Gun Control!

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Re: Gun Control!

Post by DorostheConqueror »

Ed~ wrote:>second amendment
>'irrelevant filler'

Heehee. For a country who loves their amendments so much, you're quick to throw out parts that don't suit your ideals!
But it is. Read the Amendment again; there's absolutely no contingency attached to the right to bear arms in relation to the militia. I'll reprint it here, in it's entirety, just for you:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Does it say "the right of the states to organize militias shall not be infringed"? Does it say "the right to bear arms will be tolerated for now but can be infringed once the professional Army reaches such a level of sophistication that civilian conscription is no longer strategically necessary"? This isn't hard to understand, folks. You're not trying to parse Umberto Eco here.

Maybe some people wish it said something different. Maybe some people wish it were changed. If so, then try it: Amendments have been modified, and even overturned before. But until such a time, there's no equivocation: the right to bear arms shall not be infringed means the right to bear arms shall not be infringed.

Damn Constitution! Getting in the way of our laws!
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by Ed~ »

Silly, people structured their english differently back then.

The first part labels whats in question, them the second part is its effect, the third part is the manifestation of such and the last is saying that that shall not be infringed.

None of it is filler silly.
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by cowleyj »

DorostheConqueror wrote:
cowleyj wrote:As far As I am concerned, being british and objective in this matter:

1) All you need to defend yourself is one good, reliable handgun.
2) The 'well regulated militia' is the national guard/military reserve.

So basically, from a logical point of view, there is no need for ANY private household to own a class III-style heavy weapon such as an AR-15.

Please correct me if I am wrong.
You're wrong. As I mentioned before, the "well regulated militia" section of the Second Amendment is irrelevant filler; the militia was never envisioned to be a force similar to our modern Guard, nor is the right to bear arms conditional upon the militia- it "shall not be infringed", period. Gun-control advocates like to stress the militia statement as though it somehow excuses gun-control once the government gains enough power, but even a cursory examination of the actual wording reveals this is not the case. Indeed, this interpretation not only violates the letter of the law, it's runs utterly contrary to the spirit as well.

Nor is all you need one good, reliable handgun. In the present state of affairs, when the forces of tyranny can throw tanks, cruise missiles, and clouds of nerve gas at you, the idea that one handgun, let alone an arsenal of fully automatic weapons, can defend you is laughable. Doesn't hurt to try, but, like a samurai who lives as one already dead, one must always keep in mind the inevitable.

But who "needs" a "need" in order to justify owning a cool toy? You may not "need" an AR-15. You don't "need" a gaming computer or a flatscreen TV or a motorcycle or a house or a diet more varied than rice and barley. If you refuse to get things simply because you don't "need" them, then move to Amish country, hippie.
Hm. For one thing, I am not a hippie, sir. Do not judge people whom you have never met, it is the height of impoliteness. Secondly, "when the forces of tyranny can throw tanks...at you". To fight those is what your professional armed forces are for, is it not?
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by DorostheConqueror »

cowleyj wrote:
DorostheConqueror wrote:
cowleyj wrote:As far As I am concerned, being british and objective in this matter:

1) All you need to defend yourself is one good, reliable handgun.
2) The 'well regulated militia' is the national guard/military reserve.

So basically, from a logical point of view, there is no need for ANY private household to own a class III-style heavy weapon such as an AR-15.

Please correct me if I am wrong.
You're wrong. As I mentioned before, the "well regulated militia" section of the Second Amendment is irrelevant filler; the militia was never envisioned to be a force similar to our modern Guard, nor is the right to bear arms conditional upon the militia- it "shall not be infringed", period. Gun-control advocates like to stress the militia statement as though it somehow excuses gun-control once the government gains enough power, but even a cursory examination of the actual wording reveals this is not the case. Indeed, this interpretation not only violates the letter of the law, it's runs utterly contrary to the spirit as well.

Nor is all you need one good, reliable handgun. In the present state of affairs, when the forces of tyranny can throw tanks, cruise missiles, and clouds of nerve gas at you, the idea that one handgun, let alone an arsenal of fully automatic weapons, can defend you is laughable. Doesn't hurt to try, but, like a samurai who lives as one already dead, one must always keep in mind the inevitable.

But who "needs" a "need" in order to justify owning a cool toy? You may not "need" an AR-15. You don't "need" a gaming computer or a flatscreen TV or a motorcycle or a house or a diet more varied than rice and barley. If you refuse to get things simply because you don't "need" them, then move to Amish country, hippie.
Hm. For one thing, I am not a hippie, sir. Do not judge people whom you have never met, it is the height of impoliteness. Secondly, "when the forces of tyranny can throw tanks...at you". To fight those is what your professional armed forces are for, is it not?
Amish, hippie, same thing. You may call yourself what you wish. And no, you misunderstand. The right of private citizens to defend themselves is as much a check against the power of the government itself as it is an insurance against external threats. Ensuring that liberty could survive and remain vigilant against the creep of tyranny at home was, after all, one of the primary driving forces behind the Constitution, the reason why the Founding Fathers chose to make it a document of enumerated powers (the government can only do what it's TOLD it can do), rather than enumerated restrictions (the government can do whatever it wants, with a few explicitly stated exceptions, as was the case in even the most liberal monarchical systems). It's also why the US military was set up the way it was, with the military leadership consisting entirely of members from and dependent entirely upon the civilian government. The Founding Fathers knew all too well that the greatest threat to Republican liberty was NOT enemies from the outside, but it's own members. The Roman Republic, after all, fell not to the barbarians, nor to the Carthaginians, nor the Greeks, but to it's own army and a single populist leader.

In other words, the tanks "we the people" have to worry about are our own. Now, please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we've gotten to the point where the people must exercise their right to revolution and dissolution (a right which the Federal government has sought increasingly to denigrate and stamp out ever since the Civil War). Indeed, I'm more than cynical enough to believe that a modern Revolution would quickly derail itself against liberalism and wind up saddling us with an oppressive system that even Camus could not anticipate. But the principle is solid, and inviolate. Political power grows from the barrel of a gun, and the people must not surrender their swords unto the Shogun, under any circumstances.
The first part labels whats in question, them the second part is its effect, the third part is the manifestation of such and the last is saying that that shall not be infringed.
Actually, this is a syntactically valid sentence formulation even today.

Nor does the fact that it's structured somewhat archaically change the meaning of the sentence. The only part that matters, the only part which is relevant in regards to the law, is the conclusion: the part saying what shall not be infringed. Everything else is filler. It may be ritually important filler, filler which gives us some insight (very limited, unnuanced, and largely unnecessary for those of us who have access to more comprehensive historical records) into the reasoning behind creating such laws. Perhaps that's where you're having such a hard time accepting the wording? Perhaps it'd be an easier pill to swallow if I selected a less pejorative phrase to describe the fluff? But it doesn't tell us anything about the Constitutional authority granted to the federal government, so filler it must be.

Again, this isn't an Eco novel here. Either change it, or accept it.
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by Dark Lord Cam »

Dark Spark wrote:Texas sounds fun, except for the fact that I know most households there have a Californian or two stuffed and mounted on the living room wall.

It's a fair deal. We've got a good amount of Lobbying Texans buried in the fields of Sacramento.
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by cowleyj »

DorostheConqueror wrote:


Amish, hippie, same thing. You may call yourself what you wish.
I am not amish either. For one thing I hate all that "peace and love" crud, so my point still stands...Tomnoddy.
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by DorostheConqueror »

cowleyj wrote:
DorostheConqueror wrote:


Amish, hippie, same thing. You may call yourself what you wish.
I am not amish either. For one thing I hate all that "peace and love" crud, so my point still stands...Tomnoddy.
Alright, Tomnoddy then. I really don't care what you want to call yourself, so long as you understand where you erred (you did ask to be corrected if you were wrong, after all).
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by cowleyj »

I was calling YOU a tomnoddy, but yes I understand my mistake. My apologies sir.
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by Will Zurmacht »

For the benefit of our foreign friends, and others, I'll outline the current situation regarding how American courts have decided to interpret the Second Amendment. The collective rights interpretation, which focuses on the "regulated militia" language, and according to which firearms can only be used by members of the armed forces, has little traction with state or federal courts (never did, really). Instead, the individual right interpretation, focusing on "right of the people" and "shall not be infringed," stands as the current authoritative interpretation. So, each individual can own and bear arms.

But! Neither is it the case that American courts believe "shall not be infringed" literally means shall not be infringed (in the sense of encroached upon, limited, modified, and defined downwards)! The court (SCOTUS, the one that matters most) in its most recent important case on the issue had this to say about the individual right to bear arms:
SCOTUS wrote:Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons.
In other words, the right granted by the 2ndA shall be infringed, has been infringed, is being infringed, and will continue to be infringed by governments federal, state, and local. All Constitutional rights have these sorts of important caveats which get hammered out after the fact. That hammering continues and continues: as liberals gain power, more and more SCOTUS judges (which flow from the President, ultimately) will be in favor of collective rights. As the pendulum swings and conservatives gain power, more judges will craft opinions supporting the individual right interpretation. So it goes.
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by DorostheConqueror »

Only one objection from me on that one: please don't call the Democrats "liberals". It makes about as much sense as calling the Thalmor "Talos worshipers".

As for the rest of you (Veck in particular, I know how much you love RP), pay particular attention to this bit:
Neither is it the case that American courts believe "shall not be infringed" literally means shall not be infringed (in the sense of encroached upon, limited, modified, and defined downwards)!
Congressman Paul's harping on about "the Constitution" is not just idle and meaningless chatter. The Constitution is routinely ignored, at all levels of the government, and this state of affairs is not only an open secret, finding ways to smoothly circumvent the letter and spirit of Constitutional law is one of the core functions performed by today's political caste. For those of us who don't believe there should be checks on government power, well then, you're in luck! But for those of us who believe there should be (and I'm guessing this includes almost everyone, especially the rank-and-file "peon leftists" who routinely vote vicious autocrats like Obama and Hillary into office), you need Ron Paul. He may not be the hero you want, but he's the hero you need.
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by Dark Lord Cam »

Haha.
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by JockoBeans »

Why do I always pop into a good topic when it has gone past three pages. :(

Anyway, one thing I notice here is that a few of you say an AR-15 is an "assault weapon" or a "Class-III assault rifle" etc.

They are not. When broken down, an AR is not much different than a M1 Garand or a Mini-14. They are just semi-auto rifles. It is not a full automatic killing machine that Rambo would use on a daily bases. ARs do share the same all around design (and look) as their military bretheren, but they were designed as a civilian target rifle.

100 round mags? Well to be honest not a lot of people own them. They are expensive and they are not mechanically sound (like the Colorado shooter found out, fortunately), heavy, cumbersome and they take a long time to reload. Banning them would be about as effective as leaving them be. It is not really going to change much of anything, because militaries and criminals do not find them to be effective, only a person who has the time and the money to use and care for them properly.

Also, for non-Americans here, full automatics have been banned for civilian usage since 1934, the only civilians that are allowed to own them are ones who can afford a Class III license which is about $3000 to the ATF every 1 or 3 years, I can't remember which right now.
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by Nevastar »

Semi-automatic rifles are still assault rifles, IMO. The only practical reason they're used for is killing/assault, considering most are illegal for hunting.

If you have to pay $3000 annually for the license to own an automatic, that doesn't mean they're banned. That just makes them more expensive.
And I'm pretty sure if civilians ready to pay that much can legally access automatic rifles, then anyone can illegally access them.
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by Ed~ »

Isn't an AR-15 just a downgraded version of an M16? Like, the semi-auto version.

Either way, gun ownership is silly. Ed doesn't need a gun to protect herself, namely because theres never any crime where she is!

If you need a gun to protect yourself... Theres the problem.
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by Nevastar »

The major gun problem in the US can be outlined in five steps:
Step 1. Major crime involving guns happens (example: Colorado Theatre Shooting), and due to America's loose gun laws many people are shot.
Step 2. People wonder what would've happened if they had guns to protect themselves from the crime.
Step 3. People buy more guns to protect themselves.
Step 4. Now that more guns are in possession, it is more likely that a major crime such as the one in step 1. will happen.
Step 5. Repeat steps 1. to 4. until apocalypse.
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by Dark Spark »

Ed~ wrote:...Either way, gun ownership is silly. Ed doesn't need a gun to protect herself, namely because theres never any crime where she is!

If you need a gun to protect yourself... Theres the problem.
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by cowleyj »

Ed~ wrote:Isn't an AR-15 just a downgraded version of an M16? Like, the semi-auto version.

Either way, gun ownership is silly. Ed doesn't need a gun to protect herself, namely because theres never any crime where she is!

If you need a gun to protect yourself... Theres the problem.
The AR15 was the original civilian version of the M16 prior to its adoption by the military.
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by Mattbott »

Dark Lord Cam wrote:Also, gun restrictions vary by state, so some states are a bit more lax than others.

i think that's the key here, law can't do any good unless it is enforced by officers of the state and its citizens
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by Musicman247 »

Texas only requires a license for conceal and carry. Anyone of age (18, I think) can have a gun in their vehicle or home without the need for any kind of licensure.
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by MARS »

Remind me to bring a Kevlar vest when I make my 'Murica trip.
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by Musicman247 »

Just because it's legal doesn't mean everyone does it. I do not own a firearm (but with the violence increasing along the border I'm seriously considering it).
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by Generalno1 »

Just because a guy has a gun doesn't make him a maniac.

Of all the guns owned domestically how many see even a single use?
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by Archer »

A very, very small amount. It amazes me how people think that if you make a certain type of gun illegal, criminals will obey that law and not get that gun.

To Nevastar: Semi-automatic rifles do have a place in hunting. The wild hog that is very prevalent in the southern parts of America are considered a pest and thus, do not have a season or a "bag limit". When you hog hunt the purpose is to get rid of as many as possible and a semi-automatic rifle makes that easier.
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by DorostheConqueror »

Southern Archer wrote:A very, very small amount. It amazes me how people think that if you make a certain type of gun illegal, criminals will obey that law and not get that gun.
Well, I never! It's very presumptuous of you to assume that criminals won't obey the law!
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by MARS »

You assume that only criminals kill with guns.

What is a criminal in this regard, really? A professional? Because that's what you make it sound like, a profession, a certain type of person. People aren't born criminals and having guns so readily available makes it easy for criminals to commit armed crimes.

Further on, a citizen who kills with a gun is a criminal from that point on. How did they get a gun? Through the lax gun control laws. Guns are dangerous and very easy to mishandle. One unfortunate movement and someone's dead or dying.
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