Nationality Affecting Side in Skyrim Civil War

[Br3admax]

I don't think it is like that at all. Because Americans =/= Imperial, most of us are a Breton or have some sort of Breton like descent. And America has a certain document that stops exactly what the Empire is doing. But I will not go into that, because it is wrong apparently.

[Derp53]

I don't think it is like that at all. Because Americans =/= Imperial, most of us are a Breton or have some sort of Breton like descent. And America has a certain document that stops exactly what the Empire is doing. But I will not go into that, because it is wrong apparently.

ummmm I'm not exactly white, I'm indian and when compared with TES I would probably be a redguard. Not to mention the other asian, latin american and african minorities too

[Anonymous98223]

Peoples have a right for their own country based on cultural and economical similarities. Skyrim is the land of the Nords and based on what they practice and what they produce, they have every damn right to proclaim independence from a foreign Empire who keeps them around for their own people's (Imperials) benefit.

Its not a "foreign" Empire. In many ways Skyrim IS the empire just as much as Cyrodiil is. Its an empire of nords. The nords built the empire. The Nords are the empires people, it was around for their benefit as well. And it was nords who also accepted the White-Gold Concordat, not just the imperials making decisions for them.

[Br3admax]

I don't think it is like that at all. Because Americans =/= Imperial, most of us are a Breton or have some sort of Breton like descent. And America has a certain document that stops exactly what the Empire is doing. But I will not go into that, because it is wrong apparently.

ummmm I'm not exactly white, I'm indian and when compared with TES I would probably be a redguard. Not to mention the other asian, latin american and african minorities too

I'm not white either I'm more of a Redguard/"awhile ago Breton", that's why I said most and some sort of decent. mostly because most people in America are white, that's why we are the minority.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Being Imperial is about more than blood. Cyrodill is a melting pot of various cultures. Many Cyrodillic families have blood from other races, as do many American families. That's the biggest similarity between the two cultures I can think of.

In real life, I have all the major genetic haplotypes because I know for a fact I have ancestors who were black, white, Native American, Jewish, Arab, Moor (arguably black, sure, but distinct) etc. I don't identify with any ethnic group but the National identity American. I think the Imperials feel that way about themselves, too, especially the Nibenese who are racially diverse.

[Wolfie]

Peoples have a right for their own country based on cultural and economical similarities. Skyrim is the land of the Nords and based on what they practice and what they produce, they have every damn right to proclaim independence from a foreign Empire who keeps them around for their own people's (Imperials) benefit.

Its not a "foreign" Empire. In many ways Skyrim IS the empire just as much as Cyrodiil is. Its an empire of nords. The nords built the empire. The Nords are the empires people, it was around for their benefit as well. And it was nords who also accepted the White-Gold Concordat, not just the imperials making decisions for them.

This is untrue, many jarls even say they did not get a say in the matter it was just a "follow this or else"

They did not accepe they had no choice.
The empororsigned it with out asking the other nations.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Peoples have a right for their own country based on cultural and economical similarities. Skyrim is the land of the Nords and based on what they practice and what they produce, they have every damn right to proclaim independence from a foreign Empire who keeps them around for their own people's (Imperials) benefit.

Its not a "foreign" Empire. In many ways Skyrim IS the empire just as much as Cyrodiil is. Its an empire of nords. The nords built the empire. The Nords are the empires people, it was around for their benefit as well. And it was nords who also accepted the White-Gold Concordat, not just the imperials making decisions for them.

This is untrue, many jarls even say they did not get a say in the matter it was just a "follow this or else"

They did not accepe they had no choice.
The empororsigned it with out asking the other nations.

Nonsense.

The Elder Council had a say in the matter, and representatives from all nations under the flag of the Empire were present. I'm also pretty sure the High Kings of the provinces were asked their opinion.

[Br3admax]

No it was "follow this, and take this gold, or else."
@Pilaf, here's how it went. "No, I'll never sell out the people of Skyr.... did you say gold? Why yes, of course we'll follow you till the end. 'the Nords have never been fair weather friends', of course we'll "give up Talos" breaking the law is cool now. Thanks for the gold."

[Pilaf The Defiler]

No it was "follow this, and take this gold, or else."
@Pilaf, here's how it went. "No, I'll never sell out the people of Skyr.... did you say gold? Why yes, of course we'll follow you till the end. 'the Nords have never been fair weather friends', of course we'll "give up Talos" breaking the law is cool now. Thanks for the gold."

"This isn't about the gold, damn it" Balgruuf

You demonize the Imperials so readily, you know that? Is compromise and bipartisanship such a foreign and distasteful concept to you? Sometimes you have to do what's realistic in order to survive and move forward. I'd like you to tell me exactly how the Empire was supposed to survive without this Concordant. It took all the Redguards had to just barely push the Dominion out of Hammerfell, and they had several key strategical advantages, so using them as an example of "winning" is not advisable.

[Wolfie]

The empororsigned it with out asking the other nations.

Nonsense.

The Elder Council had a say in the matter, and representatives from all nations under the flag of the Empire were present. I'm also pretty sure the High Kings of the provinces were asked their opinion.[/quote]

did you not hear the convo betwen the jarls asbout how they where not asked?

[Pilaf The Defiler]

The petty Jarls of individual counties are not a member of either of the groups that I stated were probably consulted, or did you not even read what I wrote?

[Wolfie]

My point was that he had said that HAD a say in it

Its not a "foreign" Empire. In many ways Skyrim IS the empire just as much as Cyrodiil is. Its an empire of nords. The nords built the empire. The Nords are the empires people, it was around for their benefit as well. And it was nords who also accepted the White-Gold Concordat, not just the imperials making decisions for them.

and I said no they did not, or did you not read what I wrote?

I never said the Eldcer councial did not have a say.
and just becuse they where present dont mean they had a say.

i could be present to my hanigng dont me I have a say in it.

[Mod-Loving Wood Elf]

Looks like everyone's leaning towards the Legion regardless of side. To be honest, the Skyrim Civil War did not remind me of any real-life war. The Great War of thirty years before, however, does remind me of the actual "Great War" of 1914-1918.

[Br3admax]

Tell me this, Pilaf, then why can Redguard=6(they are "the most naturally talented warriors in Tamriel") Imperial=4, Nord=5, Orc=5.5, Breton=4.5, and Dunmer=3(Less fighting Dunmer) While Altmer=6(mages), and Bosmer=5.5(archers). Now the Thalmor army was decimated in Cyrodill. So it is 6+5.5=11.5/2, or 5.75. 6>5.5, is it not? Why does 6+5.5+4+4.5+5+3 !(not in code)>or even >=5.75? And as to the other stuff, I think you know more than most that I am not patient.

[Wolfie]

E$xactly, the redgaurds had been fighting a cival war before the great war, took a lot of damn e durring and THEN fought for five more years,
I dont care what kind of "advatage" they had, all it adds up to is the empire could of done more, a hell of a lot more.

[Anonymous98223]

That's just your opinion. There's no evidence that the Imperials could of continued on for much longer. Because the Redguards did it in their war, who's circumstances and details are have not been described to us in great detail, doesn't mean the Empire could of. They barely survived the war, and then they win one battle, it seems like they did the logical thing. Which was ending the war while they still could. We can't know what could have happened had they continued, the Empire could of been decimated.

[Wolfie]

That's just your opinion. There's no evidence that the Imperials could of continued on for much longer. Because the Redguards did it in their war, who's circumstances and details are have not been described to us in great detail, doesn't mean the Empire could of. They barely survived the war, and then they win one battle, it seems like they did the logical thing. Which was ending the war while they still could. We can't know what could have happened had they continued, the Empire could of been decimated.

How can MORE forces do WORSE then the redgaurds? when the redgaurds went on for five yearS?

tell me when dose an army of 5000 not do as good as an army of 500?*

*I know we dont know the numbers but its clear its a lot by lore as its four other provinces.

They won MORe then one battle, they 100% whiped out the thalmnor army there 100%
it was not just one battle.

what happen was the thalmor got lucky, it was just a decoy but it did so well they went on and did more, and the seceond the empire forces regrouped they took it all.

[Anonymous98223]

Again, that's all opinion. And besides, Hammerfall was just one province and wasn't even in the empire anymore, why would the Thalmor put as much effort into taking it and defending what fraction of it they did own than they would fighting the Empire. And especially when they just signed the concordat and where supposed to be rebuilding, it would seem counter productive. And they would be in the same position that the Empire are in, instead of spending there resources on strengthening themselves there still using them to fight petty wars. The Redguards most likely faced nothing compared to what the imperials fought. The war in Hammerfall just seems to be the aftermath, the dust after the storm.

[Br3admax]

That sounds like the worst military strategy I have ever heard. "Yes, lets kill even more soilders when it takes almost 30 years for them to become adults."

[Anonymous98223]

Well, continuing to fight battles after a war on the scale of The Great War seems like terrible military strategy to me. Like someone mentioned somewhere, after World War 2, nobody wanted to keep fighting, they wanted it all to stop. One might assume that the Thalmor are just as tired of the constant fighting as anyone, and lake the drive to keep it up, hence them signing the concordat. The Redguards where fighting for there homes, the Thalmor could of just been tired soldeirs following orders. One could also assumed that the Dominion isn't so well off financially right now, due to the war. They might not of had the men or resources to keep fighting efficiently. The Redguards where fighting an army that had already been through a massive war, which could also account for there victory. So they might of just finished the Thalmor off in their lands, after the Imperials did the majority of the fighting.

[Wolfie]

Well, continuing to fight battles after a war on the scale of The Great War seems like terrible military strategy to me. Like someone mentioned somewhere, after World War 2, nobody wanted to keep fighting, they wanted it all to stop. One might assume that the Thalmor are just as tired of the constant fighting as anyone, and lake the drive to keep it up, hence them signing the concordat. One could also assumed that the Dominion isn't so well of financially right now, due to the war. They might not of had the men or resources to keep fighting efficiently. The Redguards where fighting an army that had already been through a massive war, which could also account for there victory. So they might of just finished the Thalmor off, after the Imperials did the majority of the fighting.

The redgaurds where NOT fighting the same army, the army durring the great war was 100% whiped out.

The thing is pepole DID want to keep fighting, the redgaurds got kicked out becuse of it, Uflric and his men wanted to, and most jarls admiting to wanting to fight, we dont know m,uch else but evrey thing we know of says they WANTED to fight.

My point how ever is if the empire DID help (it did 100% help the redgaurds win the war, how much better would it of been if the empire attacked with the redgaurds?

[Br3admax]

We can not use real world examples because we are all human, I hope. We do not take decades to develop. Elves do. They can not just through wave after wave of Soldiers just for the fun of it, especially after there army was already decimated.

One could also assumed that the Dominion isn't so well of financially right now, due to the war. They might not of had the men or resources to keep fighting efficiently. The Redguards where fighting an army that had already been through a massive war, which could also account for there victory. So they might of just finished the Thalmor off, after the Imperials did the majority of the fighting.

They should have finished the job then. That's why I do not believe in the Empire. Don't start what you can't finish.

[Giordano]

Peoples have a right for their own country based on cultural and economical similarities. Skyrim is the land of the Nords and based on what they practice and what they produce, they have every damn right to proclaim independence from a foreign Empire who keeps them around for their own people's (Imperials) benefit.

Its not a "foreign" Empire. In many ways Skyrim IS the empire just as much as Cyrodiil is. Its an empire of nords. The nords built the empire. The Nords are the empires people, it was around for their benefit as well. And it was nords who also accepted the White-Gold Concordat, not just the imperials making decisions for them.

Oh please, it was a Nordic empire when it was founded centuries ago. During the time of Uriel VII it was heavily Imperialized, centralized in Cyrodiil. With a Colovian warlord taking the Emperor title, I'll wager the Empire become even more centered around Cyrodiil. It's not a Nordic anymore nor was it in a long time, no matter how much historical references you'd like to bring up.

It's like saying Americans are Englishmen or Byzantine Greeks are Latin Romans. They're not, they started with one culture but moved to another.

And who cares if the Imperial Nordic Province supported the White Gold Concordat. A selected few representatives voted for it. Where it's concerned, a republic is just like having multiple dictators. It is in the right of every Imperial citizen to overthrow their overlords. That's not the American in me saying it, just a common sense of justice.

[Anonymous98223]

Yes the Redguards wanted to keep fighting, but obviously the Thalmor and the Empire didn't.

The redgaurds where NOT fighting the same army, the army durring the great war was 100% whiped out.

Well see this could support my argument, so the imperials defeat the majority of the Thalmor and then the Redguards just kick out what was left in their own lands. There's no evidence that says the Redguards fought the Thalmor on the scale the Imperials did.

And one doesn't have to of fought in a war to be tired of it. Perhaps they had been stationed in that desert since the war started, and just want to get the heel out of there.

I see no reason to conclude that the Thalmor in Hammerfall hadn't seeing any fighting however, surely the Thalmor had more than one army involved in the war.

They should have finished the job then. That's why I do not believe in the Empire. Don't start what you can't finish.

The Empire didn't seem to be doing very well either, while I can assume that the war would of been costly to the Thalmor, I also believe that they still have the upper-hand. After there repeated losses, I'd say the Empire lost more then they did. The Thalmor only lost one army that I'm aware of, the Empire saw entire Legions destroyed.

[Wolfie]

Yes the Redguards wanted to keep fighting, but obviously the Thalmor and the Empire didn't.

But the point is they could of ended this all if they kept fighting, and now it might be to alte.

Well see this could support my argument, so the imperials defeat the majority of the Thalmor and then the Redguards just kick out what was left in their own lands. There's no evidence that says the Redguards fought the Thalmor on the scale the Imperials did.

Our point is that the thalmor where not as strong as the empire any more, ONE province in the empire could win and be left alone why could they all not be?
Becuse the empire did not try,

I see no reason to conclude that the Thalmor in Hammerfall hadn't seeing any fighting however, surely the Thalmor had more than one army involved in the war.

they had one "army" do the whole thing, they had some attack the imrpelas and one go for the redgaurds, at the time the plan was to keep the empire busy while they BEAT the redgaurds.
They did so well aginst the empire they decide to put ALL forces they couyld psare to take the IC, so in short it was a diffreint army, most likely a makeshift army, that fought the edgaurds, in short the thalmor dont have much of an army, or at least did not at the time.

The Empire didn't seem to be doing very well either, while I can assume that the war would of been costly to the Thalmor, I also believe that they still have the upper-hand. After there repeated losses, I'd say the Empire lost more then they did. The Thalmor only lost one army that I'm aware of, the Empire saw entire Legions destroyed.

Legion's =\= armies in this case, ALL legions combined is the Empires army

So legions are like "sqaurds" if you will. not even close to an entire army.