Do you want the empire to reform?

[POMC S117]

That's because they've had twice as much training, living longer than men.

How is the legion weak and useless? The legions at the Battle of the Red Ring seemed to perform excellently. The Empire was taken by surprise. next time, the Thalmor won't have that advantage.

[Derp53]

in every skirmish i've seen between legion and stormcloak soldiers the stormcloaks always left victorious with no more than at least one man down, if the legion ever won there was only one-two men left. the battle of the red ring was pure luck and determination, mede made a mistake when he signed the concordat and hammefell's resistance proved that, the only way to put the thalmor back in their place is to wipe the floor with them, Mede half assed it with the concordat and betrayed his legions and his supporters to keep his throne

[POMC S117]

Are you seriously judging the competence of the legions on game mechanics?

Mede did not sign the Concordat to keep his throne. He signed it so that the Empire could recover and fight another day.

[Derp53]

look either way we can both say the legion is diminished and isn't what it used to be

hard to recover when you sign a treaty granting your enemy right to wander your empire and betray one of your greatest supporters(skyrim)

[POMC S117]

The Empire had lost Chorrol, Anvil and Imperial City. Southern Hammerfell was devastated. They couldn't continue with that destruction. They had to rebuild.

[Derp53]

and they lost those cities because the legion couldn't hold them and they weren't prepared, even after a thalmor ambassador threw a cart full of heads which happened to blades and claimed elven superiority. So it's not just the empire being in decline, also if you claim your the dominant empire in Tamriel you'd better be ready to go hard or go home, because the thalmor weren't messing around and they proved it, naturally southern hammerfell was devastated but they continued to fight and look, they kicked out the thalmor and kept their land.

[POMC S117]

The reason the legion couldn't hold them was because they weren't prepared. The ymay have known that an attack was coming but they didn't know when.

The effect on the economy in Hammerfell would have been shocking. Those areas would not be able to become productive for years.

[Derp53]

and they had no excuse not to hold a defensive line, the thalmor envoy gave them full reason to prepare for war and Hammerfell will recover, however if they had acquiesced to the concordat they would have been worse off than they were driving the thalmor out of hammerfell

[POMC S117]

The Thalmor could have attacked from anywhere. The Valenwood border, up the river, the Elesywr border. If you tried to hold a defensive line that long your army would be stretched too thin.

The legions would have to take over Valenwood. That would be suicidal. Defence in familiar territory is a lot easier than attacking an army in a jungle. Especially when that army has some of the best archers in the world.

[Derp53]

not all bosmer supported the thalmor, they were subordinate under them

are you assuming that i'm saying the legion would make a miles long defensive line, i'm not stupid POMC, you utilize the environment to your environment and concentrate your forces in your forts, cities, and other defensive positions, the legion let the border go unprotected and they suffered for it, they didn't even make outposts to warn of an attack and bulk up their defenses.

[POMC S117]

Where is your evidence to support that they didn't build these things?

[Derp53]

Where is your evidence to support that they didn't build these things?

here's what I got, written by an imperial soldier himself, nowhere in it does it talk about the thalmor overwhelming preliminary defenses or destroying some kind of first line of defense
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/great-war

[POMC S117]

Derp, it says that the Thalmor were in Cyrodiil within days. That is not enough time to prepare an army. I'd still regard that as being taken by surprise.

[p-sto]

The more I think about it the more I'm inclined to say the Empire lost the war. Sure they may have retaken the imperial city but the Thalmor dictated the terms of peace. It can be argued that the Thalmor presence in imperial territory is small but you still have a foreign military force present in imperial land enforcing laws. Sounds a lot like occupation to me. It can be said that imperial soldiers are still the main force keeping the peace but whose peace are they really keeping?

[Derp53]

the political events and the hostility of the thalmor should've mandated caution when dealing with them when Elsweyr succeeded, and even if you only had only days the empire was quite expansive, they could have easily raised a small force within two days within each city of Cyrodiil and the geographic position of Cities in Cyrodiil make a pretty good defensive perimeter, and i'm also going to point out the empire's administrative structure wasn't too great either, if you have officials like Amuand Motiere then it's likely the government itself has some problems.

[POMC S117]

Yes. A small force. A small force against an invading army. That's not going to do much.

[Derp53]

Yes. A small force. A small force against an invading army. That's not going to do much.

holding a city that already has a guard force, all you have to do is withstand a siege and if the empire had thought ahead they wouldn't even have had that problem, the tipping point was when Elsweyr seeded from the empire, at that point the empire should've bulked up defenses in Cyrodiil

[POMC S117]

The Imperials did have defences, actually.

After Titus II rejects an ultimatum to make massive concessions to the Thalmor, Aldmeri armies invade. An army led by Thalmor general Lord Naarifin emerges from hidden camps in northern Elsweyr and assaults southern Cyrodiil, flanking Imperial defenses along the Valenwood border. Leyawiin falls to the invaders, and Bravil is surrounded and besieged. Simultaneously, an army under Lady Arannelya crosses western Cyrodiil, bypassing Anvil and Kvatch and entering Hammerfell. This army is joined by smaller forces landing on Hammerfell's coast. Imperial troops are forced into retreat across the Alik'r Desert.

They were also attacked from two sides. That's one of the worst positions you can be in. They had the odds stacked against them. They were taken by surprise and being attacked from two sides.

[Derp53]

they were attacked on one side from Valenwood and Elsweyr, and if the defenses got overwhelmed it says something doesn't it, either the empire was to lax and ignored a crucial tipping point when it lost Elsweyr or it's legions were weak.

[POMC S117]

Or it was because the defences were flanked. The Thalmor had found a good position to attack from.

[Derp53]

yes they did, this may sound annoying but i'll say this again, Elsweyr was the important leverage in the great war it allowed for the flanking motion which supports the notion that the empire should've paid more attention

[POMC S117]

I'll agree with that. It was probably because the Empire expected the attacks to come from Valenwood and not Elsweyr.

What were we even debating in the first place?

[Derp53]

i dunno, something about politics and the empire reforming somehow

[Archer]

Of course I want the empire to reform. Do I think it will? Probabley not.

[Sopherius]

Nope, I believe it ran its course, and that, like the Roman Empire, should/will eventually come to an inevitable end. And, I would rather like seeing a future TES game with fragmented city-states, rather than the almost omnipresent Empire, ala Daggerfall. Minus the Empires presence. Some feudalism would definitely be interesting to see in Tamriel, not to mention refreshing.