Nationality Affecting Side in Skyrim Civil War

[Br3admax]

Legions=1000-5000 soldiers, hardly an army. There are more.

[Anonymous98223]

Oh please, it was a Nordic empire when it was founded centuries ago. During the time of Uriel VII it was heavily Imperialized, centralized in Cyrodiil. With a Colovian warlord taking the Emperor title, I'll wager the Empire become even more centered around Cyrodiil. It's not a Nordic anymore nor was it in a long time, no matter how much historical references you'd like to bring up.

It's like saying Americans are Englishmen or Byzantine Greeks are Latin Romans. They're not, they started with one culture but moved to another.

Colovia has always been predominantly Nordic, a Colovian lineage of emperors sit on the throne currently, plenty of Nords in Skyrim also seem to still support the empire. I'd say its still pretty Nordic. The Nords are integrated into the Empire pretty well, and there is plenty of Nordic influence in Cyrodiil. Even if what you say is true, the Empire is definitively not "foreign" to Skyrim. They have always been pretty involved and familiar with it. That statement might be true with provinces like Morrowind or Elseweyr, but it doesn't work with Skyrim.

And one does not just simply destroy an entire army, at least on the scale Wolfie's talking about, I was under the impression that the imperials simply defeated all the Thalmor at that specific battle. Assuming they defeated all of the Thalmor's forces all over Cyrodiil is just absurd.

[Wolfie]

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Great_War#The_Great_War

Battle of the Red Ring, 4E 175.[50] Titus II splits his remaining forces into three hosts that surround the occupied Imperial City. After a long, bloody battle, the Aldmeri army in Cyrodiil is utterly destroyed and the Imperial City recaptured. Lord Naarifin is hanged from the top of White-Gold Tower and kept alive for thirty-three days. Despite the resounding victory, Titus II realizes that the Empire is too exhausted to continue fighting. Titus negotiates with the Thalmor and signs the White-Gold Concordat, a treaty that gives the Thalmor free reign to stamp out the worship of Talos in Tamriel, disbands the Blades, and cedes a large part of southern Hammerfell to the Aldmeri Dominion. Critics note that the terms of the Concordat are almost identical to those of the original ultimatum presented by the Thalmor prior to the war.

And becuse I know this wont be enough

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Great_War_(book)

you can read that in game to read how it even says it was.

[Anonymous98223]

Battle of the Red Ring, 4E 175.[50] Titus II splits his remaining forces into three hosts that surround the occupied Imperial City. After a long, bloody battle, the Aldmeri army in Cyrodiil is utterly destroyed and the Imperial City recaptured. Lord Naarifin is hanged from the top of White-Gold Tower and kept alive for thirty-three days. Despite the resounding victory, Titus II realizes that the Empire is too exhausted to continue fighting. Titus negotiates with the Thalmor and signs the White-Gold Concordat, a treaty that gives the Thalmor free reign to stamp out the worship of Talos in Tamriel, disbands the Blades, and cedes a large part of southern Hammerfell to the Aldmeri Dominion. Critics note that the terms of the Concordat are almost identical to those of the original ultimatum presented by the Thalmor prior to the war.

Edit: I admit I was wrong on this part. But what if the Thalmor still have armies in Alinor, or Valenwood? Or what if the Thalmor where to send another? I don't think either side was fit enpugh to continue fighting.

[Wolfie]

Except he was wrong becuse the Redgaurds, who are part of the empire, could, so what logic is a part of it could but more of them could not?

We are saying he was wrong to stop.
The redagured did it for five more years, they could of to if not longer, he made a mistake.

[Anonymous98223]

Ok. That's just quit doing this, its very tiring, and all we do is repeat ourselves. Agree to disagree?

[Giordano]

Oh please, it was a Nordic empire when it was founded centuries ago. During the time of Uriel VII it was heavily Imperialized, centralized in Cyrodiil. With a Colovian warlord taking the Emperor title, I'll wager the Empire become even more centered around Cyrodiil. It's not a Nordic anymore nor was it in a long time, no matter how much historical references you'd like to bring up.

It's like saying Americans are Englishmen or Byzantine Greeks are Latin Romans. They're not, they started with one culture but moved to another.

Colovia has always been predominantly Nordic, a Colovian lineage of emperors sit on the throne currently, plenty of Nords in Skyrim also seem to still support the empire. I'd say its still pretty Nordic. The Nords are integrated into the Empire pretty well, and there is plenty of Nordic influence in Cyrodiil. Even if what you say is true, the Empire is definitively not "foreign" to Skyrim. They have always been pretty involved and familiar with it. That statement might be true with provinces like Morrowind or Elseweyr, but it doesn't work with Skyrim.

Skyrim does not have it's own power to operate how it sees fit (self-determination). Talos, patron God of the Nords, is banned. The unpopular Thalmor is going around kidnapping people. Taxes are going to Cyrodiil to repay the war. No legitimacy for Ulfric as High King.

What is making these things happen? A government outside of Skyrim: a foreign power.

Again, the Empire, Colovia, Imperial pratices may all have orgins in Skyrim, but Skyrim's Nords do not control the Empire. The real power lies in the Imperial City and I don't know how you can argue that's located in Skyrim. It is a foreign power, a far-away Empire if it makes you feel better. Regardless, the Skyrim Nords have little to no power to the direction of the Empire.


About the "army" thing: that's Beth's mistake. A common misconception, an "army" is NOT a state's entire military force. It is an armed force independent from other armed forces it's size. In medieval and early modern era warfare, armies were the largest armed force in a campaign. There could be multiple campaigns going on, or only 1 army doing the campaigning and the rest defending other areas. A group of armies would be called an Army Group or a Theater.

To say the Thalmor lost all their forces in the Battle of the Red Ring is foolish. There are other armies guarding other places of the war, including the Summerset Isles.

But to talk about justifying the Stormcloaks over whether or not the Empire could or couldn't win the war is pointless. The fact of the matter is, Skyrim deserves independence and a right for it's self-determination. Period. Why Skyrim needs independence can be said from the aftereffects of the White Gold Condorat, not the possibility of winning the Great War.

[Wolfie]

About the "army" thing: that's Beth's mistake. A common misconception, an "army" is NOT a state's entire military force. It is an armed force independent from other armed forces it's size. In medieval and early modern era warfare, armies were the largest armed force in a campaign. There could be multiple campaigns going on, or only 1 army doing the campaigning and the rest defending other areas. A group of armies would be called an Army Group or a Theater.

To say the Thalmor lost all their forces in the Battle of the Red Ring is foolish. There are other armies guarding other places of the war, including the Summerset Isles.

.

We know but they had all forces they could spare there so wde know they lost a LOT and then lost even more in a bloody five year war.

[Anonymous98223]

It deserves Independence yet half of the population presumably doesn't even want it. The rebels aren't the majority as you seem to be assuming, there are plenty, as I have said, that still support the Empire. Does there opinion mean nothing? Or should the Stormcloaks automatically get Independence just because they want it. Seems like an awful way to run a nation.

[Wolfie]

It deserves Independence yet half of the population presumably doesn't even want it. The rebels aren't the majority as you seem to be assuming, there are plenty, as I have said, that still support the Empire. Does there opinion mean nothing? Or should the Stormcloaks automatically get Independence just because they want it. Seems like an awful way to run a nation.

I dont think half a nation can beat an army of three nations... my guess is its more then half since they are a Threat to the empire.
And again these are only those who are willing to FIGHT many more want chnage but dont fight.

[Anonymous98223]

Well according to the prophecy of the Dragonborn, its Nords fighting Nords, brothers spilling their own blood. Not Bretons and Imperials, so yeah I would say about half of the population still want the empire. The local Nords join the legion, as others join the Stormcloaks, by choice.

[Wolfie]

Well according to the prophecy of the Dragonborn, its Nords fighting Nords, brothers spilling their own blood. Not Bretons and Imperials, so yeah I would say about half of the population still want the empire. The local Nords join the legion, as others join the Stormcloaks, by choice.

things like that should not be taken litral, there are many imrpeals in the army you can see in game, its just metpor for like
"when the blood drips in to oblivion the darkness shall fall"
its not saying darkness as in dark, but as in evil

[Giordano]

It deserves Independence yet half of the population presumably doesn't even want it. The rebels aren't the majority as you seem to be assuming, there are plenty, as I have said, that still support the Empire. Does there opinion mean nothing? Or should the Stormcloaks automatically get Independence just because they want it. Seems like an awful way to run a nation.

If it deserves independence, how are they supposed to achieve it? I am to assume, following common sense and historical patterns not told (as far as I read) in the lore, there have been peaceful attempts of independence (probably from the Jarls, mostly). How else are the Nords supposed to achieve independence? Is the Empire automatically entitled to Skyrim because they "own" it and the opinions of separatists mean nothing? That's an awful way to run a nation, but that is how they are ran.

I consider myself a reformist, wanting to change the Empire for greater autonomy among it's provinces. But again, following common sense and historical patterns not told in the lore, I assume these efforts achieved nothing.

So please explain to me, other than continuously petitioning peacefully or waiting for things to change, how the Nords are supposed to achieve independence?

[Anonymous98223]

things like that should not be taken litral, there are many imrpeals in the army you can see in game, its just metpor for like
"when the blood drips in to oblivion the darkness shall fall"
its not saying darkness as in dark, but as in evil

I'm sorry, but I have no idea what it is your trying to say. Yes there are imperials and Dunmer and Bretons in the Legion, buts its a fight between the Nords, and the legions and Skyrim are mostly local Nords from Skyrim, so it seems that plenty of them don't wish to secede.

And I disagree, prophecies in Tamriel should be taken very seriously. The prophecy says that Nords are spilling there own blood. Are you saying its lieing? And something like that seems pretty strait forward, not much really to be interpreted there. It seems Nords are killing Nords.

If it deserves independence, how are they supposed to achieve it? I am to assume, following common sense and historical patterns not told (as far as I read) in the lore, there have been peaceful attempts of independence (probably from the Jarls, mostly). How else are the Nords supposed to achieve independence? Is the Empire automatically entitled to Skyrim because they "own" it and the opinions of separatists mean nothing? That's an awful way to run a nation, but that is how they are ran.

I consider myself a reformist, wanting to change the Empire for greater autonomy among it's provinces. But again, following common sense and historical patterns not told in the lore, I assume these efforts achieved nothing.

So please explain to me, other than continuously petitioning peacefully or waiting for things to change, how the Nords are supposed to achieve independence?

Well are the Nords not entitled to their opinions, half of Skyrim wants to stay in the Empire, the other doesn't, they are both fighting for it. I don't see why just because half the population wishes to rebel means there automatically more deserving than the rest, and thus there demands should automatically be obeyed. I say that the other half deserves Skyrim just has much as the Stormcloaks do.

I don't get why your approaching Independence as the only option, or why your assuming I intended for them to sign a petition.

[Br3admax]

"When brothers spill blood..." that's a Civil War, it doesn't have to be Nord exclusive. And actually a lot of Legionaires are Imperial. It's more than Nords killing Nords.

[Wolfie]

I'm sorry, but I have no idea what it is your trying to say. Yes there are imperials and Dunmer and Bretons in the Legion, buts its a fight between the Nords, and the legions and Skyrim are mostly local Nords from Skyrim, so it seems that plenty of them don't wish to secede.

And I disagree, prophecies in Tamriel should be taken very seriously. The prophecy says that Nords are spilling there own blood. Are you saying its lieing? And something like that seems pretty strait forward, not much really to be interpreted there. It seems Nords are killing Nords.

they are, but just like its called brother aginst brother it dint mean evrey one fighting has a brother or evrey one is a nord, the imrepla legio HAS imrepals in it. in game
It is nord aginst nord very much so becuse the nords ARE the empires main army, they have been for a long time, they are the "Ground hitters" as it where, guys who go in and wipe out.

But there ARe imrpelas and what not in game that you can kill that are with the impreals.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Legate_Taurinus_Duilis not a norde
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:General_Tullius not a nord
\
and thats just the ones I know off the top of the head, many of the generic ones are also not Nord's

It DONT mean only Nords are fighting, it means like if I say
"brother aginst brother" dose that mean all of them fighting are brothers? no heck some could even be form out of the country and what it even really means is untrue. (it means country men fithign one another)

Nords are fighting, but form what I see many of the lgeion are not nords.
Its defeintly not a clear case after al even WITH the legions help of non nords they STILL are more or less matched with the stormlcocks, that to me sujsget there are more stomclocks then non stomrlcock nords.

[Anonymous98223]

I never denied that there are Imperials in the Legion, only that the majority are Nords, and that the Civil War seems to more of a local problem, not something that the Empire is sending legionaries from all over there lands for. And the imperials and nords in Skyrim seem mostly indistinguishable. I'd say allot of the Imperials in the Legion in Skyrim are local and have Nordic blood and share there customs, so for all intents and purposes I'd consider them Nordic. It seems at this point in Tamriel History, the genetic differences between Imperials and Nords can be vague at times, and often the terms seem to apply more to nationality more than they do race.

[Giordano]

If it deserves independence, how are they supposed to achieve it? I am to assume, following common sense and historical patterns not told (as far as I read) in the lore, there have been peaceful attempts of independence (probably from the Jarls, mostly). How else are the Nords supposed to achieve independence? Is the Empire automatically entitled to Skyrim because they "own" it and the opinions of separatists mean nothing? That's an awful way to run a nation, but that is how they are ran.

I consider myself a reformist, wanting to change the Empire for greater autonomy among it's provinces. But again, following common sense and historical patterns not told in the lore, I assume these efforts achieved nothing.

So please explain to me, other than continuously petitioning peacefully or waiting for things to change, how the Nords are supposed to achieve independence?

Well are the Nords not entitled to their opinions, half of Skyrim wants to stay in the Empire, the other doesn't, they are both fighting for it. I don't see why just because half the population wishes to rebel means there automatically more deserving than the rest, and thus there demands should automatically be obeyed. I say that the other half deserves Skyrim just has much as the Stormcloaks do.

I don't get why your approaching Independence as the only option, or why your assuming I intended for them to sign a petition.

I never said they are more deserving, that would be foolish. There is no right or wrong side, it is whatever you'd gain the most from. I'm justifying the Stormcloak cause, one that can be righteous and deserving, but not one outright. Plus my second objective is to convince others to see it from my point of view, agree with Nordic self-determination, see it as a justifiable cause, and side with the Stormcloaks.

Is there any option other than independence? Greater autonomy is out of the question since the Empire is weakened and desperately needs Skyrim to support itself. I suppose you could launch a coup, then direct powers over to Skyrim but then you're screwing over the people in Cyrodiil. Best for each province to be independent.

[Wolfie]

I disagree with this, we have no proof fo that at all, it may be true but we have nothiong to base it on.

The fact is that the empire DID send an army over, nbot evrey one but did send an army that set up camp, and they get requite to help, but the fact they need recuits and even THEN cant win out right?
How in the world is it 50\50 when the imrpeal nords plus the rest of the army is a MATCH for stormclcoks?

[Anonymous98223]

I never said they are more deserving, that would be foolish. There is no right or wrong side, it is whatever you'd gain the most from. I'm justifying the Stormcloak cause, one that can be righteous and deserving, but not one outright. Plus my second objective is to convince others to see it from my point of view, agree with Nordic self-determination, see it as a justifiable cause, and side with the Stormcloaks.

Is there any option other than independence? Greater autonomy is out of the question since the Empire is weakened and desperately needs Skyrim to support itself. I suppose you could launch a coup, then direct powers over to Skyrim but then you're screwing over the people in Cyrodiil. Best for each province to be independent.

Well sorry I misinterpreted you, I'll respect your viewpoint.

The fact is that the empire DID send an army over, nbot evrey one but did send an army that set up camp, and they get requite to help, but the fact they need recuits and even THEN cant win out right?
How in the world is it 50\50 when the imrpeal nords plus the rest of the army is a MATCH for stormclcoks?

What army, they sent Tullius to support there cause, that's the only thing I've heard of? The majority of the Legions in Skyrim where probably already in place, and again, made up of mostly local Nords who supported them. No one said its exactly 50/50, but there's no indication that the Stormcloaks are the majority, or that they out match the imperials.

[Wolfie]

What army, they sent Tullius to support there cause, that's the only thing I've heard of? The majority of the Legions in Skyrim where probably already in place, and again, made up of mostly local Nords who supported them. No one said its exactly 50/50, but there's no indication that the Stormcloaks are the majority, or that they out match the imperials.

You think they really only sent Tullius by him self? they sand a genreal all by him self... oh and also the other impreals I listed also are not form there
so we have at least 6 "named" guys who where sent over, who else was sent?

I'd say a lot more where.
some may of been stationed there and I agree the bulk of it is nords form around the place, but the fact remains Tulilius did not come alone (the link to the other one and all the others like him) those are ganrented, and then MA NY of the other genric ones most likely


i think its quite clear its not 50\50 with in favor of stormclcoks, and the amount that WANT to do what the stormclcoks do but are nit willing to go to war with the empire for it, is much, much higher.

[Anonymous98223]

Of course Tulius wouldn't have been sent alone, but its not like the Empire would have sent large forces into Skyrim, they would of sent Tulius and his protege to direct the ones already their.

i think its quite clear its not 50\50 with in favor of stormclcoks, and the amount that WANT to do what the stormclcoks do but are nit willing to go to war with the empire for it, is much, much higher.

Show me proof that's fact and I'll believe it, but as it is it sounds an awfully lot like opinion. I'd say that by playing Skyrim that there is no majority, and that there are plenty supporting both sides who don't fight, just look at the citizens of Helgen.

[Wolfie]

For proof of this, look at how many say "The stormclocks are doing it the wrong way but the thalmor need to be stoped now" or words to that affect.

Many say they WANT to fight the thalmor, they want to stop them, but not this way

Thats my proof, as for showing you, I cant, your best bet is to go in to game and count evrey single person who says they want to fight the thalmor now, wiether or not they agree with how the stormclcoks went about it, or are willing to fight yet.

I beliuve more then half the empire wants to go to war with the thalmor now but the empire wont do it.

[Anonymous98223]

While they might respect their goals, the fact that they believe there going about it wrong means shows that those individuals don't support them. Both the Empire and Skyrim have some similar long term goals, they just go about it differently.

[Wolfie]

While they might respect their goals, the fact that they believe there going about it wrong means shows that those individuals don't support them. Both the Empire and Skyrim have some similar long term goals, they just go about it differently.

My point is the stormclcoks goal is attack NOW, the empire's is not, the stormclcoks plan is not long term, they are going to do it almost right away/

Most of the empire DONT agree with the empires stance on not fighting yet, they WANT to fight, but they dont feel going to war, that dont mean its 50\50
just 50\50 willing to fight. (even then I'd say a lot of the legion in Skyrim are not form Skyrim, find it hard to belive they only send a handful over.)