Gun Control!

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Gun Control!

Post by Dark Lord Cam »

Recent events have begun to kick this issue up in debates at home and in the media. Let's discuss it shall we.

Note: Anything I copy pasted from another thread in another forum is because I'm too lazy to rewrite my entire post.

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Let's get to business and analyze the Second Amendment, shall we?
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to bear arms shall not be infringed."
Well, that's fine and dandy. What does it mean though?

Some people, namely conservatives, take it to mean that the average citizen is free to legally acquire and keep firearms to protect their homes, their families, and their country. Other more liberally minded people interpret these words to mean that citizens can form organized militias to help defend the country, and that the average citizen should not have such liberal access to weapons.

Over the years, many liberal politicians, activists, and analysts have had trouble arguing over which side is right. Then there are the large number of split opinions within this faction. Some people believe that all guns in the hands of private citizens should be banned. Others believe that the government should not be so strict and that simply more regulation is suitable.

So who's right? The liberals or the conservatives? Should all firearms be banned, more regulated, or should the government just mind its own damn business and leave people alone?

In my opinion, they're all right.

Some dangerous weapons should be banned, but we can't take away every single rifle or pistol in the country. How would that even work? Are you going to march into an average gun owning household and demand that they give up their firearms? Go ahead, I'll wait behind this thick brick wall here. Guns are simply a vital part of American culture and history. This is a country with a long and proud tradition of free citizens defending themselves and being able to exercise their free rights. Firearms cannot be entirely banned. To do so is to invite disaster.

Clearly, some weapons like Rocket Propelled Grenades, other explosives, flamethrowers, missiles, tanks, specialized ammunition, machine guns, etc should not be in the hands of the average citizen. Those weapons absolutely demand strict control. So what sorts of weapons should people be allowed to own? Really, the simplest kind. Automatic weapons and drum magazines are not exactly what a family needs when it comes to protection against burglars. It's overkill.

"But," a conservative would say, "we don't just need these weapons to stop robbers. We need them to defend our country! Why are you taking away our big guns? We're being repressed by a bloody tyrant! Aaaaaarghagugugagh!"

"Hold on, cowboy!" I would shout.
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to bear arms shall not be infringed."
"See that? That's what the constitution says. Does the average American household count as being part of a well regulated militia? Well, I'm sure you think little Timmy can handle a hunting rifle just fine with his old pa, but he's not exactly a soldier ready for battle is he?"

"But," he would say again, "people can join together and make a militia if they're armed."

"Sure, they could. Though you must ask yourself, does an armed gang really count as a regulated militia? Ultimately, you have to answer to some kind of authority."

He responds, "What? We're a militia, not the regular army."

"Well, yeah, but who do you answer to? If your idea is to defend the country from attack, why are you just randomly walking around town with your buddies armed to the teeth? Are the cops suddenly going to be okay with an unauthorized gang with assault rifles just casually strolling through Main Street? Of course not. You have to be well regulated! You have to be officially recognized by the government. Now, you don't have to follow orders from the Federal Government. You can simply be part of your state's Defense Force. There's nothing wrong with being an officially recognized and entirely legal SDF! You get to do nifty things like put out wild fires, help people in natural disasters, and beat up hippies when they ask you to."

Conservative: :D

Then after thinking, "Wait, isn't that the job of the National Guard? How can we do their jobs?"

"Because, silly, the National Guard is also part of your state's militia. In fact, the National Guard is our entire country's Well Regulated militia force!"

"Hold on a minute! The National Guard isn't a militia. They're Federalized, and they help the Regular Army invade foreign countries and occupy foreign soil. A militia is supposed to be about Homeland security. They're just another arm of the no good Federal government!" The conservative says.

"Oh, don't be such a schmuck! The National Guard, is defined by the United States Code in Title 10 as being a subset of the United States Militia. Plus, the National Guard traces its history all the way back to the Massachusetts Bay Colonial Regiments! Besides, not all National Guard units are Federalized. A fairly large portion of them serve locally in their own states aiding in disaster relief and stopping riots, as ordered by their state governments. You also can't make the argument that it doesn't count as a militia because it has deployments overseas. What about all the militia units that invaded Canada in the War of 1812? Or what about all of the Militia units that fought in the Mexican-American war? They fought to conquer land, does that make them any less of a militia?"

"Bah, humbug." He would say.

The truth is, the Second Amendment as intended by the Founding Fathers is already fulfilled by the existence of the National Guard and the various SDFs. These are all well-regulated militias that do the jobs the Regular Military can't. So no, the average citizen does not need machine guns to defend his home from burglars. The average citizen does not need to carry around drum magazines to hunt deer. And anything more than a legally concealed pistol on city streets is overly ostentatious.

"But what about bullet proof vests? Gun control activists want to ban those too!"

Well, there I agree with you. Bullet proof vests don't kill people. They should be regulated only to the point where known criminals can't acquire them, but anything else is a waste of resources. Though I'll never understand why anyone would be paranoid enough to walk around Broadway with a large flak jacket. If that's your thing, go ahead.

So there you have it. That's my opinion, as clear and detailed as I can manage. If the average American citizen thinks he has the Constitutional right to bear arms, he should go and join the National Guard.
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by Goldbrand »

personally, I think it'd be good to take a lesson from I think it's the Swiss:

All adult males do a certain amount of time in the national guard, train how to use a rifle properly, learn its care, its use, its dangers, and then when they leave, they keep the rifle and their role. This makes almost the entirety of the country not only an army of sorts, but it also ensures everyone knows how to use the damned things, and the government knows what they've given them in terms of power and capability.

Problem solved. Almost every household has a gun, which are all equal and moderate in power, with a trained user.
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by Br3admax »

The constitution says militias are necessary, as such we can not stop people from buying guns. If we do, the can not make militias. If they can not make militias we will die. It does not say we need to only allow guns in a militia. I may be reading your re-post wrong, though. It just says when the time comes, then we can regulate the crazy-guys with guns. And it is wrong to make everyone join the army. Sell your life if you want, I'm just fine.
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by Dark Lord Cam »

I honestly don't think such a system would work for the US. People have the expectation here that they don't have to serve in the military if they don't want to. If recent High School graduates enlist, it's a big thing, because they are doing it voluntarily. People here respect voluntary service, more than a general draft. Citizens don't want to have to serve , if they don't need to. It's not part of our culture.

Edit: And yes, you read my post wrong.

I'm saying that not all guns should be banned. Just the really powerful ones.
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by Kerr »

I thought the only reason American citizens had guns was so they could overthrow the US Government in an armed rebellion.
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by Br3admax »

If it's for protection, only a small handgun or small calibar rifle is really needed. Also most people who recieve guns legally, neither go through a mental orr background check
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by Dark Lord Cam »

Knight Captain Kerr wrote:I thought the only reason American citizens had guns was so they could overthrow the US Government in an armed rebellion.
That's one interpretation, but the Constitution says nothing about overthrowing the US government. The second amendment is specifically meant to aid the Federal government in security.

If the above were true, then the Civil War would not have been fought, as it would have been entirely legal for the South to rebel.
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by HatofMadness »

Who kills people? The gun, or the man?
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by Dark Lord Cam »

HatofMadness wrote:Who kills people? The gun, or the man?
Both.
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by Eltee »

I quite like the current regulation rules in Canada.

-No concealed weapons

-No automatic weapons

-No semiautomatic weapons, without an EXTREMELY extensive licence.

-No handguns, without an EXTREMELY extensive licence.

-No shotguns with a capacity greater than 4 rounds without an EXTREMELY extensive licence.

-No rifles with a capacity greater than 5 rounds without an EXTREMELY extensive licence.

-No shotguns or rifles with sawn-down barrels

*The 'grandfather clause' exempts some weapons, like the WW2 era SMLE rifles Canada used.

Beyond that, there is the 'assault weapons' list that specifically bans a series of other weapons, whether or not they are covered by the above list. AKs, Tec9s, Ruger Mini-14s (the one Marc Lepine used at the Ecole Polytechnique massacre) and more.
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by Br3admax »

Eltee wrote:I quite like the current regulation rules in Canada.

-No concealed weapons

-No automatic weapons

-No semiautomatic weapons, without an EXTREMELY extensive licence.

-No handguns, without an EXTREMELY extensive licence.

-No shotguns with a capacity greater than 4 rounds without an EXTREMELY extensive licence.

-No rifles with a capacity greater than 5 rounds without an EXTREMELY extensive licence.

-No shotguns or rifles with sawn-down barrels

*The 'grandfather clause' exempts some weapons, like the WW2 era SMLE rifles Canada used.

Beyond that, there is the 'assault weapons' list that specifically bans a series of other weapons, whether or not they are covered by the above list. AKs, Tec9s, Ruger Mini-14s (the one Marc Lepine used at the Ecole Polytechnique massacre) and more.
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by Eltee »

Now, it would be easier if it wasn't for the flow of illegal guns from the States. Jerks.
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by Dark Lord Cam »

The point is to make it harder to acquire these weapons. Yes, people can still get them if they want em. However, the average American citizen isn't willing to break the law to acquire a gun.
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by Derp53 »

Scozzar wrote:"Guns don't kill people, I kill people"

Anywho, I would have to agree with Goldbrand's philosophy, but implementing it in the US would be a pain. However, not much can be learned from the Aurora shooting because the shooter had a clean record. If he didn't then there's no way he could've walked out of a gun store brandishing an AR-15. I mean, there are certain weapons that I believe should only be used by the military, like the AR-15, but I think new magazine size restrictions will come out of this, not so much the guns themselves.

Another thing is that even if there were strict gun laws people would still get a hold of it. I mean, not to bash the US or anything, but it seems whatever we ban causes more to come through. We're not very good about enforcing things IMO
it's human nature to obtain things that are off limits and it's also our nature to defy bans and laws. Though i'll have to observe Cam's statement
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by Jeff »

Proper Gun Control:

- Set the weapon in the saddle of your non-trigger hand (supported gives best stability)
- Get a good consistant steady cheek weld to the butt of the rifle
- Keep both eyes open
- Sight on to target ensuring a proper sight picture
- Take a few deep breaths (usually 3)
- At the bottom of your last breath (do not hold it)
- Squeze the trigger with the tip of your finger (ensuring not to jerk it)
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by Witchery »

Dark Lord Cam wrote:The point is to make it harder to acquire these weapons. Yes, people can still get them if they want em. However, the average American citizen isn't willing to break the law to acquire a gun.
So. . . the people who want them, criminals, that is . . . will get them. And average Americans (the targets of criminals) won't be able to defend themselves. I don't get the logic here.
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by Dark Lord Cam »

Just because a criminal CAN get these weapons, doesn't mean it will be easy.

Criminals in Britain can get guns, they just happen to be extremely hard to acquire. That's how it should be.

Besides, I'm not saying all guns should be banned.
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by DorostheConqueror »

Dark Lord Cam wrote:Recent events have begun to kick this issue up in debates at home and in the media.

Once again, The Onion knows all. The Onion sees all. Foolish earth-creatures, and your slavishly predictable behavior!
According to the nation's citizenry, calls for a mature, thoughtful debate about the role of guns in American society started right on time, and should persist throughout the next week or so. However, the populace noted, the debate will soon spiral out of control and ultimately lead to nothing of any substance, a fact Americans everywhere acknowledged they felt "absolutely horrible" to be aware of.
Anyways, Cam, I would encourage you to watch this (extra parts on channel) before you misinterpret both the Constitution and the Founding Father's original intentions. Long story short, the part you should have bolded, the only part that actually matters, since it's the only part which actually tells the government what it can and can't do (i.e. delineating the enumerated powers, which is the whole point of having a constitution in the first place) is:
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to bear arms shall not be infringed."
Nevermind that the Founding Fathers didn't envision a country in which the professional military was a trillion dollar entity and all state militias were nothing more than a single arm of the all-powerful, indivisible federal might, but a nation composed of heavily armed, well-trained freemen who could be quickly called up to bolster the ranks of a small cadre of professionals if and when the British showed up. Nevermind that all the Founding Fathers worth talking about were radical liberal revolutionaries, and knew that the only sure check against tyranny from on high was for the people to retain the will and capacity for resistance if and when, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another. The Constitution clearly says "the right of the people to bear arms shall not be infringed". Not "the right will be infringed once we get a [&@%!]' military and/or some really cool guns get made". Until such a time as the Second Amendment is either stricken from the books, or re-Amended, all your "arguments" are futile. You've got to live with it.

That said, I agree with you on the National Guard, at least in spirit. If you want to shoot [&@%!], join the military. And list me as a referral, cuz I get a bonus for everyone I sign up.
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by Derp53 »

DorostheConqueror wrote:
Dark Lord Cam wrote:Recent events have begun to kick this issue up in debates at home and in the media.

Once again, The Onion knows all. The Onion sees all. Foolish earth-creatures, and your slavishly predictable behavior!
According to the nation's citizenry, calls for a mature, thoughtful debate about the role of guns in American society started right on time, and should persist throughout the next week or so. However, the populace noted, the debate will soon spiral out of control and ultimately lead to nothing of any substance, a fact Americans everywhere acknowledged they felt "absolutely horrible" to be aware of.
Anyways, Cam, I would encourage you to watch this (extra parts on channel) before you misinterpret both the Constitution and the Founding Father's original intentions. Long story short, the part you should have bolded, the only part that actually matters, since it's the only part which actually tells the government what it can and can't do (i.e. delineating the enumerated powers, which is the whole point of having a constitution in the first place) is:
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to bear arms shall not be infringed."
Nevermind that the Founding Fathers didn't envision a country in which the professional military was a trillion dollar entity and all state militias were nothing more than a single arm of the all-powerful, indivisible federal might, but a nation composed of heavily armed, well-trained freemen who could be quickly called up to bolster the ranks of a small cadre of professionals if and when the British showed up. Nevermind that all the Founding Fathers worth talking about were radical liberal revolutionaries, and knew that the only sure check against tyranny from on high was for the people to retain the will and capacity for resistance if and when, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another. The Constitution clearly says "the right of the people to bear arms shall not be infringed". Not "the right will be infringed once we get a [&@%!]' military and/or some really cool guns get made". Until such a time as the Second Amendment is either stricken from the books, or re-Amended, all your "arguments" are futile. You've got to live with it.

That said, I agree with you on the National Guard, at least in spirit. If you want to shoot [&@%!], join the military. And list me as a referral, cuz I get a bonus for everyone I sign up.
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by DorostheConqueror »

Jeff wrote:Proper Gun Control:

- Set the weapon in the saddle of your non-trigger hand (supported gives best stability)
- Get a good consistant steady cheek weld to the butt of the rifle
- Keep both eyes open
- Sight on to target ensuring a proper sight picture
- Take a few deep breaths (usually 3)
- At the bottom of your last breath (do not hold it)
- Squeze the trigger with the tip of your finger (ensuring not to jerk it)
Once again, Jeff is right on the money.

Quick question: how do you manage your non-trigger hand? I was taught to "rest" the guard in the crock of my hand, and not to grip it too tightly. However, I've met some people who swear to the tight baseball grip, and even seen some highspeed sport shooters doing all manner of whacky things, like reversing their hand and resting the guard on their palm while firing without support.
derp53 wrote:i thought you got banned...
What makes you say that?
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by Derp53 »

@DorostheConqueror: it said in big red letters (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by Dark Lord Cam »

Doros is a joker. Never take him seriously. Not even if he says he's being serious.
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by Taters »

As an aside, I think the whole "guns kill people" argument is fallacious. By that logic, wedges of Parmesan and pieces of pot roast kill people(as both have been used to commit murder). Yes, some violence might be or might have been lessened or eliminated if guns were not available to the commiter of the act, but in most cases, it's easily arguable that a "lesser" weapon could or would have been used. Also, cliche though it may be, "when guns are outlawed, only outlaws have guns" is accurate. Washington D.C. banned private ownership of firearms, and they have a higher incident of gun crime than any other urban center in the U.S. Yes, a good deal of that is for possession, but there it is. Mind you, I don't own guns myself, and I personally think that ownership of anything other than a hunting rifle(unless you live in a REALLY bad neighborhood) is kind of silly, but I also don't believe in infringing on those who wish to own (reasonable) guns.

EDIT: Also, as far as guns and kids, though I can't speak to accident statistics within the home(though they are often overblown), it's been shown that, for children, hunting is, in injury and death rate, less dangerous than table tennis. The highest culprit for that is football, but this thread's not about that, so never mind.
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by Jeff »

For Doros (or others if they are interested):
Spoiler:
Pretty much like the Military taught:

It depends on the person and the weapon that you are firing. For the M16/M4, even with a front rail pistol grip (I keep it back so I can get a good prone firing position if need be). The key is what is comfortable for the firer. You can not hit targets consistantly, if you are not comforatable, and able to get a consistant steady firing position. I would keep my elbow out just a bit, so that it is comfortable, let the barrel rest in the palm of my hand, and comfortably grip it. Not to hard (as to not pull on it, or cause it to quiver due to muscle straign), but not to lightly (as to not be able to keep it in a comfortable possition and steady).

The one varience: I would let the elbow of my trigger finger arm go out just a bit, so that it felt comfortable. They always taught to keep it in tight, but it caused straign in my arm, and it would twitch/quiver, and make my aim unsteady.
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Re: Gun Control!

Post by House of the Wolf »

What Jon Stewart has to say.
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