Dumbing games down

[Br3admax]

Every time you say I don't want to be an alteration mage, you support magic that would now be alteration skills. Mysticism is no longer a skill, and is more or less, Alteration. Playing a mage, alteration is almost always a must.

[Hissien]

There is no reason to say that in the next game mysticism will not return, especially if it takes place in the isles, in which the "old way" is a form of mysticism. Im not really sure what your point is anymore... Magic should go away? I mean what do you really want? All you said is that i am incorrect in saying i dont want to be an alteration mage, maybe i am. But just because it isnt my main magic skill doesnt mean i dont use it at all. The main point here is that the games are being "dumbed down" ( i think simplified is the best way to put it, not in a good way either.").

[Br3admax]

Most of those spells are now obsolete, they have no purpose. While it would be cool to mess with doors and trigger traps, that has fallen down to lock-picking. I'm not saying magic should go away, but just because a few spells leave that you like, does not mean that the games are being simplified. It is quite arguable that the magic you like is not what warriors, the advertise player, plays so it was never even shown to be there. You may not like perks, but they are here to stay. And if Mysticism did come back, they would have to bring back a lot of useless and way pointless skills that would probably let you exploit the landscape, it just won't happen.

[Hissien]

Okay, i forgot you work at bethesda and would totally know what the next game entails...... (just kidding my friend)

"Pointless" is a tricky word, since i almost never make warriors i would find any loss of magic catastrophic. But thats just me. And i want to make one thing clear, TES isnt just for warriors and not everything is built around the advertise player. Most of the people i have seen make spellswords at least once. And since there is an entire thread about the game being dumbed down i dont think i am the only one who thinks magic has been shrinking. Also magic is only one example of the games being simplified, i only mention it because it is truly personal to me. And it isnt a few, dont act like it is only a few different effects, they also removed multiple effect spells.Like there is no fire+ice spells or some other combination. The could have implemented this with dual casting, they just didnt.

Useless and way pointless skills? Melee skills could be pointless to me because i dont use them but i would never call them pointless because some players like them and i know the game isnt just about what i like. The option to use these various effects is always nice to have even if you never use them. So please dont call it pointless because mysticism was not always useless like it is now. In morrowind and previous games its spells actually mattered.

[Huntershound]

Okay, i forgot you work at bethesda and would totally know what the next game entails...... (just kidding my friend)

"Pointless" is a tricky word, since i almost never make warriors i would find any loss of magic catastrophic. But thats just me. And i want to make one thing clear, TES isnt just for warriors and not everything is built around the advertise player. Most of the people i have seen make spellswords at least once. And since there is an entire thread about the game being dumbed down i dont think i am the only one who thinks magic has been shrinking. Also magic is only one example of the games being simplified, i only mention it because it is truly personal to me. And it isnt a few, dont act like it is only a few different effects, they also removed multiple effect spells.Like there is no fire+ice spells or some other combination. The could have implemented this with dual casting, they just didnt.

Useless and way pointless skills? Melee skills could be pointless to me because i dont use them but i would never call them pointless because some players like them and i know the game isnt just about what i like. The option to use these various effects is always nice to have even if you never use them. So please dont call it pointless because mysticism was not always useless like it is now. In morrowind and previous games its spells actually mattered.

This made me laugh and die a little inside. My werewolves of bloodmoon always heavily used mysticism and I remember being very annoyed when I found out the school was gone.

[OblivionDuruza]

Even though, from a gameplay perspective, Mysticism's removal was counterbalanced with changes to the other Schools, form a Lore perspective it's a little disappointing not to see some kind of Lore explanation for the Schools' removal, similar to the debates we saw in books about the removal or proposed removal of other schools in previous games. Mysticism, apart from being a school fundamental to the Psijic Order, was fantastic in Morrowind whilst ensuring that Alteration wasn't too multi-purpose and also allowing Alteration to have other spell effects like Lock and Unlock. That being said, it was really Oblivion and not Skyrim which killed Mysticism. With the reduction to the effects the skill encompassed in Oblivion, it's probably the case that not many people were getting excited about it, so Bethesda saw no reason to keep it, allowing them to balance a system with fewer skills, due to the removal of other skills for reasons with arguably greater validity.

I'd just like to say, what some would call "dumbing down" others might call 'making more accessible.' The more buyers Bethesda attracts to the series, the larger their production budgets will become and the greater the priority placed on the franchise ...

This is the unfortunate truth, really. And it's not just with Bethesda. Lots of other companies are doing it too, which makes me sad

don't be sad, it's human culture - you forget (or possibly werent aware) that people who played morrowind 10 years ago were playing a game some thought was 'just' a dumbed down computer versions of 'real' role playing games

after a while you just have to stop hanging on to the 'golden age of gaming' ideal, and enjoy the good points of what people have to offer now

This. Everything I've seen of the development of Oblivion and Skyrim has shown that Bethesda listen to their fans. All the major 'problems' of Oblivion were the result of changes Bethesda made due to fan criticisms about Morrowind (Fast Travel, Map Markers, the Levelled world, etc.), in my opinion anyway, and after people responded to these changes post-Oblivion, Bethesda was able to revert back to a happy medium between Morrowind and Oblivion in these regards with Skyrim. The further the series goes, the further this refinement process will be able to go as well. Bethesda added a fair amount to Skyrim, in spite of the amount they took away, and for each addition and subtraction, I'm sure they had one reason or another - which probably came from us anyway.

[Yaije]

Most of those spells are now obsolete, they have no purpose. While it would be cool to mess with doors and trigger traps, that has fallen down to lock-picking. I'm not saying magic should go away, but just because a few spells leave that you like, does not mean that the games are being simplified. It is quite arguable that the magic you like is not what warriors, the advertise player, plays so it was never even shown to be there. You may not like perks, but they are here to stay. And if Mysticism did come back, they would have to bring back a lot of useless and way pointless skills that would probably let you exploit the landscape, it just won't happen.

The disappearance of so many uses of said spells really doesn't help the "not simplified" statement.

also... if anything lock picking was the skill rendered useless by magic, not the other way around.

Spoiler:

think about it, guranteed chance of opening vs % chance, and fool proof way of safely disabling traps outside area of effect, don't forget no need to carry tools vs need for special tools and that those tools eventually break.

now we HAVE to use conjuration or destruction to reliably fight

Spoiler:

illusion works only if you take specific perks and won't work on everything

And the wonky effects you could manipulate with enchanted weapons or spells was hilarious

Spoiler:

think on levitate a bit and not for it's uses in exploiting terrain but the speed modifier based in it's magnitude

edit:

mysticism only ever had a few spells that actually mattered. soul trap, detects, and the spell resist/reflect/absorb.

I think it had the leeching styled spells at one point but I don't quite remember if that was actually restoration. Though I will admit that magic ruled pretty hard in Morrowind for those that took it up. It overshadowed every other style if you were a min/max'er, but it was a single player game anyways so that shouldn't matter all that much.

[Br3admax]

Oh, no, don't get me wrong, magic needs a sledge hammer taken to it big time, I love, if I didn't I would be playing something else. Mysticism was my favorite tree, by the way. But armor increase, is still Alteration, detect life, that was a mistake that Bethesda obviously made. Seeing the unseen, absorbing Magicka, and even Night Eye, these types of spells would be perfect for Mysticism. I do not see how , seeing alive and dead people is an illusion. I do not see how seeing a path is Illusion. Trust me, my friends, when I say that magic got slapped in the face this go round I mean it, but do we really need to fly?

[Hissien]

If you want to join house telvanni you do

Also that wasnt the only effect that was removed and it wasnt just pointless ones that were removed either. I dont even understand how this is a debate anymore since the removal of spell effects alone would mean the game was simplified.

I also dont understand your disdain for levitation, if nothing else i used it because i was afraid i would fall off of a narrow path and die. The fact that it is established in lore is another reason it is sad to see it go

[Br3admax]

A lot of Skyrim had to deal with climbing Mountains and overcoming trials of height. They would limit the designs of the game, and I could see Paarthurnax without even doing the Main Quest. And while effect were removed, others were added. It could be even more complicated than before.

[Hissien]

Not many effects were added, different ways to use said effects? sure but after awhile magic just feels bland and tasteless.

Id also like to add that rune spells were a very good idea on bethesda's part as well as the cloak spell. Honestly if they had never removed unlock spells i would never have even paid attention to the loss of spell effects well.. MAYBE the elemental shields

[Br3admax]

Effects and magic are not the only thing that complicates a game, you know. And magic can be quiet fun if you don't only use magic. And the fact is, although there should be options for pure mages like you, a lot of people are happy with fireball or even fire breath, they have to appeal to the most people to make money. As long as the majority of the fanbase is happy, little will change in the gaming industry.

[Hissien]

But giving me more options doesnt harm that fan base, the only spell effects i truly miss are the more practical ones and the ones that are more mundane. Mark and recall when a legendary dragon swoops on a lower level character. The unlock spells just hit home because i used them all the time, even when i had skeleton key because i like to RP. Cure disease was perfectly useful as were the "absorb X" spells. I dont see how adding more spell effects to the game hurts the fan base when i have seen a lot of criticism about it.

[Br3admax]

First:

Effects and magic are not the only thing that complicates a game, you know. And magic can be quiet fun if you don't only use magic. And the fact is, although there should be options for pure mages like you, a lot of people are happy with fireball or even fire breath, they have to appeal to the most people to make money. As long as the majority of the fanbase is happy, little will change in the gaming industry.

I agree.

Second:

But giving me more options doesnt harm that fan base, the only spell effects i truly miss are the more practical ones and the ones that are more mundane. Mark and recall when a legendary dragon swoops on a lower level character. The unlock spells just hit home because i used them all the time, even when i had skeleton key because i like to RP. Cure disease was perfectly useful as were the "absorb X" spells. I dont see how adding more spell effects to the game hurts the fan base when i have seen a lot of criticism about it.

You see what you did there, don't you?

[Hissien]

They can appear at anytime at level 30+ right? Or is it 50? Regardless thats what i consider "lower" because that is how most gamers seem to think. That really wasnt the point and atleast you understood what i meant. I mean we arent all prepared for that dragon that decides it wants to land right in front of you, it would be nice to have an escape ready.

[Br3admax]

I think it's level 71-81, and that's with Dawnguard. Maybe you meant Elder Dragon? And recall was really more of a fast travel thing, but with more purpose.

[Hissien]

.... Thats right it was an Ancient dragon, it destroyed my paladin and an entire forsworn encampment. I know recall was basically fast travel, but you cant fast travel inside of cells nor when in danger, recall could do both of these which is why when you are over-encumbered you could just *Poof* yourself away from danger and save all the wonderful loot you found! Thats what i mean, it was perfectly practical and it would not be but so hard to code or at least no more difficult than opening a door or fast traveling. Hmmm...... anything else besides magic?

The other major dumbing down that bethesda did was guild's and to be honest pretty much ALL of the radiant quests. Fetch and kill which are the main fodder of Skyrim's quests. There are not many "escort" quests and the guilds are way too short. But still worth playing. I love skyrim. The fact that i get so fired up about it just means i love it more. My main issues are not so much with skyrim but with the series as a whole. Skyrim is just a good example because it is most likely the most similar to the next game.

Please note before you quote and bold my post i did read your entire prior post, i just restated what you said

[Br3admax]

Oblivion was the same, even Morrowind was the same, those were just deep fetch quest. And yes removal of Guild rank was stupid, that is a great point, but then again, we know how this is going to end. Me in the head honcho chair, sipping on some mead/colovian brandy, while women fawn over me. That's how the ES works, Bethesda just got lazy this time. They listened to the complaining minority, and removed a lengthy, comlpex, guild questline, now that was bad. But the fetch this thing, or kill this, has always been standard.

[Hissien]

Its the journey in between point A and B i missed the most, the guild quests in skyrim in and of themselves are wonderful. But there's no build up, no story. It is basically train with our members, fetch something important to us, talk to the leader, do three more quests and you become the leader. I worded my last response poorly, also the pop-up quest entry is missed by me as well. (once again restated the post)

I dont mind that we become the leader, but the loss of that journey and that need to be a part of that guild because they had something that you needed most is truly a loss i regret.

Plus the quest entries were extremely good in oblivion and i enjoyed reading them.

[Br3admax]

We write journal entires, it's just that you have to check your journal every time because they often disappear. I guess they are over written in Skyrim, probably after I've enjoyed my daily dose of, "It's a fine day, with you around." or "May the gods watch over your battles friend." , or even (insert obvious hit on you dialogue here), not that is what I called "Dumbing Down". "Why of course we are very, very, close friends, you chopped wood for me."

[Huntershound]

I think that both of you have hit the nail on the head from different directions. However I believe removing the complexity because they listened to a certain group or they were just lazy is unacceptable.