Dumbing games down

[Memai]

If I may throw my two cents in here for a minute? > w>;;

I read/watched a pretty interesting video from egoraptor on YouTube called 'Sequelitis-- basically, talking about old games and flaws in their sequels/newer games as well as their strengths. One of the things that struck out to me was him mentioning this: The reason why older games were 'harder' and why newer games seemed dumbed down is actually pretty technical. Once he explained it, it made more sense.

1) Back then in the early gaming days of lore, whatever machine you used to game had its limitations. And I don't mean just graphically, either. I'm talking space, memory, power, all that good stuff that goes into a machine. You couldn't put, say, the entirety of Skyrim's content and world maps and quests and spawning NPCs into the same physical package like Morrowind's, or even the older games. The devs had to keep the game as interesting and CHALLENGING as possible to the player while still keeping in mind all these machines need to run. It's probably the reason why the older games have all this so-called 'depth'-- the devs needed to make the world as big and interesting as it should be, while still allowing customers/players to run their product on a computer/console.

Back then, the question was: "How could we keep players occupied and playing our games LONGER and talking about it longer and staying interested while only having XYZ spec requirements?"

Today, it's more towards: "How much stuff can we put in the stuff, so the stuff can be bought from the other stuff so the next stuff will work? Stuff Stuff Stuff" With more advanced computers running in our consoles/PCs, space isn't an issue anymore, and every other company seems to come out with the next "biggest game ever" or "prettiest game ever". It's a competition to see who's got the biggest and bestest and most visually pleasing schlong, honestly. Crude analogy, but one that works well ;>

2) Games only very recently started becoming mainstream. Back when, video games were a very, very niche market, especially for lore-heavy RPGs like The Elder Scrolls. The difficulty and challenges present in the older games were what gamers back then expected out of their product. Attacks based on chance? Not a problem? Cluttered menus and heavy exposition on lore? A genre's darling. Nowadays, games a lot more mainstream-- more people own consoles now and more and more players are buying video games and supporting them. It's also no secret that video games these days, with it's new, vast, open market, is a cash cow. Selling a game like Morrowind to today's gamers (I mean, the really lax gamers, not just the CoD or Halo folks) would be a challenge ;>

3) Audience ;> Fans of the older games are always going to be disappointed with newer installations as they come out. The little Rubik's cube of genius storytelling and gameplay is now replaced by a straight, linear "Choose your own adventure" type of game. I admit, it's a completely different playstyle, between TES3 and TES5, but ask someone who played the older games first and the newer ones first and well... you got this thread XD I admit, I've only started playing the newer games and moved backwards from there the more I got interested with the lore :> A lot of players who like that sort of immersion into the world/story would most likely get their hands on the series to learn more about a game or experience nasty Cliffracers for themselves. On the other hand, players who like the hack n' slash gameplay of the newer titles are going to complain about how 'hard' or 'boring' the older games are. Likewise with the TES veterans who miss the gameplay they're more familiar with.

Maybe games are getting dumber, or maybe we're just getting smarter? ;> Remember, the industry is always trying to figure itself out, technology is moving at break-neck speed and with players becoming more vocal/demanding/smarter/more informed, companies have to figure out what the people want and constantly fix their products to match their customers' expectations. Sure, Skyrim or even Oblivion could do more in the way of more challenging gameplay, make the dungeons less linear and make the journey more perilous, but they're also good games in their own right; as is Morrowind and Daggerfall ;>

Woo.

[Wolfie]

Let me put it this way, many pepole say morrowind is the "end all be all" and that the others are dumbed down

Daggerfall puts morrowind to shame, morrowind dumbed down in so many ways.

[Br3admax]

Did we really need finishing moves though?

Spoiler:

I'll be honest, finishing moves made me stop playing Oblivion. Well, that and the extremely more realistic combat.

[Memai]

Bread >> I liked the finishing moves, if only because it was So Bad It's Good ;D

Wolfie >> And Daggerfall would be 'dumbed down' in comparison to Arena ;> I don't play games to feel 'smart' or 'entitled', and I'm sure a lot of other folks feel the same way :> If you enjoy these 'smarter' games, by all means :> If sales and reception for the TES games (Morrowind and -up-) are anything to go by, I'd say Bethesda's doing -something- right :>

Also, like I said in my previous posts, there are reasons why the older games were made more 'difficult'. It's easy to sink time into Skyrim and Oblivion because there was just SO much stuff-- stuff to see, stuff to do, stuff to get, stuff to talk to. Morrowind (and earlier-- anyone remember Daggerfall's dungeon and the left-hand aid? ;D) were focused more on getting as much game-time without piling on the content. They made the challenges difficult so we spent just as many hours in the older games as we would in the newer ones.

I wouldn't call it 'dumbing games down', more that gamers have their priorities shifted on other aspects of gaming, and companies-- Bethesda included-- are trying to find out what works and what doesn't :> More so now that games have become more popular and more mainstream.

[Wolfie]

I know, I was agrring with you, your point is the one i made countless times on the forums

another one of mine is this, more detail, back in the day you did not have as much detial on each thing, the more detial you have, the less things you will have unl,es you exspaned the time, which they did not do.

[Memai]

Ahahaha poor choice of words on my part, mate ;> I was agreeing with you on the first part, then started rambling off afterwards XD But yes, I completely agree with you :> I mean, man, I remember playing games in the late 90's and the early 2000's. One of my favorite games of all time (Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, for the curious) was an early game as well, and I enjoyed Daggerfall (though I probably won't be exploring caves for a LOOOOOONG time).

Though if I had a choice, I'd play the older games if I really felt up to it. Skyrim and Oblivion are easy flights of fancy for me ;>

[Hissien]

To be fair i am finding morrowind to have all the depth it was hyped up to have.

I would have to say that the games are being dumbed down in a few ways that are not tedious in any way.... One thing is the loss of many magical effects that previous games had. Im guessing arena and daggerfall had crazy different types of spells but in morrowind alone i have seen so many more spells than oblivion and skyrim(having so few effects it is ridiculous) that it seems like that magic is slowly being weeded out of TES games..... And for someone who almost always makes mage characters this would ruin the series for me.

[Memai]

I think it's not so much of removing the 'elements'-- I think it's more along the lines of 'simplifying' the spells so it's easier to understand. Very basic spells in the early game was just that-- basic spells that dealt out a bit of damage. But back then you had spellcrafting, so you could pretty much concoct your own spells and use it accordingly. It was definitely a fun aspect of playing a mage, though, I admit.

But I think for simplicity's sake, I like Skyrim's (and I guess I could throw in Oblivion as well) spells and magical powers-- I really only play as Destruction or Conjuration mages, so I hardly used anything like wards or alteration spells. It narrowed things down for me, and with the favorites menu, made it easier for me to pick and use spells I KNOW I would use. Spellcrafting was fun, no doubt, but sometimes I just like seeing my enemies die in a rain of fire ;>

[Hissien]

.......except magic doesnt "do" much anymore. In morrowind, i can open locks, fly, trigger traps from a distance, teleport, conjure a wide variety of daedra and even two animals, can glitch myself to have thousands of magicka and much more. "Simple" "dumbed down" is pretty much the same thing to some. Spell crafting was only part of it and i actually have yet to do it in morrowind so that isnt really what my problem with skyrim magic. My problem is that this is a trend that has continued from the beginning of the series and quite personally i dont like it. In a game about choice and variety they have seriously "simplified it".

But.... one could also say that it makes very much sense for skyrim to have very little magic since most nords shun it.... however it still makes me laugh that Todd said he wanted magic to be "something special" in skyrim.

[Memai]

.......except magic doesnt "do" much anymore. In morrowind, i can open locks, fly, trigger traps from a distance, teleport, conjure a wide variety of daedra and even two animals, can glitch myself to have thousands of magicka and much more.

^ I knew I forgot to mention something.

I think what they wanted to do in Skyrim was make the skills a little more segregated (bear with me here XD). For example, playing a mage in the older game granted you the awe-inspiring ability to do whatever you wanted. Like you said, triggering traps or opening locks-- you didn't need to get your lockpicking skills up to break into a place, and you didn't need to be sneaky enough to evade traps since you can trigger them from a safe distance. You worked your way up, find the spellbook and boom, you're set!

Which is all well and dandy, of course.

But I prefer Skyrim's "do x skill enough and you'll be good at it". It doesn't make sense for a mage to be able to pick a lock, magically or not, if they've never done it before ever. Especially if said mage was more focused on other schools of magic, like destruction or conjuration. Other classes go through this as well-- a thief who has more skill in archery would deal more damage with a bow and arrow, because that's what they use the most. A warrior who specializes in two-handed weapons won't deal much with a sword-and-shield combo.

RE: Todd's "magic is something special"-- I kind of see it as special? XD I mean, mages can be incredibly powerful and game-breaking, even without the special misc. spells from the older games. You can deal a lot of damage in a short amount of time without a lot of magicka being lost. My mage character levels up faster and takes on boss fights like no problem-- he may be stunted in terms of health and stamina, but I find that I very rarely have to worry about him dying in battle when he's got the master destruction spells learned. Dwemer Centurions become minor annoyances with Lightning Storm now :p

[dzio]

And here lies the problem. If you take a look at lore books in TES games which mention magic in any way, you'll see that the mages don't have the pre-defined, pre-packaged spells that are only good for one specific purpose. Using magic begins with intent, with deciding what you want to do, and from this point you move on to figuring out ways to make it happen. So the triggering traps thing doesn't come out of nowhere. It's not a "I know kung-fu" kind of thing. I imagine that your mage gets better at Alteration magic, figures out how to manipulate objects from a distance, then (in the process of learning the specific spell) he learns a thing or two about how the traps work and then, when he knows where the trigger is, he can use the spell to activate it from a safe distance.

I prefer Morrowind spellcrafting, because it's closer to the ideal of magic as an endlessly flexible tool that's limited only by the caster's imagination and determination. It's impossible to fully implement this ideal in an actual game, because it's impossible to predict all the crazy ideas the players might have, but for me that's not an excuse for abandoning the ideal completely. It's a dare to get as close as possible.

[Hissien]

But that is how magic is meant to be in tes.... in lore and all the previous games. I dont mind how skyrim is, it makes perfect sense for magic to be "streamlined" because skyrim seems very pragmatic in how its items work. But in future games there should more spell effects, well depending on the region.

And about the lockpicking skill, it isnt like it can get anymore useless. Lockbashing should be allowed for warriors and spells for mages maybe there should be a risk of destroying goods in said chest if spells or a weapon is used.

[Br3admax]

1.This is Skyrim, "Go cast your fancy spells somewhere else"
2.They reduced spells because gamers could make a spell that gave 100% weakness to spells, a 100% weakness to magic, and did 1000 fire damage. That is way OP.

You could fly in Morrowind because there were no cells, and it was easy to exploit. Unlocking any lock is illegal in? Skyrim they won't let you do it.

It things like this that make me imagine that smithing will be redone for the next game as well, it won't be "dumbed down".

[Hissien]

..... Did you even read the last part? I already said that about skyrim being less mage-friendly.

Also you can make armor and weapons that make you one shot a dragon and yet the same for mages is considered OP? No one forces you to make OP spells, i know i dont make them and i rarely make spells at all so that isnt what this is about for me. If you cant resist the temptation to make OP spells or want to then you should be able to.

[Br3admax]

It things like this that make me imagine that smithing will be redone for the next game as well, and it won't be "dumbed down".

Now, who is not reading?

[Hissien]

Oh you.... And thats why i love posting with you.

Well to be honest i dont want them to redo smithing or anything like that, it should be our choice if we want to be a god or if i want to be phillip the potato farmer. In these games with many choices i dont want to remove the options or make everyone go the same end, end-game you should be OP if you want to be...

[Br3admax]

Enchanting will also probably be redone, I learned Firestorm today, and it cost's me zero to cast it. I have enchanted armor that lets me smith 175% better, with 100 smithing, and alchemy potions that let me smith 112% better, all the crafting will be redone, magic just got the redoing first.

[dzio]

@Hissien - That's why the magic system is such a great example of dumbing games down. This is how magic is supposed to be, and yet in Oblivion and Skyrim they're gradually moving away from the "you can do everything you imagine (up to a point)" magic system and closer to the "we've made this easy to use and helpful list of spells for you, aren't you grateful?". I have nothing against making things go smoother and getting rid of glitches and mistakes. But that's one more step towards a point where the game plays itself and I'm just supposed to watch the shiny colours and click on something from time to time, and nothing, under any circumstances, is ever supposed to be frustrating or difficult...

I'm exagerrating, of course, that's just the extreme end of the road we're walking now. I don't think things will go this far, but the line between making a perfect catch-all game that appeals to millions of people (and makes millions of dollars) and making a bland, tasteless mix of easy to swallow entertainment ideas is rather thin. And dangerously close, IMHO.

Lockbashing and kicking down doors should be allowed for everyone. That's the whole beauty of TES, just because you're a Conjuration expert, it doesn't mean you can't also learn how to disarm traps or be strong enough to open the door with a well aimed kick. That's why I don't see any skill as useless and I don't like limiting their number. Yes, sometimes one specific way of doing something is the easiest and the most efficient. But not every character has to use this way if it doesn't fit the RP idea for him - otherwise every single character ends up very similar in the long run. The point is not taking away the less popular option just because it's less efficient. That's one more way of replacing the player's choice with the "let me help you, I know better" attitude and turning a genuine open-world game into an illusion of one.

[Hissien]

Look they can redo all they want just return some of the more mundane spell effects and i will be perfectly happy. Levitation? No, i actually agree that this should have been removed since it is VERY game breaking. The only thing that redeemed it in Morrowind was the high cost per use and in a game with no magicka regen you needed a good cause to use it. But night eye, silence, cure disease, cure poison, reflect damage, reflect spell, MANY summon spells, poison effect, resist magicka, recall, weakness spells and more? Not really necessary to be removed since they got rid of spell crafting.

[Br3admax]

A lot of those were replaced by perks, Atronach is a stone and a perk, do you really need resit magicka, oh wait that's on the same perk tree. Perks removed the need for a lot of those, and those summons made even less since.

[Hissien]

.....How do summons not make sense? I dont follow. If they exist, a conjurer can conjure them. Thats how magic works in TES. Some are more difficult than others but almost all things are summon-able.

Yea i would like resist magicka as a spell, i never wanted a perk tree in the first place! I like it NOW but i was totally against it. Night eye? Useful telekinesis? Recall? Poison as a spell? There was no reason to remove them, just because i want to have resist magicka doesnt mean i want to be an alteration mage. I make my characters usually end around level 20-30 i dont like to go any further.

[Br3admax]

Resist magicka was an alteration, or restoration they exchange spells, spell so yes you do. There was no need for recall, not with fast travel put back in. Telekinesis has always been useless. Explain how Night Eye made any sense, how would it work even naturally. And poison, as a spell, even worse.

[p-sto]

I miss the cure disease spell but I understand why they killed it. With how fast magic regens in Skyrim the spell would make diseases pretty pointless.

[dzio]

Telekinesis is the thief's best friend. And Night Eye is perfect for any stealthy character, because it doesn't generate light that can give away your position. And it can be easily explained - it just makes your eyes more sensitive to light, so you can see things with very little illumination. Poison as a spell is great too. It's like what I've written above - they shouldn't leave only one way of doing things. You can poison your weapon with a potion, but you should have a magical option as well.

[Hissien]

Telekinesis has always been useless. .

Have you EVER activated a trapped door with it in morrowind or used it on switches in oblivion? No? The of course it isnt useful to you.

I dont need to explain night eye, it is magic. It polymorphs your eyes into cat eyes or maybe it just makes you think you can see in night eye. If neither of those satisfies you then make up your own, making "sense" isnt exactly the realm of magicka now is it?

It was usually restoration, i said i didnt want to be an alteration. Poison was a great DOT spell, just because you dont like something doesnt make it useless. Recall also saves you inside of dungeons when you are going to die.