Ulfric's Racism?

MidbossVyers · Post by **MidbossVyers** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:51 am

OK, first of all, please understand that this is about Ulfric only, not Rolff or anything other Nord. One of the reasons people don't like the Stormcloaks is because they say Ulfric is racist. I don't have the game yet, but the worst that I've seen of Ulfric himself is that he is grotesquely negligent, but he hasn't done anything actively racist. Sure, the Dunmer live in the Gray Quarter of Windhelm, but are there really any other vacant buildings in the city (that aren't murder houses; Blood on the Ice)? Khajiit merchants and Argonian dock workers aren't allowed in the city proper, but are there that many of them in the other cities (might be a developer error, but anyway)? From what I understand, even Brunwulf doesn't allow Argonians in for their own safety. The only ruthless race-related action that Ulfric did was the Markarth Incident with the Bretons (therefore, my Breton character joined the Legion), but that was more whether or not they aligned themselves with Ulfric (who at the time was fighting for the Empire) or not rather than their race directly.

Hissien · Post by **Hissien** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:01 am

Well i do think he is racist, but as opposed to others i think it is justified in a way. Nords have fought elves for as long as they have been in skyrim. It is how they are. The elves have waged many wars and Ulfriic personally suffered under their hand.

The argonian thing: Whether or not other jarls allow them in the city matters little because this is only about Ulfriic as you yourself said. Ulfriic killed many bretons and from the account it was indiscriminately.

Br3admax · Post by **Br3admax** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:04 am

While I think that it is an interesting topic, I really don't want to get into another debate about if Ulfric is racists or not. Check around the forums and you will see tons of threads about it. I really want to discuss this, but there are a lot of threads about this, and they aren't really about the Stormcloaks as a whole, it soon becomes all about Ulfric, so I don't know if we need this thread.

Hissien · Post by **Hissien** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:05 am

The mods could always merge it to them.....

MidbossVyers · Post by **MidbossVyers** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:08 am

I did say that the Markarth Incident was one atrocity that Ulfric committed (therefore, affecting my Breton character's alignment choice), but even http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Bear_of_Markarth , which criticizes Ulfric, says that those actions were based on alignment or lack thereof rather than race as even Nords were killed.

Hissien · Post by **Hissien** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:10 am

Ummm.... so basically if you werent a soldier you were killed? Youre right, thats much better

.

MidbossVyers · Post by **MidbossVyers** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:15 am

The topic is about his racism not his other personality traits, and the Empire was about to do the same thing to you at the beginning of the game (also, executing a thief just for stealing a horse... really? it's a crime, but he doesn't deserve to die for it).

Hissien · Post by **Hissien** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:18 am

This is about ulfriic not the empire.

But seriously im done im not investing my time in a debate that will go nowhere. Au revoir my friend.

Br3admax · Post by **Br3admax** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:27 am

MidbossVyers wrote:I did say that the Markarth Incident was one atrocity that Ulfric committed (therefore, affecting my Breton character's alignment choice), but even http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Bear_of_Markarth , which criticizes Ulfric, says that those actions were based on alignment or lack thereof rather than race as even Nords were killed.

One that's a piece Forsworn propaganda, that's like saying Nords Arise! is also proof of why you should join the Stormcloaks

Two the only people the Forsworn have said doing things outside of war is the Jarl, and that has not changed.

Duderino Abides · Post by **Duderino Abides** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:33 am

Don't know if he's a racist, but he's certainly a cold-blooded [&@%!] in it for himself.

GoatLiver · Post by **GoatLiver** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:36 am

I understand it that "the Bear of Markarth", a forgery as it is, describes an attitude of anyone that didn't fight the forsworn were considered enemies and were killed. This is similar to an "if you are not with us you are against us" mentality that Ulfric rightfully displays in the game its-self. Markarth was captured by the forsworn and its not entirely out of order to expect that the Nords who lived there before it was captured and who remained there after would fight for its liberation when Ulfric turned up. There may have been no other way to tell if they were forsworn or not. Anyway there is enough evidence to dis-prove the events of that book as nothing more than the bias forsworn sympathising rubbish it is.

MidbossVyers wrote:...I don't have the game yet...therefore, my Breton character joined the Legion...

...

So do you actually have the game or not?

As for what you are saying about Ulfric, I don't really see any racism in him. In Windhelm you'll find more Elves than in any other city, yes they live in a slum but at least they have a home. Many Argonians also live and work the docks. No city in Skyrim allows cats in. He just wants the Nords to rule themselves and he refuses to bow to the wishes of the Thalmor. He stands up for his beliefs and his people which is why he is the best Yarl, the truest Nord and the rightful high king.

Br3admax · Post by **Br3admax** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:37 am

I honestly don't care anymore, but saying he killed some Forsworn when most Bretons hate the Forsworn and you have killed far more seems like a mte point. Ulfric being stupid =/= racism. And Ulfric does not hate Bretons, in fact he actually called on High Rock, whom ignored him, for help with the Empire. I'm all for killing Stormcloaks or Imperials, but you have to back it up with more evidence than the most popular books in the Forsworn camps.

Duderino Abides · Post by **Duderino Abides** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:40 am

The Bear of Markarth was written by an Imperial... it's not like it was written by Madanach. I suppose the guy working the mines whose daughter was butchered for no reason was lying?

Br3admax · Post by **Br3admax** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:43 am

Duderino Abides wrote:The Bear of Markarth was written by an Imperial... it's not like it was written by Madanach. I suppose the guy working the mines whose daughter was butchered for no reason was lying?

1. A sympathizer is a sympathizer, race doesn't matter. And the closest thing to a Breton is an Imperial.

2.That guy said the Jarl did that, not Ulfric. The Jarl cut off his daughter's head for defending him.

Mefris Elmek · Post by **Mefris Elmek** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:50 am

^And he also mentions that his daughter wasn't the only victim in this genocide.

Eltee · Post by **Eltee** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:57 am

When Ulfric started a rebel state, he took upon himself the responsibility of protecting it's inhabitants. He's wilfully ignored the needs of non-Nords within his borders. He does less than nothing to fight racism and hate crimes, and even his top lieutenant is a bloodthirsty hatemonger. Multiple sources have him being the orchestrator of a genocide, and not one offers another possible chain of events.

Ulfric is a racist, yes.

Br3admax · Post by **Br3admax** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:03 am

Eltee wrote:When Ulfric started a rebel state, he took upon himself the responsibility of protecting it's inhabitants. He's wilfully ignored the needs of non-Nords within his borders. He does less than nothing to fight racism and hate crimes, and even his top lieutenant is a bloodthirsty hatemonger. Multiple sources have him being the orchestrator of a genocide, and not one offers another possible chain of events.

Ulfric is a racist, yes.

I really don't think Ulfric is racists, I think he is a narcissistic speech-maker, with a lot of appeal. And lets be honest, very few Elder Scrolls characters are non-racists.

Eltee · Post by **Eltee** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:08 am

Speeches don't butcher civilians, excecute teenage girls or turn their heads as Elves die.

Come on now. Everyone's racist? That's like comparing some old man who blames a nation's problems on immigrants to Ratko Mladić.

Mefris Elmek · Post by **Mefris Elmek** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:11 am

Speeches don't butcher civilians, excecute teenage girls or turn their heads as Elves die.

I agree,Igmnuds guards have the monopoly on that market.

Edit:

When Ulfric started a rebel state, he took upon himself the responsibility of protecting it's inhabitants.

Like Mede when he seized control of the IC.

He's wilfully ignored the needs of non-Nords within his borders.

Like Mede did with the Dunmer?

He does less than nothing to fight racism and hate crimes, and even his top lieutenant is a bloodthirsty hatemonger.

I guess it's better to have blood thirsty criminals masquerading as secret service agents.

Multiple sources have him being the orchestrator of a genocide, and not one offers another possible chain of events.

Has this IL/SC debate degenerated so far that you can disregard an eye witness so easily?

Eltee · Post by **Eltee** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:19 am

You mean those guards that have been bought off by Thonar Silver-Blood?

Dohva. · Post by **Dohva.** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:22 am

I hope he burns in Oblivion. Stupid Ulfric.

Mefris Elmek · Post by **Mefris Elmek** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:25 am

Eltee wrote:You mean those guards that have been bought off by Thonar Silver-Blood?

Read my edit.I was talking about the guards that killed everyone that was affiliated with the forsworn not the ones that are in the SB pocket.

Br3admax · Post by **Br3admax** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:25 am

Eltee wrote:Speeches don't butcher civilians, excecute teenage girls or turn their heads as Elves die.

Come on now. Everyone's racist? That's like comparing some old man who blames a nation's problems on immigrants to Ratko Mladić.

Uh, I already said the Jarl did those things, Ulfric had no part of it. And I dare anyone to name 20 completely racially unbiased main npcs. I've only met a about eight. And Ulfric is full of himself, and his race, I know. But that is no reason to blame him for others' crimes.

Dohvakiin2012 wrote:I hope he burns in Oblivion. Stupid Ulfric.

I think he found his honorable death and passage to Sovngarde quite great, no matter what, Ulfric gets his way.

Eltee · Post by **Eltee** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:30 am

Find 20 people in Skyrim who don't say 'damn elves' on occasion? Tough.

Find me 20 more people in Skyrim who have led genocides.

This isn't black and white.

Mefris Elmek · Post by **Mefris Elmek** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:39 am

Skyrim is the most awful place in the Empire.After all,you'll only find racism in Skyrim [/sarcasm]

Find me 20 more people in Skyrim who have led genocides.

Generic Thalmor Justiciar 1-100,Igmund,Madonach...take your pick.

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