The blades WTF

[Wolfie]

1. If you can overcome your bipolarness, somehow, i would trust you.

How would you know I did?
I dont go out to prove it, stay away form pepole, thats not overcoming thats hidding form it overcoming it would be doing things and being able to fight it,

2. Yes because Dagon always says we can trust him, oh wait, he doesn't

But my point is you would not trust him so why trust someone on their word? becusze they say so?

3. Tiber Septim knew about Dragons, and had a Dragon. Cyrus "killed" him, but he is still there.

He knew of dragons but what did he know? dragonlings where thogut to BE dragons in dagerfall but they are not, so did he know the full story?
did he belive the storys? maybe he felt they where just legends and while the creture was true the war was not?
did he even know the story of the war?

* And Esbern says that the Emperors always told the Blades to leave Paarthurnax alone, they knew about him.

when did he say this? excat place and qoute pelase, as well as context.

* And Tiber Septim had/has CHIM, dispute it if you want, he knows more than we do.

AFTER words, not during the time he went to the graybeards and all that, he did not gain "more then we know" form the get go.

[Br3admax]

Tiber Septim changed it to where he always had CHIM. He had a true Dragon, not a Dragonling, Cyrus "killed" him. Esbern talks about Paarthurnax if you ask him. Go right now, talk to him.

[Wolfie]

Tiber Septim changed it to where he always had CHIM. He had a true Dragon, not a Dragonling, Cyrus "killed" him. Esbern talks about Paarthurnax if you ask him. Go right now, talk to him.

#1 like to see some facts on this
#2 you miss the point what they "knew" back then was WRONG so what else did they have wrong or not really know of?
#3 Sadily I cant my Skyrim disk is dmanged beyoned repair, Esban talks about paarthuranx But IIRC also says that most blades did not even know they used to be dragon hunters.

[Br3admax]

Does this look like a Dragonling?

[Wolfie]

Does this look like a Dragonling?

you STILL dont get it, I'm not saying he was a dragonling, just tht they thgout dragonlings WHERE dragons and they where not, so what else do they have wrong?

[Br3admax]

That's Tiber Septim's Dragon, so he at least knew. And I'll go get what Esbern said now, besides Esbern did believe.

[Wolfie]

That's Tiber Septim's Dragon, so he at least knew. And I'll go get what Esbern said now, besides Esbern did believe.

At least knew what? nothing says he knew anything at all, nothing says the dragon even told him anything, for all we know tiber felt the dragons war was nothing more then a legend and dragons where just intelegnt beings like us that where powerful.

IIRc Esbern also said "only the leaders know of our old oath" or words to that affect.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Does this look like a Dragonling?

you STILL dont get it, I'm not saying he was a dragonling, just tht they thgout dragonlings WHERE dragons and they where not, so what else do they have wrong?

From "Atlas of Dragons":

Nahfahlaar - Repeated alliances with mortal protectors which have prevented his elimination. His last known protector was the King Casimir II of Wayrest, which the Dragonguard successfully ended in 2E 369. He escaped and current location is unknown.

*Note that this book seems to have been written by a scribe of the Blades before the time of Redguard.

^ The Akaviri seem to believe the Dragon from Redguard was an actual Dragon, and they tended to know the difference. They had a ton of Dragon lore. I would assume the name "Nafaalilargus" is an Imperial or Akaviri corruption of is true name. Notice the similarity between "Argus" and "Arctus". Some people believe the battlemage Arctus actually did most of the taming of Dragons for Septim's armies. He was known to have enchanted some powerful Dragonbone artifacts, like the one that appears in Morrowind. Let's assume "Nafaalilargus" is the Dragon's way of saying he is Nahfahlaar who was bested by "Argus"/Arctus. Therefore, Nahfalarr-Arctus.

[merry]

Well if nothing else, I would rather trust Paarthurnax who helped me and trusts me and the Greybeards who from the start told me that they were there to guide me, but not do my bidding and were holding back with some things until I was ready, than the Blades who use me to slay Alduin and give them their temple and their order back, all the time pretending to revere me and give me anything I ask and they would "hold back nothing from me" ... and then turn on me, because I fail to play their "dark brother". No thanks. That's what _I_ call untrustworthy.

[Wolfie]

Well if nothing else, I would rather trust Paarthurnax who helped me and trusts me and the Greybeards who from the start told me that they were there to guide me, but not do my bidding and were holding back with some things until I was ready,

but thats it, if it was not for path you would not of done that, the gray ebards did NOT trust you, did NOT want to help, how often did path have to say "help him" or words like that?

than the Blades who use me to slay Alduin and give them their temple and their order back, all the time pretending to revere me and give me anything I ask and they would "hold back nothing from me" ... and then turn on me, because I fail to play their "dark brother". No thanks. That's what _I_ call untrustworthy.

except your wrong, they dont "revere you" thats you reading in to it, the blades took great care of you becuse you where helping them fight the dragons, your birthright is to kill the dragons, you no longer follow that right, no longer do what you where there to do should they trust you?

if an empror no longer rules and dose not care and walks away form resposabiltys should the blades still follow them?

they held nothing back form you, they did not turn on you, you turned on them.
Remember YOU not them went back on what you where to do, they stayed true to their cause, never once did they sasy "
you are above our oath"
they made it very clear from day #1 they are here to kill dragons and will help you do that.
anything else YOU put in to the game and is sinmply not there.

if you felt they treated you like a "king" they did not, the whole time they followed you becuse you are a "genreal" in the war agint the dragons, you did not do what you qwhere sopoused to, YOU betrayed them, and they did not even "betray you" even if what you said was logical, they dont deal with you, that not "betraying" they just wont have anything to do with you


just like if you kill path the graybeards wont have anything to do with you becuse YOU DONT FOLLOW THIER thing, its the EXCAT same thing.

[merry]

Well, I see we differ greatly here
Esbern saying "bah, dragons! they can be killed, the Blades killed many in their older days as dragonhunters!" and that I am their only hope, Delphine saying that the Blades were sworn to _serve_ the Dragonborn and they have been searching for one for 200 years, her voice while she was saying "so you really are dragonborn"... it just led me to believe that they'd be loyal to me because I am more to them than just an executioner. But in that you're right, that can be seen from many points of view.

But it was clear and Esbern even said it in the beginning when you meet him: the dragons are not the problem, they can kill them themselves. I am here to kill Alduin and that is the deal I have with them. I go kill Alduin, they help me achieve that goal. I am not a Blades-member, I swore no oath, I do not lead them. Delphine is the Grandmaster, she is the leader of their little group.
And even though I kept my promise, I killed Alduin, they want more, they want me to kill my dragon friend. I did even more than keep my promise I brought them new members, I gave them their temple back. And still it's not enough.

The Greybeards did not promise anything apart from teaching me the way of the voice. They do not want me to meet Paarthurnax ... or Arngeir doesn't and they still help me get to him. They do not want the 'people of war' in their halls and still help me make the armistice possible so I can go kill Alduin. Heck, they aren't even sure Alduin _should_ be stopped and still they help me, when I ask them to. That is why I say they trust me. They trust me with Paarthurnax, even though they are not so sure of me yet and I did not go far enough yet on my Way of the Voice to meet him. They trust me on my jugdement of the course of actions, _even though_ they do not share my opinion. I am not a means to an end to them and still they help me. That's more like a friendship than a partnership of convenience like with the Blades.

And to me it is a great difference if someone betrays your trust and you turn on him because of that (Greybeards) or if you turn on someone because he doesn't do what you tell him to (Blades).

The Blades don't want to talk to me again, because I don't follow their orders? Fine! They just shouldn't count on my help anymore either, should they ever need it. I know what to expect of them now.

[Wolfie]

Esbern saying "bah, dragons! they can be killed, the Blades killed many in their older days as dragonhunters!"

How ever we dopnt know what that means, is it really killing them, do they come back? or do they need aduin? we really dont know but if they do need Aduin they there would be almost no need for dragon borns and yet there was.

the gods made a dragon born why would they if anyone can kill a dragon?

its confsuing to say the last as dragon borns have been said many times to be "the only thing thaty can kill a dragon"


and that I am their only hope,

Delphine saying that the Blades were sworn to _serve_ the Dragonborn and they have been searching for one for 200 years, her voice while she was saying "so you really are dragonborn"... it just led me to believe that they'd be loyal to me because I am more to them than just an executioner. But in that you're right, that can be seen from many points of view.

But they had sworn to something else LONG before that, which was killing dragons, they where sowrn to gaurd the SEPTIM line, they died, they no longer serve the dragonborn blood line ebcuse its dead,

http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Blades
all can be seen herem they where there for the Septim line not just ANY dragoborn or even emporor, they even make it clear it was the sempt line

they even say they have gone back to their old calling of being dragon hunters, not serving the dragon born.

But it was clear and Esbern even said it in the beginning when you meet him: the dragons are not the problem, they can kill them themselves. I am here to kill Alduin and that is the deal I have with them. I go kill Alduin, they help me achieve that goal. I am not a Blades-member, I swore no oath, I do not lead them. Delphine is the Grandmaster, she is the leader of their little group.
And even though I kept my promise, I killed Alduin, they want more, they want me to kill my dragon friend. I did even more than keep my promise I brought them new members, I gave them their temple back. And still it's not enough.

So your exspectiong a group that will do anything to achive their goal to be just fine with you going aginst that goal and they shouyld still trust you...

If I'm trying to cure cance and you help me out here, there and there but then when it comes to one cancer you say "no" I'd say i have a good case not to talk to you anymore
and its not about oaths, your a dragonborn you are made to kill dragons ONCE and for all, only a dragon born can truly kill a dragon, that comes streight form the GODS!

The Greybeards did not promise anything apart from teaching me the way of the voice. They do not want me to meet Paarthurnax ... or Arngeir doesn't and they still help me get to him. They do not want the 'people of war' in their halls and still help me make the armistice possible so I can go kill Alduin. Heck, they aren't even sure Alduin _should_ be stopped and still they help me, when I ask them to. That is why I say they trust me.

WRONG, they dont trust you, go baxck again they only did it becuse paarth TOLD them to, time asnd time again they say "nope" he roars they say "very well"
they complain about you the whole time, the blades dont, they see you do that and just go with you team up with you help you with out any coaching form someone else, they trust you more then the gray beards do, they dont say "your not reddy" or say "no we wont help you"
or say "let Aduin come"

They trust me with Paarthurnax, even though they are not so sure of me yet and I did not go far enough yet on my Way of the Voice to meet him. They trust me on my jugdement of the course of actions, _even though_ they do not share my opinion. I am not a means to an end to them and still they help me. That's more like a friendship than a partnership of convenience like with the Blades.

They dont, if path did not tell them to let you through you would not be, they DONT trust you, time and time again they sAY "no" and then path says yes

and you are a means to an end, path talks to you so you can kill Aduin, thats the only reasson your in therem there have been hundreds of dragon before hand and they never let them there, you know whty? becuse they where not needed.

And to me it is a great difference if someone betrays your trust and you turn on him because of that (Greybeards) or if you turn on someone because he doesn't do what you tell him to (Blades).

but you DID betray the blades trust, they trusted you to hunt down dragons thats what the dragon borns where MADE for, thats what Akatosh made them for, so you did betray them.

The Blades don't want to talk to me again, because I don't follow their orders? Fine! They just shouldn't count on my help anymore either, should they ever need it. I know what to expect of them now

which is whats going to happen, and the same with the graybeards

would you stay with someone who did so much for you but wont do what they where brought there to do?
no you where not there just for Aduin you where there for killing dragons, a dragon born is not made to just kill one dragon

[merry]

Paarthy never intervened and told the Greybeards to do anything. Arngeir refused and one of the other Greybeards (I think Wulfgar it was, but I'm not sure) told him that he was forgetting himself and it was not in his right to refuse.

And again: I never promised the blades to help them root out the dragons. Esbern himself even says that is not why they were looking for me, they can handle the dragons themselves. My only deal with them is killing Alduin. Yes, I can truly kill a dragon, but with Alduin gone the Blades can do so too, because there is noone left to raise them again. And from the Gods I heard nothing about me having to kill all dragons. Not even the blades say that, they say _they_ kill dragons. The other dragonborn also didn't kill all dragons much less have I heard of any Dragonborns helping the Blades with it... if they had they'd not be coming back now, would they?
The dragonborn comes straight from the gods (or so we assume^^), not the Blades, not their orders and not the prophecy. Dragonborn and Alduin return together. That makes it very likely that they wanted me to kill Alduin and sent me to help the world. But nowhere is it said that it couldn't be my purpose to even help Alduin, as my inborn ability that makes me the ultimate dragon killer doesn't even work on him (I cannot absorb his soul)

And my point about the Greybeards is, that they help me _despite_ being of a different opinion on the matter. What's the big thing with people helping me that have the same goal as me anyway as is the case with the Blades in the beginning?
It's not that easy with the Greybeards, they differ from my point of view, they do not want to help me further my goals initially, they only want to teach me the way of the voice, nothing more. But after some arguing they help me despite of the differences. I find this a much larger proof of trust and friendship.


Oh and... the Greybeards don't send me to kill Delphine because the Blades are mass-murderers in their eyes. If they did that I would say it's the same as with the BLades. But shunning someone because he kills your Master and friend is something else completely than shunning someone because he doesn't follow your orders.

[Wolfie]

Paarthy never intervened and told the Greybeards to do anything. Arngeir refused and one of the other Greybeards (I think Wulfgar it was, but I'm not sure) told him that he was forgetting himself and it was not in his right to refuse.

you are wrong it was path

And again: I never promised the blades to help them root out the dragons. Esbern himself even says that is not why they were looking for me, they can handle the dragons themselves. My only deal with them is killing Alduin.

where did he say this? he says they

Yes, I can truly kill a dragon, but with Alduin gone the Blades can do so too, because there is noone left to raise them again

we do not know how a dragon comes back, nor do we know if those dragons where "killed by a dragonborn" or not, for all we know all of them may have been and that is why they are dead, and Aduin puts a new soul in,m we have no clue what happens then.

If Aduin "raises them again" did they not die? its necrommancy then, the dragon IS dead, there is no "true dead" then it makes no sense to say "only a dragon born can truly kill a draon, but only cause Aduin resructs them" they DID die then.

Unless you think me rasing a person form the dead means they cant "truly die"

And from the Gods I heard nothing about me having to kill all dragons. Not even the blades say that, they say _they_ kill dragons

http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Dragonborn

It is interesting to note that although "Dovah Kiin" translates to "Dragonborn", "Dov Ah Kiin" translates to "Dragon-Hunter Child", reference to the fact that the Dovahkiin is supposed to be the ultimate dragon hunter .

do you know what dragonborn means The other dragonborn also didn't kill all dragons much less have I heard of any Dragonborns helping the Blades with it...

check again, many the heros of old where dragon borns.

Lastly, we come to the question of the true meaning of being Dragonborn. The connection with dragons is so obvious that it has almost been forgotten - in these days when dragons are a distant memory, we forget that in the early days being Dragonborn meant having "the dragon blood". Some scholars believe that was meant quite literally, although the exact significance is not known. The Nords tell tales of Dragonborn heroes who were great dragonslayers, able to steal the power of the dragons they killed. Indeed, it is well known that the Akaviri sought out and killed many dragons during their invasion, and there is some evidence that this continued after they became Reman Cyrodiil's Dragonguard (again, the connection to dragons) - the direct predecessor to the Blades of today.

if they had they'd not be coming back now, would they?

We dont know, we dont know what happens when a dragons soul is asorbed, we know souls are REUSED in other things, maybe a dragon can get a new soul form some wher else, after all where would Aduin get the soul in the first place?

The dragonborn comes straight from the gods (or so we assume^^), not the Blades, not their orders and not the prophecy.

the prophecy comes form the elder scrolls which even the Gods cant stop, they are weaker then them.

Dragonborn and Alduin return together. That makes it very likely that they wanted me to kill Alduin and sent me to help the world.

But nowhere is it said that it couldn't be my purpose to even help Alduin, as my inborn ability that makes me the ultimate dragon killer doesn't even work on him (I cannot absorb his soul)

its not that you cant, its the Gods did not let you.
They WANT Aduin to end the world one time, it will hapen, Aduin went aginst their wishes and chose to rule instead of do what he was made to do.

And my point about the Greybeards is, that they help me _despite_ being of a different opinion on the matter. What's the big thing with people helping me that have the same goal as me anyway as is the case with the Blades in the beginning?

Becuse why would you help someone with a diffreint goal, the gray beards help you becuse path has the same goal as you, kill aduin, thats the only reasson they did this, becuse path, their leader, had the same goal as you, kill Aduin.
If Aduin was not here, they would do nothing for you, they would say "no go away" no your not reddy, no we wont do this
no we wont help the pepole down there
etc

It's not that easy with the Greybeards, they differ from my point of view, they do not want to help me further my goals initially, they only want to teach me the way of the voice, nothing more. But after some arguing they help me despite of the differences. I find this a much larger proof of trust and friendship.

Again your missing the point, its not that the trust you or freindship they are told to do so by their master, if a genreal tells his guys to hear you out dose that mean those guys trust you or are your freinds? no\, they trust and are freinds with their leader, not you.

[Br3admax]

I could yell about this, but I will just say, Alduin can not raise trully dead Dragons, once their soul is gone, it fuses back with Akatosh, I think one of the Lore writers said that Alduin raises the "sleeping" Dragons, not the one's Alduin kills. And the Greybeards help you, not because Paarth. tells them to, but because Paarth. tells them to AND they want to turn you from Akatosh's Way of the Voice(Dragon) to Kynarath's Way of thhe Voice(Nord). They want a Dragonborn who shouts at the sky, just like them.

[Mattbott]

http://forums.uesp.net/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=29454

this went on for 18 pages last time and i think we all agreed to disagree .. ? lol

for my vote, I would also agree Esberns attitude was a wtf sort of moment, kind of as if, during the final dance campfire scene in return of the jedi, the Ewoks went up to Luke and demanded Chewie's death, cos he was their arch nemesis from way back when and their holy book demanded it

so i thought it was a bit sudden in the context of the story as i played it out (we won, woot! wait, what?), and tbh despite convincing arguments on the blades' side as to their ancient mandate and oath, i still think that theyre pretty much just two people following an obsolete law (several times in games the blades have changed their function over the years and essentially arent the same group they were so its all up for grabs imo)

a 'fix' for this would have been for the game to allow the Dovahkiin to visit P with Esbern and Delphine, and let them meet/hate/fight/whatever. And i think if i could change the game, i'd get Max Von Sydow to record some more dialogue and would probably set this up

but the game leaves this decision on a very fine balance and it could go either way, and that is actually very good writing on Bethesda's part cos it is a perfectly neutral moral conundrum allowing two different characters to be perfectly justified in taking either course ( even if Esbern could be a little more open to negotiation - this attitude on his part led me to think of him as a man so persecuted and hunted he became like Ahab in a way, possibly not the most stable npc to have in your posse but believable)

this is a RP game after all

edit: the reason i don't think getting stuck into the lore is that important to the argument of the thread, is that my character was not a master lore student or historical sage, so the stuff i heard/read in the course of skyrim and the events in the game leading up to that moment with Esbern are really the context for my decision here

[merry]

I am taking everything from the ingame stuff I read in Skyrim, because I played none of the other games... or hadn't played while I played through Skyrim first (and met Paarthurnax and the Blades), everything I wrote comes from in game dialogue (sometime several different choices I admit) or ingame books.
I played at least Oblivion now, unfortunately Morrowind is not running on my computer ;D

One more thing in response to Wolfie: Paarthurnax does not tell you he wants you to stop Alduin, he even asks you if you're sure you want to, because he isn't so sure that it should be done. When you tell him you want to he helps you, just like the Greybeards themselves.

On the whole I agree with Mattbott, it is something that can be seen different ways and all of them are probably absolutely justifiable. It's only I agreed with the OP that it was a complete wtf moment and a big disappointment for me to have the Blades act that way. Not so much from Delphine but absolutely from Esbern.

Plus it is a point that makes me want to know more about the Akaviri, about their oaths, about why they hate dragons even more than other people and why they killed their emperor and so on and so on. I hope there's going to be more about it in the game and that it will explain to me why Delphine and Esbern are acting that way.

[born2beagator]

a gave the blades the finger and walked away when they told me to kill Paarthunax. If the blades weren't essential I would Fus Ro Dah them off the cliff

[merry]

I'd let Esbern live. But I was tempted to slay Delphine when I first met her and that feeling increased over time ;D

[Evil-i]

Are there any major in-game consequences for killing or not killing Parthurnax? The way I see it, both the Blades and the Grey Beards are pretty much useless to the player once you've reached that point in the story.

[merry]

Are there any major in-game consequences for killing or not killing Parthurnax? The way I see it, both the Blades and the Grey Beards are pretty much useless to the player once you've reached that point in the story.

Huh, the Greybeards keep giving you the quests for the word walls, if you have not learned all shouts after the main quest. Paarthurnax can always let you meditate over one of the three words, so you can keep changing them around if you wish.
I don't know what the Blades offer afterwards, I never killed Paarthurnax, so ofc they always stopped talking to me >.<

[Evil-i]

Hmmm...so the Gray Beards, who are on the other side of the coin from the Blades, continue to give you quests which require you to kill dragons, which is a very Blade-ish motivation. I mean, if what the GBs want is for you to continue to learn dragon shouts, then it would have been far more logical for them to teach them to you, as they did with Unrelenting Force and Clear Skies. The learn-shouts-by-slaughter route would have been a better fit for the Blades faction.

[merry]

Not at every word wall there's a dragon I don't know if they know exactly what surrounds the wall, they say they can hear the words whisper to them, but they never say if they know more about the place and my guess is they do not, they just hear the whispering and tell you where it is.
Their reason for not giving every shout to you like Unrelenting Force for example, is that they do not want to give you too much power without learning. If they just gave it all to you, they'd not be doing you a favor (in their eyes at least ;D ) because shouting is only the lowest grade of using the Voice, as they say^^

[Br3admax]

And would you play a game where everything was given to you, or would you say that it was too easy, From a lore stand-point, though, they really want you to stay on that mountain as long as possible, that way you can see the Voice as they see it.

[Sansreal]

Oh, look. It's this thread again.

From a pure gameplay, non-roleplay perspective, neither the Greybeards, nor the Blades have anything to offer you. You can find word walls just as easily with the notes from "a friend".

A nice DLC that would make The Parthuurnax Decision more visceral would be a short trip to the past when the dragons were terrorizing the world and to actually witness the horrific things he did. It really isn't a black and white decision.

My opinion is that, no matter how long ago it was, the atrocities he committed must be avenged. If Mengele were to be alive a thousand years from now and attempting to live a quiet life of meditation, would he be any less of a monster? Mass-murderers are to be put to death as efficiently as is practical, regardless of whether they might "feel bad" about what they did.