Back to Morrowind

[skooma steve]

Thus in that same vein, Morrowind is an exception to the rule. Most problems, most wrong notes, still the best.

Then again I'm not sure whether I even agree that Morrowind has the MOST problems. They all have their idiosyncrasies.

[EarlJ]

cartoonish hyperbole


What I'm really excited about are the improvements and streamlining coming in TES 6:

In games past there were spears and short swords, long swords... then blunt, blade, blah blah... but in 6, they'll be combined into a single "Weapon" skill. Yay! Better yet, to ease new players into an RPG the weapons will automatically adjust themselves depending on the proximity of the enemy you're attacking... up close, you swing swing swing, but if if the bad guy is further away the swing will produce a projectile. This ensures that, by looking at an NPC and pushing a button, you're sure to kill them, no thought or switching weapons necessary!

Similarly, it's too confusing to players to have Light, Heavy, and/or Medium armors, so they'll be combined into a single "Armor" skill. And hand in hand with that, forget greaves and pauldrons and gauntlets and all that nonsense! We'll just get single "Armor" items that comprise the full suit because mix-and-match armor is the Devil!

While the armor (and consequently clothing) optimizations above will allow more NPCs to be displayed, there's also another tweak to further boost performance -- all characters PC and NPC will have truncated hands composed of a single finger. This will explain why people are only able to wear one ring at a time!


/cartoonish hyperbole


I liked the variety of Morrowind. More weapon types, more armor types, more armor pieces... you just had more options when dressing up your dollies. I mean, uh... *cough* You could look all cool with your one Indoril pauldron and your one steel pauldron to go with your one Glass gauntlet and one Chitin gauntlet... Also, I miss throwing knives and throwing stars. Not that great, but they looked cool. My point is that I don't like the general trend toward simplification. It makes me feel more 'boxed in' for lack of a better expression. Although they did bring back Pickpocket for Skyrim, so who knows?

[Wolfie]

Speaking plainly, Skyrim is if not tired VERY close in terms of amour types you can wear, with morrowind, we did a whole big count on the forums about it.

[Mattbott]

again, it's taste not quality

morrowind is a 1960s sports car with no roof, no cd player, dodgy safety record and needs tuning every sunday or it will stall on a cold morning

skyrim is a 2011 saloon, with vibrating seats, air con, sat nav, air bags and dvd player in the back for passengers

which car you choose is down to what sort of a driver you are at the time. You should not be criticised for wanting to drive either, or both, because your opinion is your own. If you enjoy the benefits from both, then good for you

[Pavouk106]

cartoonish hyperbole
/cartoonish hyperbole

... My point is that I don't like the general trend toward simplification. ...

Your hyperbole is great.

General trend - simplification. That is the point I wanted to tell. I don't like simplification, I like complex games, that are not so easy to play (again - this is about complexity, not difficulty).

[Imperfect Three]

I like to play games leisurely which is why I don't like Morrowind. I just want to start my console up and play, not get stuck every five minutes like.. If I choose this now the rest of the game may be ruined. Although I believe Skyrim has way more choice than Morrowind. There were only ever three options with a quest: Do the quest, don't do the quest or kill the quest giver. There was no extra way to do it, but Skyrim gives you an option with most quests. There's usually a good, evil and neutral option (Neutral usually being skipping the quest entirely though).

[EarlJ]

There was no extra way to do it, but Skyrim gives you an option with most quests.

*nod*

Like how you don't have to become a

Spoiler:

werewolf

if you want to do the Companions questline. You know, a one-time thing that then forces you to decide... Do I never want to be a vampire? Or do I want to never be able to become a

Spoiler:

werewolf

again? Oh wait, that's exactly what happens.

That's probably the most obnoxious example I can think of offhand, although Dawnguard does make it more than a one-time prospect.

And re: armor types.
Fur AND hide?! Color me impressed. Honestly though I wouldn't be surprised if it was pretty close... it just seems much less given the fewer number of pieces that compose a full suit. And hypocritically (because the skill didn't exist in Morrowind), I tend to think of Skyrim's armor as those being player-made, which is obviously smaller than the overall pool. The player-made aspect also makes everything seem much more available, so you generally don't play around as much with your armor. In Morrowind, I recall having to scavenge together a suit and cycling out pieces much more often as I ran across new bits and bobs.

Although if you wanted to make fun of me on this point, it would be far to say "Netch Leather AND Boiled Netch Leather... stop the presses!"

I'll admit the nostalgia is more about impressions than facts. But when it comes to preferences, the ground we're standing on is all ultimately founded on opinion. It's not that I'd say one is better than the other... the passage of time and evolution of gaming makes that a real apples and oranges thing... it's just that some aspects of Morrowind capture the imagination (or whatever stock phrase you prefer) in a way that Skyrim just doesn't, or at least doesn't do as well. And that's not a condemnation of Skyrim so much as it is praise for Morrowind... they're both very, very good games.

[MoncarBelvani]

Ahhh, the smell of elitism. Sure, Bethesda could put together a game for "hardcore" players that would please 12 people on the planet. And then they'd go bankrupt. Or, they could market a game that appeals to the "masses". And make a profit, which allows them to continue making games.

They wouldn't go bankrupt, they would just make less profit. Bethesda have sold their soul for a quick buck and that annoys me.

[Pavouk106]

Just now, I stumbled upon the thread called Dumbing games down. It may be worth reading (I haven't read it through yet), the subject may be almost the same as we discuss here.

[dzio]

There is no way you can "like" a off note song, there are some notes that are just bad combined, this is true for 99.9% of the population the others having something going on with their ears


Now liking a diffreint song just cause is a diffreint story, but I'm talking about liking the song thats out of tune, wrong key, wrong notes, wrong words etc.
No way to like it it wont sound "good" to the ear. not humanily possible baring some weird thing with the ears I've never heard of

Wolfie, you're basically saying that it's impossible to like Morrowind, because it has so many flaws and we are all blinded by nostalgia and refuse to admitt that the game is crap, or there's something wrong with our brains. Unless you meant something else but got a bit lost and carried away with the metaphor...

Anyway, that's BS, plain and simple. First of all, if people only enjoyed perfect things, we'd all be constantly miserable and nobody would ever like anything. There are flaws in everything and yet we still manage to have fun, somehow. Second of all, not everyone has been playing Morrowind for a decade and has rose-coloured glasses on, because they were eleven when they started and it was an important part of their growing up. I'm almost thirty, I've been playing Morrowind for less than two years, Oblivion for a couple of months and I didn't have a chance to try Skyrim yet. Where exactly does my nostaligic bias come from? Do you honestly think that every single hardcore Morrowind fan looks at the game and says "Ah, it reminds me of when I was young and the world was fresh and full of wonder..."? I, for one, see that the game is flawed, I even mentioned several of them in this topic (like every NPC having the same lines, which you claim is something we all choose to ignore). I'm just having great fun with it and the flaws usually don't bug me at all. Is that so hard to imagine?

Look at what Imperfect Three wrote - (s)he likes Skyrim more because it can be played more casually. I, on the other hand, dislike casual approach in RPGs. I could tell him/her all about the joys of RPGs that pull you in for months and (s)he could explain to me why it's so great to be able to blow off some steam in half an hour without feeling like you're rushing things. All it means is that we're going to have different games in our library, not that one of us is right and the other is wrong.

You also admit that Skyrim has flaws (though some that you mention seem laughably minor to me - seriously, chickens?) - why can't you just accept that for some people the flaws of Skyrim or Oblivion make the newer games less enjoyable than Morrowind, because while it has other flaws they and unimportant and barely noticeable for those people?

TL;DR - I like Morrowind, you like Skyrim. Stop trying to convince me that I can't possibly like it and we're all just a bunch of TES hipsters. It's not true.

[philfredobob]

i felt very involved throughout it

Ok, I just had to comment on this because it's my biggest issue with Oblivion. You aren't involved. At all. The story is all about Martin, you're just some guy who happened to be there. Notice who they're all cheering for at Bruma. As far as the plot is concerned, you're just nameless NPC #453.

Thats just what i expected you to say , and yes , i felt more involved because of that .. because some deity hadnt thrust my position upon me , i wasnt born to save the world , i chose to aid him in doing so (at least thats what i established , maybe someone knows otherwise , but as far as i know , Martin was the ''Chosen one'' )
i dont care who gets the credit , anyways , whos statue do they build in Bruma ?
i dont want the story to be all about me , it puts me off , makes the game feel boring , in Oblivion martin had the spotlight , and i was happy it wasnt me

[Pavouk106]

i felt very involved throughout it

Ok, I just had to comment on this because it's my biggest issue with Oblivion. You aren't involved. At all. The story is all about Martin, you're just some guy who happened to be there. Notice who they're all cheering for at Bruma. As far as the plot is concerned, you're just nameless NPC #453.

Thats just what i expected you to say , and yes , i felt more involved because of that .. because some deity hadnt thrust my position upon me , i wasnt born to save the world , i chose to aid him in doing so (at least thats what i established , maybe someone knows otherwise , but as far as i know , Martin was the ''Chosen one'' )
i dont care who gets the credit , anyways , whos statue do they build in Bruma ?
i dont want the story to be all about me , it puts me off , makes the game feel boring , in Oblivion martin had the spotlight , and i was happy it wasnt me

Well, in Morrowind it was almost like that too. Some Nerevarine. Nobody cared for you. You were that "world hero", but nobody knew that (well, at least halfway through story - that's where I'm now - so ssshh, no spoilers ). And even more - they may like you in Ald-ruhn (Redoran) and FG, but they will hate you at Sadrith Mora for that.

Maybe we will find what should TES: VI look like in this thread

[Wolfie]

Wolfie, you're basically saying that it's impossible to like Morrowind, because it has so many flaws and we are all blinded by nostalgia and refuse to admitt that the game is crap, or there's something wrong with our brains. Unless you meant something else but got a bit lost and carried away with the metaphor...

My point was that he should use another mertophoire as what he is saying dont make sense.

Anyway, that's BS, plain and simple. First of all, if people only enjoyed perfect things, we'd all be constantly miserable and nobody would ever like anything. There are flaws in everything and yet we still manage to have fun, somehow.

let me recorded something for you
This is not BS, your not going to like this.

http://soundcloud.com/woflie/lew-reco

Second of all, not everyone has been playing Morrowind for a decade and has rose-coloured glasses on, because they were eleven when they started and it was an important part of their growing up. I'm almost thirty, I've been playing Morrowind for less than two years, Oblivion for a couple of months and I didn't have a chance to try Skyrim yet.

Again I said if we could play each of them "first" not that it was becuse you played it was a kid but rather that you played it first, and i did not say every one I said most.

Where exactly does my nostaligic bias come from? Do you honestly think that every single hardcore Morrowind fan looks at the game and says "Ah, it reminds me of when I was young and the world was fresh and full of wonder..."? I, for one, see that the game is flawed, I even mentioned several of them in this topic (like every NPC having the same lines, which you claim is something we all choose to ignore). I'm just having great fun with it and the flaws usually don't bug me at all. Is that so hard to imagine?

No but then you refuse to ignore bugs in the other two and tear them apart, you hate how you need a compass to find everything, half the time in morrowind you need the internet to find things.

Look at what Imperfect Three wrote - (s)he likes Skyrim more because it can be played more casually. I, on the other hand, dislike casual approach in RPGs. I could tell him/her all about the joys of RPGs that pull you in for months and (s)he could explain to me why it's so great to be able to blow off some steam in half an hour without feeling like you're rushing things. All it means is that we're going to have different games in our library, not that one of us is right and the other is wrong.

Thats fine and all, I dont mind you liking morrowind what I mind is how evrey single person ehre can post flaws for each game and morrowind would have many "ignored" that bring the others down big time. becuse we should "just ignore them thats minor" but for the other games? OH NO I CANT IGNORTE THAT!

You also admit that Skyrim has flaws (though some that you mention seem laughably minor to me - seriously, chickens?) - why can't you just accept that for some people the flaws of Skyrim or Oblivion make the newer games less enjoyable than Morrowind, because while it has other flaws they and unimportant and barely noticeable for those people?

Becuse they are ingoring some of those flaws in morrowind becuse it is morrowind

TL;DR - I like Morrowind, you like Skyrim. Stop trying to convince me that I can't possibly like it and we're all just a bunch of TES hipsters. It's not true.

you can like it, but when you get in to "We can ignore morrowinds problems but we CANT ignore Skyrims, majior point loss" I'm afired I weant to see this list and see how many are simmlar in skyrim and morrowind but morrowind gets a free ride on that one

as I said most I see post how something like NPC's with the same topic RUINS Skyrim and makes it almost unplayable but not so for Morrowind

if you where to list them how many would be the "same" something morrowind dont even have, or something that is worse in morrowind but still not a "Major problem" for no other reasson then its morrowind

Go on ahead, post all your problems with all of them, watch what happens

[Glyre]

I would assume that a main reason why Morrowind's flaws are ignored and yet those of Oblivion and Skyrim are brought to attention is because Morrowind is quite an old game by comparison. No doubt some of those things weren't really flaws in those days or if they were they were more excusable because it was one of the first games to explore some of those concepts. Not to say that Morrowind is flawless, for it certainly isn't, but I would saw that it's perfectly acceptable to excuse certain things in it, say, a lack of dialogue variety (admittedly though what dialogue there was was quite substantial) but then complain about it in Skyrim, simply because by the time of Skyrim Bethesda should presumably have learned better and be aware of what fans would want.

I wouldn't mind if my TV from 1950 only showed black-and-white. I would mind if my 2012 TV, created in a time when it is known that people like color and that it is an option, only showed black-and-white.

[Wolfie]

I could watch a 2012 show in black and white, if 1950 shows could be ignore then I feel a 2012 should also be, other wise you have to count both

dont think you should pick and choice at all like that.

Even then your willing to excuse morrowind becuse of "when it was made"
But what about the fact that Skyrim is fully voiced, mutiple voices with thosuands of lines recored, way hardar to get the "deapth" of the older game, as the odler game you just type it, here you have to recored it.

But pepole DONT forgive that, they attack it.

[Glyre]

It's not a matter of picking and choosing. It's a matter of taking into account the age of what you're looking at and forming your opinion in light of that age.

A question for you: Should societies of the past be looked at as backwards/barbaric and judged by modern standards or should we look at them in light of their own time and beliefs?

Regarding your edit: Yes, and what dialogue needs to be typed now is significantly less, and as there are various voice actors it seems an even graver error that two different guard voice actors should need to record the very same lines. The actors just come in and read the lines—the manpower put into typing things up is the same now as it was in Morrowind's day.

[Wolfie]

It's not a matter of picking and choosing. It's a matter of taking into account the age of what you're looking at and forming your opinion in light of that age.

A question for you: Should societies of the past be looked at as backwards/barbaric and judged by modern standards or should we look at them in light of their own time and beliefs?

We should, but we should also look at todays and ALSO know it has limts


Skyrim CANT have as much dialouge as morrowind, becuse its by speaking and has mutiple vorices each time, why cant Skyrim get a pass on it but morrowind can?

[dzio]

Wolfie, for the love of all that's holy, stop to think for a while before you start writing... You're acusing fans of Morrowind of something no one is saying here, it's like you've created this imaginary hateful person in your head and you're trying to convince us that we're like that. You're doing the same thing with your critique of Morrowind - for example: no, I don't need the wiki to find everything in Morrowind, that's you, Wolfie. You seem to believe that we all had the same experience with the game as you, and since you didn't like it, we must all be lying posers.

I'm not ignoring Morrowind's flaws "because it's Morrowind", I'm doing it because they really don't annoy me. I'm not saying that a tuneless screeching is pleasant to listen, I'm saying that people CAN honestly not care about flaws, not just pretend. What would be anyone's reason for doing that anyway? Is this like pretending to like the popular girl's jokes so that you don't become an outcast? This ain't highschool, buddy.

Since you're so fond of metaphors, let me exlain it with one: imagine two books set in the same universe. The first one is more action-oriented, there's a lot of fighting and really interesting characters. The second one continues the story, but gives more details about the world, its politics and history. Some people will love the action in the first book and addition of historical information in the second one will bore them. They will point out how the second book is slower and how it annoys them that they have to wait to find out what's going on with the characters. And they will be right. Others will say that the second one is much better, because they finally have the full picture and the explanation of what's going on behind the scenes. They will say that the first book was less mature and the lack of background information made character's motivations unclear. And they will be right too.

And that's the whole point! No one (other than maybe you, that is) is claiming that one game's problems are impossible to ignore, but in the other one they don't matter at all, and that should be true for everyone. I'm trying to tell you that I am annoyed by some things and not by the others, and I'm trying to explain why. It's my opinion and I'm not claiming everyone should feel the same way (though in some cases the opposite opinion is as hard for me to understand as the fact that someone doesn't like chocolate-chip ice-cream. I mean, HOW?! ). I don't get it, what the hell do you have such a huge problem with here?

[Wolfie]

Wolfie, for the love of all that's holy, stop to think for a while before you start writing... You're acusing fans of Morrowind of something no one is saying here, it's like you've created this imaginary hateful person in your head and you're trying to convince us that we're like that. You're doing the same thing with your critique of Morrowind - for example: no, I don't need the wiki to find everything in Morrowind, that's you, Wolfie.

Your doing the same thing your acusing me of I've NEVER used the wiki to find anything in morrowind, once again I'm talking about when you go on forms and someone ask how do I find something, pepole dont say go talk to this guy, or go read the jouirnal they send them to the wiki

You seem to believe that we all had the same experience with the game as you, and since you didn't like it, we must all be lying posers.

And ou seem to belie any "problems" I'm talking about our things I did when its NOT.
Never did I say anyone was liying once again your saying I'm doing things I am not.

I'm not ignoring Morrowind's flaws "because it's Morrowind", I'm doing it because they really don't annoy me. I'm not saying that a tuneless screeching is pleasant to listen, I'm saying that people CAN honestly not care about flaws, not just pretend. What would be anyone's reason for doing that anyway? Is this like pretending to like the popular girl's jokes so that you don't become an outcast? This ain't highschool, buddy.

same reasson we think cartoons now days are not funny, or we think this was better back then or we think that the world gets worse with evrey genration.

And that's the whole point! No one (other than maybe you, that is) is claiming that one game's problems are impossible to ignore, but in the other one they don't matter at all, and that should be true for everyone. I'm trying to tell you that I am annoyed by some things and not by the others, and I'm trying to explain why. It's my opinion and I'm not claiming everyone should feel the same way (though in some cases the opposite opinion is as hard for me to understand as the fact that someone doesn't like chocolate-chip ice-cream. I mean, HOW?! ). I don't get it, what the hell do you have such a huge problem with here?

You say your not doing it, but do me a favor post the probems with each and I will show you 9 times out of ten, you will "ignore" things on morrowind becuse its an "older game" but not think Skyrim alsohas limts for things but you dont ignore that


As for the books, I GEWT that part, its when pepoile talk about the flaws, "oh we can forgive the clifracers" (enter creature here form the other two) "This cant be forgiving, this is going on the list"

NOT saying this is what YOU would put on the list, its just an exsample, DONT pull me saying this is what you think cause I'm not saying it is

[dzio]

If you're not basing your opinion of what everyne else's experience with Morrowind is like on your own, then where are you getting all this? And how many times do I have to say that I don't care about some things that annoy you (or maybe not you, but some other people, who may or may not be real, I'm confused here) just because they honestly don't annoy me, not because it's an older game, or because I played it first, or because I irrationally hate Skyrim? And that I'm less enthusiastic about the newer TES games because of other reasons that the ones you keep bringing up? And...

You know, this is pointless. Either I've completely lost the ability to form coherent sentences, or you have some problems with understanding what you're reading. Or you're deliberately misunderstanding what I'm saying just to keep the argument going. Either way I don't see the point of continuing this "discussion". Let's just agree to disagree. I will keep playing Morrowind and having heaps of fun, you will keep thinking it's overrated and I'm a TES hipster and Skyrim-hater.

[Glyre]

Wolfie, opinions can be perfectly illogical. Dzio was talking about his own opinion—if he (or anyone, for that matter) is bothered by something in Skyrim but not the very same thing in Morrowind that's his prerogative. He's not preaching his opinion as gospel or saying that anyone else should hold it. I think you're allowing yourself to be too worked up by opinions.

That being said, I will follow him in agreeing to disagree, as that seems to be the best way to proceed in this situation.

[Wolfie]

If you're not basing your opinion of what everyne else's experience with Morrowind is like on your own, then where are you getting all this? And how many times do I have to say that I don't care about some things that annoy you (or maybe not you, but some other people, who may or may not be real, I'm confused here) just because they honestly don't annoy me, not because it's an older game, or because I played it first, or because I irrationally hate Skyrim? And that I'm less enthusiastic about the newer TES games because of other reasons that the ones you keep bringing up? And...

You know, this is pointless. Either I've completely lost the ability to form coherent sentences, or you have some problems with understanding what you're reading. Or you're deliberately misunderstanding what I'm saying just to keep the argument going. Either way I don't see the point of continuing this "discussion". Let's just agree to disagree. I will keep playing Morrowind and having heaps of fun, you will keep thinking it's overrated and I'm a TES hipster and Skyrim-hater.

Morrowind is NOT overrated

We can agree to disagree but I do want to say I got all of this form my years on the forums and seeing list of whats "wrong" with each game, and what pepole do when pepole are "lost in morrowind" (send them to the wiki)

The problem is not you, its that your not understand my point, you keep on thinking I'm saying that all of this happen to me, when it did not

you keep on thinking I'm saying morrowind is overrated when its NOT.
etc

it may be my fault it may be yours, most likely both

We can agree to disagree, for evrey one else here is my thing plan as day since no one seems to want to do this


Look at what you "hate" or dont like about iv or v, and then look at iii and what you forgive for what ever reasson, honestly think

Why do they not have as much dialouge? why do they have less items? things likie that
and you will notice a lot of it you forgive one one but not not the other, ask your self why that is, is there a reasson?

[dzio]

@Glyre - point of order: her opinion, not his.

@Wolfie - of course there is a reason: it's not the same things. Stuff that annoys me in Oblivion are some things that were changed, not the things that are the same (and equally flawed) in both games. And notice that I said "some" - other changes were great, like the ability to poison weapons or the new system of sneak attacks. I actually started a topic in Mod-Morrowind section a while ago to look for mods that would make those aspects of Morrowind more Oblivion-like.

But that's just my reason and you are free to disagree with that. Peace?

[Wolfie]

you keep saying this but I REALLY want to see your "dislikes"
and see if this is true, half the pepole dont notice in till you point it out.

you dotn have to, but I'm just saying I'd be willing to bet you dont notice you do it


Like I'm going to do it, but its going take time to think bout it

[Glyre]

Sorry about that dzio!