A Song of Ice and Fire

[The-Shadow-One]

You are a sweet child of summer.

And now it is time for winter.

[Roadcone]

Exactly and it was actually Robert who beat her to death out of rage when he found her.

Nah man, she died giving birth to Jon. She made Ned promise her that he'd never tell anyone the truth. ("Promise me Ned.") That's why he never talks about Jon's mother.

Robert didn't find her, he was in kings landing. It was Ned.

[Gbaji]

Sorry for the necro-post; I just finished A Dance with Dragons last week after reading all five novels in as many months. Last summer I played a frightening amount of Crusader Kings II, which has lots of overlap with A Song of Ice and Fire and of course there's an applicable mod. I started playing Skyrim about halfway through the novels, and ASoIaF obviously influenced my characters and role-playing. I've been reading all the forums that I had been avoiding for fear of spoilers, and now I have a bunch of thoughts that I need to set down somewhere. I'll happily start a new thread if that's what's appropriate.

All my comments include spoilers through the end of A Dance with Dragons...

Spoiler:

I'll start by answering the questions from the beginning of the thread.

Favorite character: No surprise, it's Tyrion. He's deliciously cynical, and he has every right to be. His wit ought to give him the advantage, but more often than not it is his downfall. I'm particularly interested in the Tyrion the History Nerd, who promises to play a decisive role. Had Tywin's cunning overcome his pride, he would have sent teenage Tyrion to the Citadel. If Tyrion gets a "happy ending," it'll be as an ArchMaester in Oldtown.

Favorite scene: It's a tie between Tywin's death on the privvy and Daenerys birthing her dragons.

Favorite passage: I'm chagrinned to admit that I tore through all five novels so quickly that no single passage sticks in my head. I borrowed the Kindle editions from the library, so I can't even flip back through to choose a selection.

Favorite faction: The Night's Watch gets extra points for being apolitical and beleaguered (and of course it's the closest to being in Skyrim). We haven't learned much about the Citadel, and I'm eager to see Sam the Slayer make his chain. (Is Petyr Baelish a faction?)

Most Hated Character: Up through A Storm of Swords I would have said Melisandre; serene, doubtless, murderous zealot. In motivation and capability, she was just a fiery version of The Others. Once Stannis went to the Wall, however, we got another perspective on Melisandre, and now she's just another player with finite information and power. Even before GRRM gave us a chapter from her perspective, I could tell something had changed simply by the fact that both Melisandre and Davos were still working for Stannis without one destroying the other. It was Davos who convinced Stannis to abandon the Dragonstone and sail to Eastwatch in direct opposition to Melisandre's plans. That this exploit didn't lead to a violent rupture by Melisandre showed that she is capable of reassessing her position. Later, we saw Melisandre doubting her ability to scry the flames and reconsidering her identification of Azor Ahai with Stannis. So now I don't hate her at all. Ramsay Snow is going to great lengths to disgust me, but it will snow in the Summer Isles before I forgive Walder Frey.

A few words about GRRM and killing off beloved characters. Before I started the series, a friend warned me that "GRRM has no mercy regarding his characters." I expect he had the Red Wedding in mind. The problem with this interpretation is, we've had more false death reports and cliffhanger escapes than actual criminal deaths. We heard about Tywin's malodorous corpse for so long that I was expecting it to rise with blue eyes and ambush Cersei behind the arras. And that doesn't even take into account that priests of R'hllor can apparently resurrect people. So I no longer fear GRRM's scythe. I had decided that there were only three characters whose perspectives were so vital that GRRM couldn't kill them without fatally undermining the narrative momentum he had established: Tyrion, Daenerys, and Jon Snow. So of course GRRM ends A Dance with Dragons with Jon apparently dead.

I haven't yet researched all the possible conjectures of how to resolve this cliffhanger, but I can't really offer an alternative to the obvious theory that Melisandre will give Jon the Kiss of Life (whether or not she decides that Jon is the second coming of Azor Ahai). Does anyone have a better theory? Or does anyone think that Jon is truly dead and we're going into the final two novels with a diluted and dispirited Night's Watch?

I think the leadership of the Night's Watch is critical to the conclusion of the series. My understanding of where GRRM was heading has changed somewhat, but I've always thought it significant that the series opens with a ranging destroyed by The Others that mocked the petty rivalries that animate the game of thrones. We are initially positioned to think of House Stark as the "good guys," and when the Starks fall we are tempted to regard it as the necessary setback before a Stark heir (and we have many to choose from) emerges from the wilderness and rides Shai-Hulud a dragon a direwolf into Kings Landing. As the War of Five Kings suffered its many senseless atrocities and reversals, I entertained the idea that GRRM saw the Targaryens as the rightful rulers of Westeros and now that they had dragons again, the Stark-Lannister feud would be seen as childish and pointless. But I've returned to the philosophy that whomever is sitting on the Iron Throne is much less important than who can stop The Others. The decisive factors will include dragonglass and dragonfire, to be certain, but what do the Maesters of Oldtown and the R'hllor priests in Volantis and Euron Crow's Eye know about defeating Winter? Do the Wildings honor Punxatawney Phil?

The other philosophy that belittles the players of the game of thrones is that of Petyr Baelish and Varys the Spider. Those two guys are behind everything. The two main "cosmic" developments that will dominate all known realms and render the game of thrones meaningless are: 1) the coming of Winter, and 2) the reappearance of Dragons. Littlefinger and Varys had no knowledge of either of these developments, yet they had fallback plans and were able to adapt when necessary. Each has made use of the other, and yet I haven't even seen either of them regard the other as a rival or partner. Varys clearly believes that Targaryens + dragons = stability/peace, and he helped the Targaryen heirs escape without any knowledge that the dragons would return, but now that they have he's ready to bring them to Westeros.

Littlefinger might be the perfect sociopath, except that his love/obsession for Catelyn/Sansa will be his undoing. My favorite comment was that in the end, Sansa will kill Petyr, and he'll be proud of her.

Allow me to date myself: Whenever I see a reference to House Martell, I think of Pete & Catherine.

[ForbiddenFig403]

I'm about a quarter into ADWD, though I've forgotten exactly where, just assume all the spoilers below are up to the beginnings of ADWD.

I know these posts were old, but the discussion on HBO's conversion of the series made me smile here:

Daenerys has been rewritten as an incompetent child who can't even keep track of her dragons...

...Danaerys is a child. I'm reading ADwD and surprised about how unready she is in some aspects, particularly in relations to dragons.

Spoiler:

I was about to say... she loses Drogon for quite awhile. But she's only a child and knows little of such things. <3 She does show time and time again her wisdom beyond her years, and I don't hold it against her that dragon training doesn't come naturally, even if it's in her blood. They're dragons after all.

In regards to the questions!

My favorite characters in no particular order are Tyrion, Dolorous Edd, Danaerys, Samwell Tarly, and last but not least Davos Seaworth. Tyrion and Edd I love for their hilarious ways with words. Danaerys for her wisdom in her youth (as well as her sexuality Steamy! Does this make me a pedophile... oh no T_T). Samwell and Davos for their steadfast loyalty to their friends and masters, Samwell in particular for the way he bumbles through life.

Favourite scene(s) so far?

Spoiler:

Danaerys killing the unsullied. The Red Wedding. I cried when Aemon died through (basically) the other black brother's careless attitude to the time frame of the ship being in port, and how Samwell struggled with it all. Subsequently was delighted to know the black brother was dead. Samwell meeting Bran and leading them through the wall. When Tyrion shot his father on the privvy, then choked out his so-thought lover with the golden hands necklace (laughed and cried). When Cersei's plan to bring charges of treason on Margaery backfired upon her and not ONLY that but Jaime is tired as hell of her B.S. and won't save her. Lastly, (b/c I think I've ranted enough for now) when Sansa and Lysa grapples and Petyr shoves her out of the Moon Door. I hated Sansa up until around that point, but then she grew on me with how she deals with little spoiled Robert. I'd have smacked that kid upside his noggin a long time ago.

Favourite passage would be as follows: "To go north, you must journey south, to reach the west you must go east. To go forward you must go back and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow." -Quaithe

Spoiler:

“My wants do not matter,” said the kindly man. “It may be that the Many-Faced God has led you here to be his instrument, but when I look at you I see a child… and worse a girl child. Many have served Him of Many Faces through the centuries, but only a few of His servants have been women. Women bring life into the world. We bring the gift of death. No one can do both.” - The Kindly Man

“Remember this, boy. All dwarfs may be [&@%!], yet not all [&@%!] need be dwarfs." And with that he turned and sauntered back into the feast, whistling a tune. When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king.”

I'm so happy I found this one online. One of my favorites. “He found Podrick Payne asleep in a chair outside the door of the solar, and shook him by the shoulder. "Summon Bronn, and then run down to the stables and have two horses saddled." (Tyrion).

The squire's eyes were cloudy with sleep. "Horses". (squire)

"Those big brown animals that love apples, I'm sure you've seen them. Four legs and a tail. But Bronn first."

I don't really have a favorite house, but it's mostly because I don't always remember them well enough (not as well as I'd like, so I'd prefer not to pass judgment on something I don't comprehend fully). I was never very good with history.

Most hated characters would be a tie between Bran (I like his backstory and all, but him as a person is just meh to me) and Ser Jorah Mormont. He may redeem himself yet, who knows. I used to hate Cersei and Sansa (softened upon reading more) but I also loved to hate them.