Back to Morrowind

cypruss11 · Post by **cypruss11** » Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:23 pm

I have played all three, and I can say that without a doubt I prefer the storyline, immersion, dungeons, levelling system, and everything else aside from the lesser variety in spells and potions in Skyrim. Morrowind was a fine game.. Oblivion was a fine game.. but Skyrim is a GREAT game. (Now please don't hate me for saying I like Skyrim's storyline the most. It is true!)

TheEskimoe · Post by **TheEskimoe** » Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:29 pm

I totally agree. I absolutely love oblivion and skyrim really let me down. it was great for the first fourth-night but after that it got incredibly tedious. i played morrowind but never really got into the story ( spent most of my time using console commands make my character super-buffed

) and i got totally emerged in oblivion's quests, it felt like they had a certain amount of urgency that skyrim lacked.

dzio · Post by **dzio** » Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:31 pm

@Wolfie - Eh, if you really want to...

Main points: map markers for caves, forts and stuff break the immersion for me, just like too many "helpful" additions to journal entries do. Limited conversation opitions - I get it was necessary because of the voice acting, but I'd choose having to read over this limitation. On the same point - I'm a really fast reader, so waiting for the voice actor stalls the game and makes every single conversation mildly annoying (and clicking to interrupt them and move to the next line because I've already read the subtitles once again messes with the immersion). Less joinable factions. Less complex magic and enchanting. With the exception of Ayleid ruins (which are awesome) I like "the look" of the game less, but this is a purely esthetic thing and pretty minor.

Levelled world is the real deal-breaker for me though - I feel it seriously dumbs the game down, the fact that the world is cut to fit me is horrible for immersion, and the levelled loot and impossibility of randomly running into something awesome at any point in the game takes a lot of fun out of exploration. I don't want the game world to revolve around me, I want it to make me feel small and awed.

That's the most important things. Maybe they don't bother you and I know that you could now come up with dozen reasons why none of those are really flaws and I'm irrationally annoyed here, and besides Morrowind doesn't have those but it has other stuff that's not so good. Please, don't. They do bother me and they won't stop bothering me just because you point at something that's flawed in Morrowind. It's like trying to convince someone to like a different kind of food by pointing out that some people find their favourite kind of food too spicy.

I hope you can see now that we really have nothing to argue about, we just have different tastes and look for different things in role-playing games.

@Glyre - no problem.

@cypruss - no one is going to hate you for having an opinion.

(I'm not even able to say if I agree with it or not, since I have no idea what Skyrim's plot is like, so I have no way to compare it to the others.)

Wolfie · Post by **Wolfie** » Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:58 pm

Thanks for doing that and I'll respect your wishes not to bring them up.
you didf excatly what I guessed you would, and yes they are 100% founded and I agree with most of them.
bbut still it is clear that my point still stands, for some reasson things can be forgiving in one but no the other, and we can say "well morrowind had this problem so dsont rbing it down for that"
The others dont get that.

dzio · Post by **dzio** » Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:13 am

I would rephrase the "forgiving one problem but not the other" thing as "some people can overlook certain flaws, while for others they are unacceptable" and I wouldn't look for reasons any further than the fact that different people have different tastes, but that's pretty much what I was trying to point out form the beginning.

Wolfie · Post by **Wolfie** » Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:23 am

But I think there is more to it, I really think its more like

"I dont like this food its to hot" but like the other one that hasd the exact same level of hotness but form diffreint spices.

so there is no diffrince in the hotnes.

You can say its becuse of "prefence" but I'm saying no its not, its cause they are not getting

"goblins are so anoying and ruin the game" can be connected to "cliffracers are so anooying but oh well it can be forgiving"

*again an exsaplme not saying hwats what your saying in any shape or form but rather that the things that "dont just bug you" would of if they where in oblivon and DO in some cases.

dzio · Post by **dzio** » Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:38 am

You really think that if two things are very similar they must be equally annoying (or equally not annoying) to everyone? I rather think that people's tastes and preferences can be a bit more complex than that and don't always strictly follow logic. You can't logically explain liking apples but disliking pears (unless it's something like "I took a bite of a rotten pear when I was a kid and it was disgusting"), but that's a legitimate preference that many people have... So I'd say it's perfectly possible that someone, to use another example of a flaw that both games have, can't stand ugly faces in Oblivion but has no problem with ugly faces in Morrowind (or the other way around). They're a slightly different kind of ugly, so I don't see why not.

Wolfie · Post by **Wolfie** » Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:45 am

dzio wrote:You really think that if two things are very similar they must be equally annoying (or equally not annoying) to everyone? I rather think that people's tastes and preferences can be a bit more complex than that and don't always strictly follow logic. You can't logically explain liking apples but disliking pears (unless it's something like "I took a bite of a rotten pear when I was a kid and it was disgusting"), but that's a legitimate preference that many people have... So I'd say it's perfectly possible that someone, to use another example of a flaw that both games have, can't stand ugly faces in Oblivion but has no problem with ugly faces in Morrowind (or the other way around). They're a slightly different kind of ugly, so I don't see why not.

Except once again, it comes to WHY is it bad in oblivion, some would say that they dont konw but 9 timnes out of ten its going to be "becuse they look ugly and I cant stand ugly faces"

"What about morrowind"?

It was made ten years ago it gets a pass.

dzio · Post by **dzio** » Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:06 am

But that's what I mean - there doesn't have to be a why. At all. I personally prefer the Morrowind brand of ugly. Maybe they're closer to the generally more "angular" style of the Morrowind graphics, while in Oblivion there's a big contrast between beautiful landscapes and those ugly mugs? Or maybe I just like how badass many of them look? Can't tell you why, I have no idea. It's just apples and pears. So I suppose with most people it's not "I can't stand an ugly face", it's "I can't stand this ugly face", and it's probably the same with many other situations where only one out of two similar problems bugs someone.

Wolfie · Post by **Wolfie** » Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:38 am

So you dont know why then, are you willing to admit the fact you dont know why means it MAY be becuseits morrowind and thats why?

Glyre · Post by **Glyre** » Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:23 am

How do you determine which type of person is attractive to you in real life? Some people just look appealing. Maybe there are some base characteristics that you like, but even then I think it's possible to see someone who lacks those characteristics and yet is still attractive. By your logic should we not find all people equally attractive or revolting?

I think, Wolfie, that you want to prove something, perhaps that most Morrowind fans are irrational or wearing rose colored glasses. I don't know. In any case it seems that you really want there to be connections when, as dzio has at least alluded to, sometimes there are none. Not everything, especially matters of taste, can be looked at in such a logical or even cause-and-effect manner. Perhaps you think that Morrowind is unjustly praised while Skyrim and Oblivion are torn down—perhaps in some places that is true. But the opposite is true as well. Punch "Morrowind sucks" or "Skyrim/Oblivion is better than Morrowind" into google and I'm sure you'll find countless results that lambast Morrowind to no end while ignoring the faults of the other two games.

How about instead of saying it may be because of Morrowind that people like this or that, it is because of this or that that people like Morrowind/Skyrim/Oblivion...what have you. Most people know when they like something fairly instinctively—there's not a lot of thought that goes into the process. Likewise, people may know what they dislike or do not like as much just as instinctively. Obviously they would probably be able to give a few reasons explaining their feelings in both instances. These feelings don't need to be logical or even make sense when compared with each other—for oftentimes we can't really explain just what it is that makes us like or dislike something, rather, we do our best.

I understand that you want to point out to people that what they criticize in Skyrim goes ignored when they speak of Morrowind. Fine, do that. But it's futile, for it won't accomplish anything. What's more, it doesn't matter, for as dzio stated there doesn't have to be a why.

Perhaps you are a much more logical and fact-driven person than most and know, without fail, why you like everything you do—great, sometimes I wish I could be like you! But keep in mind that many do not, and many simply like things because they do. The Japanese have a phrase that basically means "you're too logical." I like that phrase—perhaps because, as a rather feelings-driven person I don't always have logic to back up my opinions, or because I find that logic can only go so far, and there is a lot that cannot be tackled by logic. Sometimes it is, I think, a prison.

Tl;Dr: I agree with dzio. Opinions can be illogical. I'm not alwats a big fan of logic.

Wolfie · Post by **Wolfie** » Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:44 am

I did what you said, and while there where a LOT, two of them where in a JOKE section of the forums and another was talking about it back when it first came out etc list could go on

Oblivion? way more saying how much more better morrowind is, not to many being jokes or trolls, not when it first came out etc. This is just looking at the first page or so of each.

something to point out, half of the "morrowind sucks" threads is with a "?" and wondering how pepole can think that...

As for me posting about this, why do it? cause I was asked what I think and so I posted, and then pepole said "No thats not true" and so I talked to them about it.

Glyre · Post by **Glyre** » Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:16 am

Interesting. In any event, I think it will be interesting to see if, quite a few years from now, Morrowind goes the way of Daggerfall and Arena and Oblivion becomes the "new" Morrowind.

skooma steve · Post by **skooma steve** » Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:45 am

@Wolfie: I listened to your song. Nice tone on the electric. And I really enjoyed the dichotomy of the equally horrendous acoustic rhythm and electric lead. Also, I find it strangely endearing that you went to the trouble of writing a song for me.

Mod-Loving Wood Elf · Post by **Mod-Loving Wood Elf** » Sat Sep 01, 2012 4:27 am

Skyrim is still awesome, but as soon as the Morrowind Overhaul 3.0 comes out (a huge graphics mod for Morrowind), I'll definitely be returning to Morrowind for a long while.

EarlJ · Post by **EarlJ** » Sat Sep 01, 2012 6:58 am

Morrowind gets a pass on ugly faces because it's old.
Even in it's heyday, it wasn't considered an amazingly pretty game (with some exceptions, like water). I think the decision not to focus on graphics was intentional, in order to do more of other things within the confines of hardware limitations of the period (bear in mind, those limitations include those of the Xbox, which unlike computers couldn't be upgraded). So the ugly in Morrowind is more of a "These were serviceable graphics at the time" thing.

Oblivion's ugly is more damning because in response to criticisms about the ugliness of Morrowind there -was- an effort to make the game among the prettier for it's time. What makes this even worse is when you finish up character creation, you see that the game is perfectly capable of producing non-troglodytes (assuming you played with the sliders until the character you create doesn't look like a total mutant). So the ugliness prevalent among NPCs really doesn't have a fallback excuse.

An excuse other than scale making the task of prettying up the auto-generated masses something of monstrous proportions... but that would apply equally to Skyrim, and those NPCs are comparatively beautiful. But that's a fair comparison, while Skyrim/Oblivion to Morrowind is not; there's nothing to adjust or fine-tune with Morrowind, you're just working with a pre-defined selection of a few dozen heads. It's really apples and outlaws.

Then one has to consider that the upgraded graphics allow more closely human-looking characters. That's important because we're very familiar with... you know... reality, so the closer something comes to a realistic face and fails, the less forgiving we tend to be (because we -know- what a face is supposed to look like). By contrast Morrowind doesn't even come close to realistic faces, and we're more willing to accept that stylized version.

If you don't know what I mean by this, look up the expression 'Uncanny valley'.

Wolfie · Post by **Wolfie** » Sat Sep 01, 2012 7:30 am

I would not say its dumbed down at all, it evlovles.

An exsample, would you want to play morrowind 500000 billions times?

What about street ifghter? or any othere game that adds very lttle and is the same for the next 4934934943934 times?

I cant think of any of theirs that was the same except maybe the first two, even the spins offs where diffreint, and thats what I like, I like when the games dont stay the same.

As for dumbing down, well remeber some of the greatist minds where called "dumb" and "stupid" by those living in the past, and they are no longer rememberd while the ones who where dumb back then are now the greatist.

I'd say in 10 years or so morrowind wont be "the greatist of all time" it will be a bad game and oblivon will be the best, then later the same for skyrim etc, evreyhting gose in cycles.

dzio · Post by **dzio** » Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:30 am

There's evolution and there's devolution - not every change is positive, not even when it's intended to be. And if your predictions were true, there wouldn't now be a huge community of people playing and enjoying old games, like the first Fallout or Baldur's Gate. They would all be considered "bad games", because the newer ones are prettier, have better UI, better combat mechanics, whathaveyou. And who says people want everything to stay the same and to have every game be exactly like Morrowind, so we can play it ad infinitum? I did mention several things that were implemented in Oblivion and which I consider great ideas, didn't I? Well planned and well executed change that improves quality is a good thing. A change based on "woohoo, we have better machines now, look what we can do!" sometimes has good results (when someone let's their creativity and imagination run free, finally unhindered by hardware limitations), and sometimes it gets you Oblivion's mutant faces.

@Earl - It's pretty much what I meant when I wrote that in Morrowind the faces fit the overal style of the game and in Oblivion they are an unnecessarily ugly spot on a beautiful background. Though I wouldn't say Morrowind gets the pass because it's old, I'd say it's because it's consistent and it's succeeding at what it's trying to do. While in Oblivion it's trying to look "real" and lands in Uncanny Valley...

Wolfie · Post by **Wolfie** » Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:39 am

I never said pepole would not play it, just that with evreything times change and so will whats "the best"
For exsample, music, music changes with the times and will keep on doing that, after a while morrowind will be forgoten and if remebver looked down on, and then oblivon will be the "best" in till its time comes to be looked down on

not evrye one will follow this but enough to make it where morrowind is not how it is today.

As for oblivions "real look" I never got they where trying to make the game look more real, and I dont think they ever said they want to make it more real, I know they wanted to focus on art more and how ther game looked.

They made it oblivion, less in some places MAYBE but far, far, far more evrey where else, and IMO pepole judge it far to harsgly, same for skyrim

They build the games based on its own merits not the merits of games before hand

the next game will not be like V iv or iii

once pepole relzie beth dont WANT them to be alike we can get past the "its not the same type of game as morrowind"

dzio · Post by **dzio** » Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:47 am

Wolfie wrote:My problem is that what YOU call good and what the majority call good tends to be diffreint

So? Why do I have to agree with those people? Because there's more of them?

I realise that Beth's decisions made them a ton of money precisely because they made the changes that appeal to the majority. And I know that realistically no one is going to make "my perfect game", because it just wouldn't sell so well. But I thought we were discussing our opinions and preferences here, not Beth's business plan.

Wolfie · Post by **Wolfie** » Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:50 am

dzio wrote:
So? Why do I have to agree with those people? Because there's more of them?

I realise that Beth's decisions made them a ton of money precisely because they made the changes that appeal to the majority. And I know that realistically no one is going to make "my perfect game", because it just wouldn't sell so well. But I thought we were discussing our opinions and preferences here, not Beth's business plan.

yes I caught my self, a bit of lapse for a bit, and rewored with how I wanted to say it

you dont have to agree with them but is it okay to call it "dumbing down"
Just cause it dont go with what you want?

is that not calling somehting dumb cause you dont like it...

Seems to me when you post this and talk about how it "lost this, dont have this, dont have as much contenct"
Your not posting an ophion but rather facts...
as many of them are "facts" or rather can be facts if you hard count something

for exsample the claim that there is more wepeons in morrowind is a fact, etc.
Really dont seem like youre postin ophions when it comes to dumbing down, when the stuff your using is "facts" or can be (an exsample is pepole claim that morrowind has more types of amrous then skyrim, which IIRC is not true, or BARRLY true maybe... hard to remember)

dzio · Post by **dzio** » Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:32 am

Well, it is a fact that there are less joinable factions in Oblivion. My opinion is that it makes the game less enjoyable. You can't argue with the former, but feel free to disagree with the latter.

As for the dumbing down issue - I could call it "making the game more accessible to more casual players who prefer more action-oriented and less demanding role-playing games", but it's a bit of a mouthful...

Wolfie · Post by **Wolfie** » Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:46 pm

dzio wrote:Well, it is a fact that there are less joinable factions in Oblivion. My opinion is that it makes the game less enjoyable. You can't argue with the former, but feel free to disagree with the latter.

As for the dumbing down issue - I could call it "making the game more accessible to more casual players who prefer more action-oriented and less demanding role-playing games", but it's a bit of a mouthful...

Maybe its just me but role playing is 100% the user, not the game...

Do you mean rpg as in "die roll" and what not? in which case I could agree, but Role playing dont require those things at all, just requires you playing a set of rules,t hat you can do for any of the games.

MoncarBelvani · Post by **MoncarBelvani** » Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:56 pm

Wolfie wrote:Except once again, it comes to WHY is it bad in oblivion, some would say that they dont konw but 9 timnes out of ten its going to be "becuse they look ugly and I cant stand ugly faces"

"What about morrowind"?

It was made ten years ago it gets a pass.

Morrowind gets away with having bad graphics/animation because it has more content, and the world is more engaging. Most Morrowind fans don't believe that it's graphics/animation is better than the last two ES games, they just think it's a better RPG despite it's problems. Oblivion and Skyrim get more flak because they aren't very good RPGs, so people feel no need to hold back on the criticisms. Just like how a book doesn't provide the good visuals (even the lones with picture don't

) but it can still be better than a film because of how immersive it is/the amount of content in it.

As for the points being made by people accusing Morrowind fans of just being nostalgic, I've addressed this point in a previous post on this topic and I suggest you read that.

Wolfie · Post by **Wolfie** » Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:59 pm

I've read that, I disagree, but lets move on.

My problem is a lot of pepole say "more content" but when you list what you think there is more of there is not, an exsample, many think morrowind has WAY more types of amour then skyrim, this is not so.
Hard counts so that Yes morrowind had "more" but only in the terms of 5 or so more for MOST things, somethings do have mert, like wepons. but most of them are no where near the number pepole act like they are.

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