, it was Arctus who sealed the undead Blades within the ruins of Sancre Tor before he disappeared.

Any more info would be here: Zurin Arctus

Thanks this looks promising. In the story he (the Underking) is blown to dust several times and in the end re-manifests himself in one way or another. Is he still alive or was he killed? from what I gather his heart was used to create the Mantella (which I assume is a integral part of Daggerfall?) and on that same page it says he reclaimed his heart "giving him the death he had sought for so long". Yet at the end of the Heresy it says he is still alive "Then an advisor shows up. "I was friends with your grandfather," the Underking says, "He sent me to help you run the Empire.""

Both stories are true. He was born in High Rock, gained CHIM, and then made it so he was born in Atmora. That's how they are both true. The Underking, the other Underking(Wulfharth) and Talos all became one god. It happened during the Warp in the West, when Talos used CHIM to make it so he was always a god from death. It is very complicated and I am too tired right now to explain it all.

Sounds pretty complex/in depth. Can you (or anyone that knows) point me in the direction to find information on this? Also if anyone could properly explain how CHIM works that would help too. As far as I know its the act of becoming a God but I don't know much about how it works ect. Also you mentioned a second Underking, is this Zurin Arctus or someone else and how is he involved?

[Pilaf The Defiler]

TALOS the Divine is believed by many to be an amalgam of several different mortal men. Its entirely possible for more than one of his origin stories to be correct if we assume these men shared a common oversoul.

[GoatLiver]

TALOS the Divine is believed by many to be an amalgam of several different mortal men. Its entirely possible for more than one of his origin stories to be correct if we assume these men shared a common oversoul.

Where do you get this info from? Is it revealed in the Daggerfall game, or does it come from in game books? Everything I have found on the UESP about Talos says he was Tiber-Septim, who was one of two people, not several people.

[Br3admax]

GL, never, ever, use in-game lore, which is what UESP, as the only basis of what happens in the Elder Scrolls. If you ever want to learn the truth, go to the Imperial Library. You will lose yourself, and a good deal of your time, trying to sift through all the things behind the scenes.

[GoatLiver]

I'll definitely check out the imperial library website, are there any particular events I should be searching for? Just want to know though how something that doesn't have an in game source or verification can be considered cannon lore?

[Br3admax]

Most of it comes from Lore writers and former Lore writers. It is legit.

[Minor Edits]

TIL is fun, but it's not "legit". Most OOG content is OOG for a reason. You have to keep in mind that it can mislead just as much as it can illuminate.

Based on in-game lore, both stories might be true, just as one or the other might be false. That's the only thing that can be said with certainty.

[SajuukKhar]

I would say that even without The Imperial Library's documents, there is more evidence to support the Heresy then the orthodox.

[SmallFries]

I would say that even without The Imperial Library's documents, there is more evidence to support the Heresy then the orthodox.

I would agree with this.
The Ghost of old Hroldan http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Ghost_of_Old_Hroldan
would appear to confirm that the Heresy is true, based simply on the fact that he calls you "Hjalti" mistaking you for Tiber Septim. Then again if you are an advatar of Lorhkan, then there is no mistake.

I doesn't mean that the Orthodox version is wrong either. Similar to "Vivec the god did not murder the hortator, but Vivec the mortal did."

[Minor Edits]

Indeed, there's much more circumstantial support for the heresy. I didn't mean to imply that they were equally likely theories.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Actually, the only thing the Skyrim evidence supports is that there was a man named Hjalti who slept in Old Hroldan once and was in Tiber Septim's army. While I'm sure the devs meant for us to put two and two together, it still doesn't mean there wasn't also a Talos Stormcrown.

[Right-Hand-Of-Sithis]

Actually, the only thing the Skyrim evidence supports is that there was a man named Hjalti who slept in Old Hroldan once and was in Tiber Septim's army. While I'm sure the devs meant for us to put two and two together, it still doesn't mean there wasn't also a Talos Stormcrown.

Hjalti Early-Bird perhaps.

Ie, Talos himself.

[Br3admax]

TIL is fun, but it's not "legit". Most OOG content is OOG for a reason. You have to keep in mind that it can mislead just as much as it can illuminate.

Based on in-game lore, both stories might be true, just as one or the other might be false. That's the only thing that can be said with certainty.

Come on, ME, even you don't believe in a "legit" ES lore. That's funny, legit and Elder Scrolls used in the same sentence. It's out of game because it is really confusing, not because it is not lore worthy.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Actually, the only thing the Skyrim evidence supports is that there was a man named Hjalti who slept in Old Hroldan once and was in Tiber Septim's army. While I'm sure the devs meant for us to put two and two together, it still doesn't mean there wasn't also a Talos Stormcrown.

Hjalti Early-Bird perhaps.

Ie, Talos himself.

That's exactly what I was getting at. Bethesda obviously intended the fans who read The Arcturian Heresy to make that connection.

BUT

Talos is supposed to be Atmoran.

Hjalti is a Breton, or a Nord or Cyrodill who lived in Alcaire. If he actually existed, which the Skyrim quest suggests he did. It could be another Hjalti.

Either of these men could have later become Tiber Septim. Or both. Or neither.

There are many gaps and unanswered questions there.

Don't take either version of Tiber's past at face value. Both promote a specific agenda. It's entirely possible he was neither Talos nor Hjalti but some third party. Maybe Wulfharth himself, or Arctus, or even Emperor Zero survived his assassination and changed his appearance to resemble Talos.

That's speculation on my part but it has roughly the same amount of proof as Hjalti being Septim, which is hearsay. Nothing concrete. That entire Hroldan quest could have been purposely misleading. Suppose the two men simply shared a room? Perhaps they had a homosexual affair. Stranger things happen all the time in this lore.

[Minor Edits]

TIL is fun, but it's not "legit". Most OOG content is OOG for a reason. You have to keep in mind that it can mislead just as much as it can illuminate.

Based on in-game lore, both stories might be true, just as one or the other might be false. That's the only thing that can be said with certainty.

Come on, ME, even you don't believe in a "legit" ES lore. That's funny, legit and Elder Scrolls used in the same sentence. It's out of game because it is really confusing, not because it is not lore worthy.

I believe in varying levels of credibility, and OOG works are categorically much, much less credible than in-game works. I think there's a substantial amount of people out there who would only like to concern themselves with information derived from TES games, books, and other media which have been officially approved by Bethesda. I like TIL and I consult it regularly, but a great amount of their content doesn't meet this threshold.

[GoatLiver]

I believe in varying levels of credibility, and OOG works are categorically much, much less credible than in-game works. I think there's a substantial amount of people out there who would only like to concern themselves with information derived from TES games, books, and other media which have been officially approved by Bethesda. I like TIL and I consult it regularly, but a great amount of their content doesn't meet this threshold.

Yeah I agree with this, if I where to see something in game that was contradictory to something that has an out of game source I would basically completely disregard the material that was not in game.

Some of you where saying you think the heresy is the "more truthful" version, what effect, if any, does that have in game? I guess I am talking more in a sense of a Talos worshipper/cult?

[Hissien]

If we are going to turn this into an IL vs. In-Game rant thread then lets remember there is a reason that the "lore" did not make it into the game, and not all of it is simply because it is too complex.

I imagine both are true in their own way, since Talos is made up of several souls. And because Talos is awesome and can do this kind of thing.

[Br3admax]

No, it's not like that. I know when to yield. It was more about how he wanted to learn more about Talos, and that is the best place to start.

[GoatLiver]

I imagine both are true in their own way, since Talos is made up of several souls. And because Talos is awesome and can do this kind of thing.

So several people have said that Talos is made up of several souls, why do you think this is the case? What was it that made you come to this conclusion. I have not found anything that mentions it was more than one person be it either Talos of Atmora or Hjalti Early-Beard that became Tiber Septim and Talos the God.

The Underking, the other Underking(Wulfharth) and Talos all became one god. It happened during the Warp in the West

Is this in any books or is it in the story in the daggerfall game? I just want to verify my information to help establish lore for a mod so it would help to know where you get your info on this from. I did look through some stuff on the imperial library and some was helpful some not so much. Overall the site seems a little hard to navigate and I'm not sure I am finding all the info they have there.

[Hissien]

Because Talos could use the Numidium with the underking's soul in it because of their shared soul.