The blades WTF

[Br3admax]

The Blades are terrible in this game, Paarthurnax isn't, so we should let Paarthurnax live. But the hero inside me says, chop the Dov's neck, and feast on his soul.

[Hissien]

^There are many kinds of heroes, channel one that is not a nord bezerker if you want to resist the urge to kill him .

[Pilaf The Defiler]

The Blades are terrible in this game, Paarthurnax isn't, so we should let Paarthurnax live. But the hero inside me says, chop the Dov's neck, and feast on his soul.

Sounds like the hero in you is a Tsaesci who thirsts for dragon blood.

[Sansreal]

What was all that talk about how killing him wouldn't put the souls of those he destroyed to rest?
That is entirely beyond the point. Justice doesn't care about putting souls to rest. Justice cares that a wrong was done, and must be rectified, if possible, and the offender must be punished.
There is no statute of limitations for murder.
There is no expiration date on vengeance.

Spoiler:

"Revenge is a dish best served cold."

[Alnevar Odai]

What was all that talk about how killing him wouldn't put the souls of those he destroyed to rest?
That is entirely beyond the point. Justice doesn't care about putting souls to rest. Justice cares that a wrong was done, and must be rectified, if possible, and the offender must be punished.
There is no statute of limitations for murder.
There is no expiration date on vengeance.

Spoiler:

"Revenge is a dish best served cold."

So you would become a murderer to stop a murderer? And thereby incite retaliation upon yourself? And would their vengeance be justified?

[Mattbott]

justice is vengeance on an equitable basis, in order to temper it morally and provide a foundation for society to deal with pain

[merry]

Sometimes I think the Dovahkin is just another Alduin in mortal disguise. He's not eating the souls of the fallen mortals but of the fallen dragons to gain power and all dragons that stand against him he will slaughter mercilessly until all are either dead or submit to his power.

Hm... sounds familiar to me. >.<

[Br3admax]

There's a difference though, the Dovahkiin is doing exactly what Akatosh made him to do, Alduin is not. If Akatosh/Lorkhan wants me to kill Dragons so be it. And every Dragon you kill makes Akatosh that much more powerful because he gets the Dragon Souls back.

[merry]

And I still don't think that the Dovahkin's purpose is to kill dragons. If anything - and even that is doubtable - the purpose is to defeat and stop Alduin in this specific case (I mean our case^^).
Apart from that we don't know why we are here, only what people tell us. The rest is entirely up to us.


"... who will bring light thereby to that mortal idea that brings [the Gods] great joy, that is, freedom, which even the Heavens do not truly know, ...."

[Br3admax]

The entire Dragonborn purpose is to kill Dragons, otherwise we would have a choice to absorb their souls or not. While I like Dragons there is no reason for them to be on Mundas if they just want to take over. Akatosh no longer needs them, so I will kill all the Dragons who attack me, that's like me sparing bandits just because I don't know my true purpose. Attack me, and you will die, simple.

[House of the Wolf]

Nvm.

Let Paarthy live.

[merry]

The entire Dragonborn purpose is to kill Dragons, otherwise we would have a choice to absorb their souls or not. While I like Dragons there is no reason for them to be on Mundas if they just want to take over. Akatosh no longer needs them, so I will kill all the Dragons who attack me, that's like me sparing bandits just because I don't know my true purpose. Attack me, and you will die, simple.

Oh, I was not talking about dragons that attack me. Dragons that attack me or a village are sure to die.

And the humans want to take over, the elves want to take over... . So with the dragons we have one more force who wants to take over. They were there first after all. And it's no reason to kill them all. That's kind of a Ysgramor/Snowelf way. I'm not so happy with that for me

[Br3admax]

Ysgramor wanted to be friends with the elves, Skyrim was originally named Elves' Land, by the Nords. The elves betrayed the Nords, that is why Nords hate elves.

[merry]

Ysgramor wanted to be friends with the elves, Skyrim was originally named Elves' Land, by the Nords. The elves betrayed the Nords, that is why Nords hate elves.

The point is: did _all_ elves do that? Each and every last one, every child, every farmer, every priest? Just like with the Ayleids... from the ingame books it is at least being hinted that not every one of the Ayleids stood against the humans.
Just like Paarthy says that he was not the only dragon that finally rebelled against Alduin, there were several of them siding with the humans.

In each of those wars there were agressors and there were people of that very same race siding with the victims. Do you think all High elves support the Thalmor? Or are there at least some who share Lanethil's pov? And are there maybe some who saw their neighbors being 'purged' and therefore keep their mouth and eyes shut tight? It is always the same with dictators: there are those who support willingly, those who just tag along, those who look the other way and those who oppose. Some who oppose do so not from the beginning, because they realize late that what they do might be wrong.
And to me personally it is wrong to persecute those who had the courage to oppose.
Time and again it was the zeal of the victims, their wish for revenge that led to at least as much bloodshed as the original war and I'm sure it didn't only affect the guilty.
And now we even take revenge for something that didn't even happen in our lifetime? I think I should maybe tell the Companions about Gelebor, so they can end what Ysgramor started ^^

[Wolfie]

the only problem is your logic works in our world cause almost no one is going to "outlive" evrey one they killed\hurt becuse we all live close o one anotrher, we CANT say what we would do if we could have somehting live for thousands of years becuse we DONT have anything like that

[merry]

the only problem is your logic works in our world cause almost no one is going to "outlive" evrey one they killed\hurt becuse we all live close o one anotrher, we CANT say what we would do if we could have somehting live for thousands of years becuse we DONT have anything like that

The point I was trying to make has nothing to do with long lives. To me Paarthurnax is the Stauffenberg of Alduin's regime (execpt ofc that Paarthy didn't get executed for a failed attempt at ending Alduins life, even though Alduin says that he will kill Paarthurnax, if he gets him, in the scene from the past you witness ) He supported Alduin until he realized what he was supporting there. And then he did his best to bring him down. If Stauffenberg had survived til after WW2, would he have been executed for his former crimes or would he have been granted mercy because of his later actions?

Just as in every war there were those who opposed the dictators (I mean ingame now ^^), but unfortunately it seems like they were all killed too later, because the former victims wanted revenge, long after the war was actually over. The Last Ayleid King, The snow elves in King Harald's time (if those opposed I do not know ofc, but the last remnants of the snow elves were still hunted in King Haralds time, a long time after Ysgramor and the Night of Tears, I'm sure there were some among them that hadn't even been born at that time). So it's all about vengeance no matter what?

[Wolfie]

the difference is your saying that they punish the people for it, the snow elf’s, the Ayleids etc the difference is this is ONE person who DID do those things, we are punishing himf ro what HE did not what other dragons did.

Its about paying for your crimes, yes or no do you believe someone should be able to get away with murdering thousands? maybe even millions? and not even just murder but in sadistic ways?
Because they helped stop the bad guy “maybe” (as in he joined us and what role he played is unknown for the most part)


dose that excuse what he did? Peoples deaths can be forgiving just like that?

So I go on a killing spree turn around and help with something and then I should not be punished, it fixs all? one thing fixes it all?

[merry]

the difference is your saying that they punish the people for it, the snow elf’s, the Ayleids etc the difference is this is ONE person who DID do those things, we are punishing himf ro what HE did not what other dragons did.

Its about paying for your crimes, yes or no do you believe someone should be able to get away with murdering thousands? maybe even millions? and not even just murder but in sadistic ways?
Because they helped stop the bad guy “maybe” (as in he joined us and what role he played is unknown for the most part)


dose that excuse what he did? Peoples deaths can be forgiving just like that?

So I go on a killing spree turn around and help with something and then I should not be punished, it fixs all? one thing fixes it all?

No, it fixes nothing. It is a change of heart, it is called remorse, it is what makes room for mercy, if not forgiveness. I can not forgive because he did nothing to me. I was under the impression that he had been forgiven by the tongues, but ofc I can't know, because I couldn't ask them. But I can grant mercy if I feel that someone deserves it, which is what I feel about Paarthurnax.
The Blades don't go for mercy and they assume that the ancient Akaviri have not forgiven, nor would they show mercy either. To me that's a poor state of mind, because of the reasons I pointed out in my posts.
I would accept that from someone who has actually suffered, because ofc you can't expect mercy and forgiveness when someone is still in pain or desperation.. even though there are some who can grant forgiveness or mercy even in such a situation. But the Blades never even saw a dragon, much less suffered under his 'tyranny'. They swore an oath to be unforgiving merciless fanatics. Alright, but not with my help.

[Wolfie]

No, it fixes nothing. It is a change of heart, it is called remorse, it is what makes room for mercy, if not forgiveness. I can not forgive because he did nothing to me. I was under the impression that he had been forgiven by the tongues, but ofc I can't know, because I couldn't ask them. But I can grant mercy if I feel that someone deserves it, which is what I feel about Paarthurnax.
The Blades don't go for mercy and they assume that the ancient Akaviri have not forgiven, nor would they show mercy either. To me that's a poor state of mind, because of the reasons I pointed out in my posts.
I would accept that from someone who has actually suffered, because ofc you can't expect mercy and forgiveness when someone is still in pain or desperation.. even though there are some who can grant forgiveness or mercy even in such a situation. But the Blades never even saw a dragon, much less suffered under his 'tyranny'. They swore an oath to be unforgiving merciless fanatics. Alright, but not with my help.

do you think its possible for a "group" to take action on someone who has "wronged" the group?

[merry]

do you think its possible for a "group" to take action on someone who has "wronged" the group?

Possible for sure. But if I'd see it as 'justified' or 'righteous' action depends on the circumstances. Under the given circumstances I do not see it as justified in the case of Paarhurnax.

[Wolfie]

So let me guess, its okay to do as long as it dont invlove the coolest npc in game right?

If P was not half as "cool" this would not even be a debate.

give me one way his is diffreint this this one

A man who was in WW II who by him self killedf thousnads easily, turns over and gives names and what not, but many countrys still want him to pay for what he did, he has out lived all of his victms, and their familys as he killed anyone related to those pepole.

Nobody is related, and it takes many years, so many in fact that most of those countrys no longer the same, smallaer ones joined together, and fused with bigger ones etc and he is all but "forgoten" in history.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

What was all that talk about how killing him wouldn't put the souls of those he destroyed to rest?
That is entirely beyond the point. Justice doesn't care about putting souls to rest. Justice cares that a wrong was done, and must be rectified, if possible, and the offender must be punished.
There is no statute of limitations for murder.
There is no expiration date on vengeance.

Spoiler:

"Revenge is a dish best served cold."

So you would become a murderer to stop a murderer? And thereby incite retaliation upon yourself? And would their vengeance be justified?

Killing isn't always murder, you know.

[merry]

So let me guess, its okay to do as long as it dont invlove the coolest npc in game right?

If P was not half as "cool" this would not even be a debate.

give me one way his is diffreint this this one

A man who was in WW II who by him self killedf thousnads easily, turns over and gives names and what not, but many countrys still want him to pay for what he did, he has out lived all of his victms, and their familys as he killed anyone related to those pepole.

Nobody is related, and it takes many years, so many in fact that most of those countrys no longer the same, smallaer ones joined together, and fused with bigger ones etc and he is all but "forgoten" in history.

Well, Paarth is cool, no doubt. ^^ But from the debate I hope you could see that it's not about 'cool'. I think Esbern is cool too. He was the reason I personally started thinking about it at all, because I wanted to know if I can somehow justify killing Paarthy and sticking to Esbern (as much as anyone needs to justify anything at all in a game... from a very immersed perspective, I mean.) and I found I couldn't, much as I like Esbern.

I already gave you an example of someone in real life. And as I said, it depends. Ofc most people just change to the winning side and try to minimize consequences by 'helping' the winner.
But what of someone who from the winning side turned over to the 'losing' side, not because he feared revenge, but because he thought it was the right thing to do, because he felt remorse about what he had done and then actually makes the difference, so the 'losing side' gets a chance at winning at last?
Is he still guilty of his crimes? Sure. Does he deserve mercy? In my eyes he does.

That is not a general thing about everyone who helps out after he has lost anyway and has only the chance: help or die (or go to prison). It is about the _rare_ occasion where someone could just stay where is is and hardly be endangered at all, but instead chooses to risk his life to help the victims, without calculating his odds or if he survives to see the outcome, just because he thinks it's the right thing to do.

[Wolfie]

That is not a general thing about everyone who helps out after he has lost anyway and has only the chance: help or die (or go to prison). It is about the _rare_ occasion where someone could just stay where is is and hardly be endangered at all, but instead chooses to risk his life to help the victims, without calculating his odds or if he survives to see the outcome, just because he thinks it's the right thing to do.

Stop right there, we do not know WHY he turned, your asuming its cause he felt guity, but we do not know, for all we know he did it so he could lead the drasgons instead of Aduin, knowing he cant be aduin one on one.
For all we know, he could of messed up some where and THEN turned, knowing he had nothing left there, maybe he was scared besue lower draghons where working to take his spot, maybe he KNEW that the tide was going to turn and decide to go to the winning team (The God could of said "I'm teaching them shouts with or with out you, join them or die)

[merry]

That is not a general thing about everyone who helps out after he has lost anyway and has only the chance: help or die (or go to prison). It is about the _rare_ occasion where someone could just stay where is is and hardly be endangered at all, but instead chooses to risk his life to help the victims, without calculating his odds or if he survives to see the outcome, just because he thinks it's the right thing to do.

Stop right there, we do not know WHY he turned, your asuming its cause he felt guity, but we do not know, for all we know he did it so he could lead the drasgons instead of Aduin, knowing he cant be aduin one on one.
For all we know, he could of messed up some where and THEN turned, knowing he had nothing left there, maybe he was scared besue lower draghons where working to take his spot, maybe he KNEW that the tide was going to turn and decide to go to the winning team (The God could of said "I'm teaching them shouts with or with out you, join them or die)

Huh, well, sure we know nothing, we were not there. But from what we could read and hear, the humans were being crushed by the dragons and then Paarthy (who pitied men) was approached by Kynareth to teach them the Thu'um, so the humans finally could have a chance at fighting back (not winning, only at fighting back). This btw is something not even the Blades doubt. They only say it doesn't count.
Delphine also says that you must kill him, because she thinks he will go back to Alduin before the end. Which he doesn't. Esbern is the one who explains about the oath and why they still want you to kill him even after Alduin is dead and he didn't betray you.

Edit:
Oh and if you're refering to teaching the dragons the Way of the Voice and think that is why he turned, the Way of the Voice did not exist back then. That is his goal _now_. And Odahviing doesn't seem too troubled by it, so I guess he doesn't fear Paarhturnay is going to pose a threat.