Nationality Affecting Side in Skyrim Civil War

[Pilaf The Defiler]

this was BEFORE the war, before all the "the stormclcokc are to blame" proaganda.
This was the empire breaking a promise.

The Empire never made that promise.

The person who pretended to speak for the Empire didn't, and Ulfric was a fool for assuming he did.

[Wolfie]

I believe it's said somewhere that it was allot easier to get away with Talos worship or something before the Stormcloaks overreacted. And I doubt that all of that Silver would only go to Cyrodiil, Cyrodiil isn't the only place in the Empire, if anything it would spread throughout the Empire, which would include Skyrim. But the Stormcloaks are so closed-minded to gaze beyond the borders of Skyrim and to act with their brains instead of pride to see what they could cause. If Skyrim is independent, I'd bet that most of that Silver would go to Skyrim, and not other places its needed.

this was BEFORE the war, before all the "the stormclcokc are to blame" proaganda.
This was the empire breaking a promise.

It not like it wants to, its doing what it has to. If the Thalmor hadn't caught wind of it, I don't see any reason that the Empire wouldn't of stuck to their word. But sometimes doing whats smart requires a little sacrifice. The empire also has to keep its word to the Thalmor, so to prevent another war for as long as possible. Its not like their being the as unjust as you think they are, there doing whats best for the Empire as a howl, not just Skyrim. The Stormcloaks are to selfish to see that.

It not like it wants to, its doing what it has to. But sometimes doing whats smart requires a little sacrifice. the stormclocks ahve to do what is right, and fight the thalmor before its to late, the thalmor Fear either side, they are NOT super strong and require all provinces to unite.
It's not like they are being as selfish as you think they are, they have to do whats best for them becuse the empire is going to give what ever the thalmor wants for far to long and LOSE the next war, you do NOT wait to go to a war when your only advantage is you have kids fatser, they wait to long thalmor will out number, out gun, and no amount of waitng will change this bvecuse elfs life longer.



Also Pilaf
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Bear_of_Markarth
Nothing in there about any one promising somehting they could not

proof?

[Anonymous98223]

You also don't go to war when your not ready. And because of the Stormcloaks its going to take the Empire longer to do that. The Stormcloaks are only thinking for themselves, there concerns don't go any further than the borders of Skyrim.

Edit: And do you think Talos would want the Stormcloaks to weaken HIS empire.

[Wolfie]

You also don't go to war when your not ready. And because of the Stormcloaks its going to take the Empire longer to do that. The Stormcloaks are only thinking for themselves, there concerns don't go any further than the borders of Skyrim.

Except they ARE reddy, they are acting like the Thalmor are a big thing to fear, but the Redgaurds beat them by them selfs, they lost TWO wars one of which their army was 100% destoyed they dont have kids fast enough to fight, and they fear even JUST the stormclcoks, let alone the empire, the empire could go to war now, theyt just feel they ahve to wait they do NOT


Also thats propganda, they been saying "we will attack latter" "not now" "its this that stops us, no this"

if its the stormnclcoks really stoping them form going to war then make peace with them, let them worship their God and go to war with the Thalmor, the empire has no plans to go to war.

[Br3admax]

You also don't go to war when your not ready. And because of the Stormcloaks its going to take the Empire longer to do that. The Stormcloaks are only thinking for themselves, there concerns don't go any further than the borders of Skyrim.

Edit: And do you think Talos would want the Stormcloaks to weaken HIS empire.

Just like America is George Washington's country. Same land =/= same concept.

[Wolfie]

And do you think Talos would want the Stormcloaks to weaken HIS empire.


He would attack with the Stormcloaks, he would know now is the time.

What has the empire done? whiped out the entier army and yet still gave the thalmor what they wanted, then kicked out a province, then treated some of its pepole badily causing them to feel the need to rebel, and they lost almost ALL the provinces, Skyrim is not weaking the empire, the empire weakned the empire.

[Anonymous98223]

The situation in Hammerfall was an entirely different type of war, and you've been told that. And I don't see any indication that the Empire is ready to fight the Thalmor, maybe they where close, but thanks to the Stormcloaks it appears they're far from it.

Also thats propganda, they been saying "we will attack latter" "not now" "its this that stops us, no this"

And the Stormcloaks don't use propaganda? It seems the Stormcloaks claims are far less educated and more biased then the Empires. If the Empire was ready to fight the Thalmor, they would of fought the Thalmor.

And what do you know of the Empires "plans".

Just like America is George Washington's country. Same land =/= same concept.

Being the tactical genies that he was, I don't think Talos would be following in the Stormcloaks foot steps. And I have to disagree with you there, it seems for the longest time the citizens of Skyrim and Cyrodiil where willing to claim that Talos = Empire. George Washington was never as important to America as Talos was to the the Empire. Washington was never worshiped as a god.

He would attack with the Stormcloaks, he would know now is the time.

There is no evidence that he Empire is ready to fight the Thalmor.

What has the empire done? whiped out the entier army and yet still gave the thalmor what they wanted, then kicked out a province, then treated some of its pepole badily causing them to feel the need to rebel, and they lost almost ALL the provinces, Skyrim is not weaking the empire, the empire weakned the empire.

The Empire has strategically given itself more time to prepare for the next war, and all the Stormcloaks have done is waste that time. There no evidence the Empire could have kept on fighting. And they "abandoned" Hammerfall cause they where also to close-minded to stop fighting, and heal. I read somewhere that Mede left some of his more experienced Legionaries to aid the Redguards in Hammerfall, so if that is true, it seems he didn't just abandon them.

[Wolfie]

The situation in Hammerfall was an entirely different type of war, and you've been told that. And I don't see any indication that the Empire is ready to fight the Thalmor, maybe they where close, but thanks to the Stormcloaks it appears they're far from it.

And you belive that? becuse they say so?

I hardily think they "magicly" are reddy after Ulfirc waited for how many decaders? its been how long?

they wait much longer they WONT be reddy, their moment is almost gone soon the Elfs with have their next genration and the empire wont stand a chance.

And the Stormcloaks don't use propaganda? It seems the Stormcloaks claims are far less educated and more biased then the Empires. If the Empire was ready to fight the Thalmor, they would of fought the Thalmor.

They dont think they are, they feel they need a "united" empiure, they felt they could not hold out aginst the thalmor the first time and where proven wrong when hammerfall did it, they where just one proicinve and tyhey did, what could all the empire of done?

And what do you know of the Empires "plans".

Could say the same to you.

worshiped as a god.

There is no evidence that he Empire is ready to fight the Thalmor.

the thalmor want to buy time, they want this war to go on they dont want to go to war with ANY of them now, how is that not evdince they are redsdy? the thalmor FEAR a war form eityher one.

The Empire has strategically given itself more time to prepare for the next war, and all the Stormcloaks have done is waste that time.

the empire is wasting time right now, they cant "out wait the thalmor" the thalmor will soon have their next genration and all this "wating" will be pointless.

The only reasson they are doing good right now is the Elf's have to wait to reprudce a lot longer, and dont mate as much, this will soon be gone. and the thalmor will have a whole new genration of solders, all of which will be loyal while the empire keeps on lossing pepole cause they are "waiting" for an advatage they will never get.

There no evidence the Empire could have kept on fighting. And they "abandoned" Hammerfall cause they where also to close-minded to stop fighting, and heal. I read somewhere that Mede left some of his more experienced Legionaries to aid the Redguards in Hammerfall, so if that is true, it seems he didn't just abandon them.

Yes there is, if one of their provinces, only one, could of held off tyhe thalmor what could that one and four more of done?

also he did not leave them, they disobeyted orders.

[Hissien]

What was this thread about again? If we want to continue arguing about thalmor can we go back to the thread i made about it instead of stealing this one?

[Anonymous98223]

And you belive that?

Yes, it indeed was a very different situation. It was a defensive war, or so I've been told. Hammerfall did not have to fend of the bulk of Thalmor forces like the Empire did, and I doubt the Thalmor would have wasted too many of their troops and time that the Concordat gave them to keep such a small area of land. There focus seems to have shifted to infiltrating the empire.

They dont think they are, they feel they need a "united" empiure, they felt they could not hold out aginst the thalmor the first time and where proven wrong when hammerfall did it, they where just one proicinve and tyhey did, what could all the empire of done?

And history has taught us that there right. Have you seen "Rise of the Planet of the Apes", will in that movie Casaer teaches his fellow ape a very important lesson with a pair of twigs. The Empire had one great victory, after a series of crushing defeats, that's not enough to say they could of won. They did the smart thing, instead of risking defeat.

Could say the same to you.

The entire point of the Concordat was to rebuild and heal for the next war, I'd say that's what the Empire plans are.

also he did not leave them, they disobeyted orders.

That's part of what I said, your the one who implied that he simply left them to die.

What was this thread about again? If we want to continue arguing about thalmor can we go back to the thread i made about it instead of stealing this one?

Good point, I'm done arguing.

[Mefris Elmek]

If Skyrim is independent, I'd bet that most of that Silver would go to Skyrim, and not other places its needed.

Of course most of it would go to Skyrim....were else would it go?
75% Skyrim , 25% trade (or if there's a surplus more for trade)
And I don't think that if,for example,Hammerfell would ask for help Skyrim will not answer.

The Empire never made that promise.

The person who pretended to speak for the Empire didn't, and Ulfric was a fool for assuming he did.

I guess you condone the Jarl's actions then?

(Tricking Ulfric into helping Markarth,sending the guards to kill everyone that have a connection to the Fosworn (even women and children) and scapegoating Ulfric with it then handing him over to the Thalmor)

I guess you're right.Ulfric was a fool for trusting a spineless Imperial wessel that he once called "kinsman".

Edit: And do you think Talos would want the Stormcloaks to weaken HIS empire.

Ha,"HIS empire".HIS empire died 200 years ago.This Empire of Rubble is Mede's creation.

And the Stormcloaks don't use propaganda?

Fine,quote a SC propaganda.

If the Empire was ready to fight the Thalmor, they would of fought the Thalmor.

....but instead the Empire renounced Hammerfell and left them to fight the Thalmor alone.Which they did.To a standstill .
On.their.own.

The Empire has strategically given itself more time to prepare for the next war,[...]

AHA!So that's why they gave up Hammerfell to the Thalmor and made it legal for them to kill citizens of the Empire!To give the Thalmor something to play with while the Empire hatches a master plan to make it all better again!

Yes, it indeed was a very different situation. It was a defensive war, or so I've been told. Hammerfall did not have to fend of the bulk of Thalmor forces like the Empire did, and I doubt the Thalmor would have wasted too many of their troops and time that the Concordat gave them to keep such a small area of land. There focus seems to have shifted to infiltrating the empire.

Then why fight a war in the first place?
Because the Redguards would be sitting ducks on their own that's why.
Both you and the Thalmor underestimated their resilience and valour.

Good point, I'm done arguing.

I'm done as well.

[Velvet LeChance]

Fine,quote a SC propaganda.

Nords Arise, Is this what your looking for ?
EDIT: Dont know why I cant get it to link to the page, you'll just have to search it.

[Nova]

I'm Polish, but I live in Britania land so, I think I would be legion.

Note: I prefer Stormcloaks, but realistically speaking based on my location, I would suspect I would be forced to support the Legion.

[MidbossVyers]

You also don't go to war when your not ready. And because of the Stormcloaks its going to take the Empire longer to do that. The Stormcloaks are only thinking for themselves, there concerns don't go any further than the borders of Skyrim.

Edit: And do you think Talos would want the Stormcloaks to weaken HIS empire.

That's where I disagree. True that Talos created the Empire of Tiber SEPTIM, but this current Empire is what made by Titus MEDE. It may be the same plots of land, but because the bloodline is different, the dynasty and empire are different. It may be different in the US where even when there is a different President, the country is the same, but in imperial China, for example, many followers of the Han dynasty were often enemies of the succeeding Wei dynasty. And followers of the Wei tried to stop the start of the Jin dynasty.

[Br3admax]

Fine,quote a SC propaganda.

Nords Arise!, Is this what your looking for ?
EDIT: Dont know why I cant get it to link to the page, you'll just have to search it.

That "!" was really important, you aren't a true Nord.

[Mefris Elmek]

Fine,quote a SC propaganda.

Nords Arise, Is this what your looking for ?
EDIT: Dont know why I cant get it to link to the page, you'll just have to search it.

Yes and no.

That's where I disagree. True that Talos created the Empire of Tiber SEPTIM, but this current Empire is what made by Titus MEDE. It may be the same plots of land, but because the bloodline is different, the dynasty and empire are different. It may be different in the US where even when there is a different President, the country is the same, but in imperial China, for example, many followers of the Han dynasty were often enemies of the succeeding Wei dynasty. And followers of the Wei tried to stop the start of the Jin dynasty.

So on and so forth.Anyway...

Talos doesn't give a skeever's ass about this Empire because he has to deal with saving Mankind from total destruction.
When that "little" issue is resolved he'll puke a dragonborn from the sky,crown him emperor and only THEN can we talk about "HIS" empire (although that would be pushing it as well).

[Kavatch99]

I'm an American, and I vote for the Legion. (and if I were alive during the American Revolution, I'd be a neutral Loyalist. I would have sympathized with the colonies, but felt that there were other solutions to the issues they faced.)

Not really sure what real-world nationality has to do with this. Sorry, OP.

But this is what I think. If we're going to attribute American history to this, then we'd need to use the American Civil War. Why? Because it was a war between people of the same country. The American Revolution? We were a band of colonies across the ocean who decided to become a united country. We don't call it a civil war, even though we were technically still British, and thus were fighting against our own established soldiers. It was clearly Americans vs. British as far as they were concerned.

The American Civil War, however, had the United States government against the southern portion who rebelled against them. People of the same country fighting each other. Americans (Union) vs. Americans (Confederate). The Skyrim Civil War was the same thing. "When the sons of Skyrim would spill their own blood". Nords fighting each other. It isn't Skyrim vs. Cyrodiil. It's Skyrim (Imperial) versus Skyrim (Nord).

And if I were alive during the American Civil War, I would've fought for the Union.

[Travalanche]

It seems that Americans support both sides almost equally so far with empire winning by a single vote, I went with Stormcloak because they wanted to cut my head off, I did contemplate it for a while and my character isn't a Nord or Imperial so that was a tough choice.

I also don't like either Ulfric or Tullius, honestly the deal breaker was due to the Empire trying to chop off my head... simple as that.

[Wolfie]

^ Sorry forgot to vote

[Minor Edits]

I must say, the results are surprising to me. The sample size is only 57 currently, but still. I wasn't expecting the American vote to be so close. I imagine the freedom of religion crowd here are too impatient to grant the Empire some time to strap on some balls, and then there's all the impulsive "**** the establishment" voters who don't give it much thought. The "Other" votes are also skewing in the opposite direction of what I would've predicted.

[Wolfie]

to be fair, we can come up with a reasson for why pepole side with the empire as well that shades them as "bad"

(if you cant tell its kind of ofeensive to say the reasson we are on the stormclcokjs is becuse we are impatient.

[Minor Edits]

Well, you can explain to me in a PM your thinking if you like, but those are the only two reasons I can really understand. That is, if it's presumed the voters are fully informed, and that the enforcement of the ban is temporary since another war with the Thalmor is undoubtedly on the horizon regardless of who wins in the rebellion.

I guess there might also be a few roleplayers out there who concocted a back story that puts them firmly against the Empire just for kicks. There are certainly ways to paint the reasoning of an Imperial supporter as bad, but taking the strongest arguments of both sides, I just don't see it.

[Travalanche]

I personally don't like the Empire as they try to control other countries for profit under the guise of an allegiance (google the Iraq war for oil for details) lol.

[Minor Edits]

That would fall under my "**** the establishment" reason. Equate the Empire with the American government, think "**** them", and so Stormcloaks seem like the right choice. I can understand that. Don't agree, but it's understandable.

[Giordano]

That would fall under my "**** the establishment" reason. Equate the Empire with the American government, think "**** them", and so Stormcloaks seem like the right choice. I can understand that. Don't agree, but it's understandable.

It's not really "**** the establishment" rather than preserving the rights for self-determination for Skyrim/Iraq from Imperial/American profits.

Peoples have a right for their own country based on cultural and economical similarities. Skyrim is the land of the Nords and based on what they practice and what they produce, they have every damn right to proclaim independence from a foreign Empire who keeps them around for their own people's (Imperials) benefit.

To equate siding with the Stormcloaks as rebelling against the authority for the sake of rebelling, is very narrow minded. Each province has their right to break away from their foreign overlords, let them be Imperials or Elven.