Critique of TES Online E3 and why it makes no sense

[Velothi]

Here's a little critique I formed up whilst watching the E3 talks about TES Online.

So, yeah. I have a question for you lot, coming from a comment by Paul Sage the.."creative director" for the game. (found here http://www.youtube.c...tailpage#t=345s)

So let's ignore that Era's are defined by events and people can declare the beginning and ends of eras as they please. Let's also try to ignore that since the Aldmer Dominion exists in this universe that it'd have to be between the time frames of 2E 854 (When Emperor Zero is assassinated) (Aldmeri Dominion is formed 2E 830) and 2E 896 - when Tiber Septim actually conquers Tamriel. But even then this is shortened as since this involves various factions it'd likely have to be before the Fall of Hammerfell to Septim's forces.

In conclusion we have a time-stream of 2E 854 and 2E 862 (While one can claim that the Rebellion of Stros M'kai solves it..it doesn't. It just means that the Redguards rule over by their own blood yet are still under the Imperial authority of Tiber Septim). Not a long time frame

The main issue being 1000 years..now deciding on whether or not the time frame is in that place I mentioned - you still have 433 years of the 3rd Era and then 201 years within the Fourth Era (where Skyrim takes place). This being some 600 years. While I may be nitpicking, you still don't treat it like a thousand years.

..And then Paul says "..and then 50 years in the past they had an invasion.."

I can only assume he means the Akaviri Invasion of Tamriel, also located within the Second Era...But that happens in 2E 572.(in terms of Dunmeri defeating the Akavirian forces) That's some three centuries before the Aldmeri Dominion is even created, He could also mean the Four-Scour War..but then this is also put to shame because that happens within the First Era. The Reman Empire dies within 2E 430/431 after the Potenate is killed. So then the story gets even more confusing.

Was there some other invasion that happened to Skyrim, Morrowind and Argonia that forced them to take up arms and defend each other despite the fact that the Nords traditionally loathe the Dunmer, who loathe them back and also loathe the Argonians whom loathe the Dunmer. Either it was the Akaviri invasion (which would force people to take military alliances) or this is complete bull. (Plus I'm pretty sure even though the Arnesian War hasn't happened yet Dres still raids into Argonia. There has never been a time where House Dres has NOT raided Argonia. Take note this is the 2nd Era and before the Revival of the Sixth House. This is Morrowind at its FINEST VELOTHIAN HOUR. Indoril is all powerful and still in charge, Redoran is pretty powerful, Dres is still a major-slaver organization and Hlaalu is just coming about in power but not there yet. Plus Redoran and Nord relations have never been okay enough to offer an alliance..)

Then he says 'instability within the Empire' (6:46). Now I'm even more confused. What 'Empire'? So we've assumed that this has to be after the death of Emperor Zero because there HAS to be some Imperial presence of authority. He might be saying 'Empire' due to taste but still - what 'Empire'? There is no 'Empire' - there are (after Emperor Zero's death) just Tiber's forces whom are holding onto a somewhat unified Cyrodil and seeking conquest of Hammerfell. This isn't an Empire as Tiber is not crowned Emperor - he's just a general. He's like Augustus or Mark Anthony.

Another mark - 7:13 We now know that Tiber Septim is alive and has not been crowned Emperor as of yet. So this has to be before his conquering of the whole of Tamriel - and thus we can tell it's inbetween 2E 852 and 2E 862. (Morrowind likely is claimed around 2E 880s or 2E 870s due to 2E 890s being when Alinor falls to Tiber's forces via Numidium)

And then another contradictory thingy. "There was an Empire..it's..it's just kinda in disarray." (7:14-17)

This makes no sense. The Empire does not fully exist until after Tiber's corronation as Emperor of Tamriel. He's not Emperor of Cyrodil, he's not Emperor of anything. He's General Tiber Septim of Emperor Zero's forces - and Emperor Zero is dead. However - things can not be in disarray. Why? Contrary to popular belief if you have a strong military force you can pretty much maintain a situation in an Empire without an Emperor. Never in Roman history was there truly a disarray because the military had such a strong hand in the situation that it'd be simply up to them to decide whom is Emperor. Tiber Septim was healed by Zurin and this would be only after the immediate years following Emperor Zero's death could there be a possibility of 'disarray' in an 'Empire' that is just in CYRODILL. There is no Empire outside of it. One can even claim there is no longer an Empire but simply a military-state controlled by Tiber Septim, Zurin and their aids.

On making their own Emperor - Who the [VEHK] cares? Honestly - I'm pretty sure the Tribunal are satisified with being 'God-Kings' of Morrowind. Vivec wouldn't want Morrowind to be an Empire or himself to become 'Emperor'. He'd just want Morrowind's survival. Argonia has no interests for if they did we'd already see a war between the Empire and Argonia far before the 'Great War' happened.

The Aldmeri Dominion was already an Empire and would want to destroy this man-potential - sure. But the others? Why should they care. The only faction that may care is the Nords and that may be for Tiber Septim's cause. Because you know men before mer, ya'll! (derp de do) (7:24-25) (Of course this is purely for gameplay use but it also screws with the lore more so than George Lucas has screwed with Star Wars with..'Space Jesus'.)

Now we get into some real-real-real stupid crap. PREPARE THE WALLS. 7:58-8:04

Just in these few lines has the entire lore of Mannimarco, the Imperials and Molag Bal have been crushed by this man. I haven't seen such a thing that's depressing since the Phantom Menance. So first off - the Imperials (Not Tiber Septim) have made a deal with a lieutenant of Molag Bal (Mannimarco, the King of the Worms) whom is the Daedric Prince of the Undead.

First - why is Mannimarco dealing with Imperials or even vice versa? This is of course the Mannimarco who joined the Mages Guild around 2E 230, fought with Galieron and was supposedly dead but not really due to his linchdom and through some other means. He would return in Daggerfall and become the God-King of Worms. However, in the Third Era he was in The Illiac Bay and clearly set his power-base around there for that specific purpose in that specific time. He had obviously built up machinnations to secure his power in the Illiac Bay. To Necromancers they don't need or shouldn't make deals when there is no purpose. There are no 'Gods' to deal with - and since this is befoe Mannimarco's ascencion clearly this point needs to be made out.

Why would Mannimarco deal with the Imperials when he had nothing to gain in the long run that could make it very benefical? For daggerfall it was godhood. What do the Imperials have? Nothing. These are also Imperials of non-Tiber faction because please re-iterate when Tiber Septim dealt with Necromancers? He only made peace deals with the Dunmer and the Argonians due to knowing he'd lose alot of men. He may even lose the war. A possibility he didn't want.

So say it is Tiber making a deal with Mannimarco. It doesn't fit his character.

Also Molag Bal is NOT the Daedric Prince of the Undead. In specific he is the FATHER of the Vampires - yes. But he does not control the zombies, the skeletons, the spectrals, the wraiths of all kinds, the ghosts and so on and so forth.

In fact there is no daedric prince associated with the undead as a sphere. Meridia is associated with living energies. And is the anti-thesis to the undead. So yes..in that whole sentence the lore just collapsed in on itself.

And then Molag Bal decides he wants to literally pull Tamriel into his plane of ColdHarbour. It makes no sense, it doesn't fit the character and that's kinda impossible with the Towers and stuff. Or because if he could why didn't Mehrunes Dagon invade in the 2nd Era? What stopped him? Why is Molag Bal somehow managing to do this? I mean looking at the Four Score War - Dagon managed to come in and destroy Almalexia. This was just because of a witch making a deal with the daedric lord. You're telling me somehow Bal wants to literally take Tamriel into his Plane yet Mehrunes Dagon is just 'whatevs, I'm bored."

I won't go on the gameplay or engine for we all know how Bethseda works with engines. I dare recall when Skyrim's engine was called unique and then they went back to gambyro because of modders. Oh devs. <3

That and I'm not a huge MMO-fan to begin with.

So yes, we come up with questions that have no answers.

#1: When does TES Online take place? Answer; We have no exact clue. We can only roughly assume it's inbetween 2E 854 and 2E 862.

#2: Who are we and what are we fighting for? Apparently we're either an alliance between the Aldmer Dominion, and the Elsweyr Confederacy (Bosmer, Altmer and Khajit, The Ebonheart Pact (Argonians, Dunmeri and Nords) and then the Daggerfall-Convenant between Orcs, Bretons and Redguards.

Spoiler:

(Which is hilarious because the Redguards and Bretons have destroyed the Orcs home many times over..also Orsinium won't be rebuilt until 3E 399 by Gortwog. So where are the Orcs? Why are they fighting alongside their oppressors? Infact Orcs aren't identified in the 3E at all as citizens of the Empire or of any state up until the Warp in the West. Until that point Orcs are just likely barbarians and mercenaries to be used. And if that's the case than faction can have Orc players in it.)

And we don't know exactly what we're fighting for. Apparently we're fighting to be Emperor..of an Empire nobody cares about and that doesn't really exist and then we're trying to stop Molag Bal/Mannimarco from taking Tamriel and adding it to ColdHarbour? It's really confusing.

#3: whose the main villain? Apparently Molag Bal and Mannimarco for unknown reasons..

#4: Is Tiber Septim alive? Most likely, yes.
and finally:

#5: will TES Online contradict or add new lore? Contradict more likely than not.


Take it as you like and stuff.

[Mr.Argonian]

This is really interesting and points out most of the flaws in the ES:O lore.
To answer on of your questions I beleive the factions are figthing to expell Molag Bal for Tamriel somehow, or kill Mannimarco. Although why all the factions wouldn't just team up to destory the enemy who will literally destroy their world is beyond me. I think what's happening is lore is being thrown to the side in lieu of gameplay.

[Skrofler]

Meh!
Game balance rules when making a multiplayer game. Some lore elements will have to be changed and some toes stepped on. Get over it.

So yes, we come up with questions that have no answers.

#1: When does TES Online take place? Answer; We have no exact clue. We can only roughly assume it's inbetween 2E 854 and 2E 862.

The answer is probably more like 2E 585. I saw another interview where they said the game starts "10-15 after the Akaviri invasion was defeated". The lore would have to change to include a first Aldmeri Dominion at this time. No biggie.
That's around 4:00.
http://www.gameinformer DELETEME .com/b/features/archive/2012/05/21/creating-the-story-for-the-elder-scrolls-online.aspx

#2: Who are we and what are we fighting for? Apparently we're either an alliance between the Aldmer Dominion, and the Elsweyr Confederacy (Bosmer, Altmer and Khajit, The Ebonheart Pact (Argonians, Dunmeri and Nords) and then the Daggerfall-Convenant between Orcs, Bretons and Redguards.

Spoiler:

(Which is hilarious because the Redguards and Bretons have destroyed the Orcs home many times over..also Orsinium won't be rebuilt until 3E 399 by Gortwog. So where are the Orcs? Why are they fighting alongside their oppressors?

What you're implying is really that there shouldn't be a TES MMO with a focal PvP setting made at all. Well, apparently they want to make a TES MMO with a PvP setting, so they are going to have to make some poor excuses for gameplay and balance reasons. It's inevitable.
Poor excuse given below at about 16:00.
http://www.gameinformer DELETEME .com/b/features/archive/2012/05/07/the-challenge-of-elder-scrolls-online-an-interview-with-the-creative-director.aspx

#3: whose the main villain? Apparently Molag Bal and Mannimarco for unknown reasons..

Is it a problem that you don't know the reason why Molag Bal has been naughty when it's another 12 months or so until release? I don't understand the question.

#4: Is Tiber Septim alive? Most likely, yes.

Was he alive in 2E 585?

#5: will TES Online contradict or add new lore? Contradict more likely than not.

It will either change history and the lore or TES:O and TES6 will branch off to create different timelines.

[Velothi]

More than likely he was born around 2E 828 because the The Arcturian Heresy states he died at an age of 106. Ptomea misremembered and says he was born in 2E 288. That'd mean he died a age 650...

Annnd he can't be alive at 2E 585. But the game also can't take place in that time line because the Aldmeri Dominion doesn't even exist until 2E 830.

It will either change history and the lore or TES:O and TES6 will branch off to create different timelines.

Thing is - you can't break the dragon unless something happens that shouldn't. Like a mortal or mortals becoming gods *Zurin, Underking, Tiber and the Tribunal becoming Gods break the Dragon and changes history. HOWEVER, History must re-tread itself and then forms into one timeline. Many possibilities happen - such as in Daggerfall where everyone wins. Or with the Tribunal as mortals killing Nerevar yet them as Gods did no such thing. So 'different timelines' becomes redundant. Also I don't want to go backwards*

Some lore elements will have to be changed and some toes stepped on. Get over it.

Which is fine if they actually did it in an original or good fashion. They aren't so I'm calling them out on their [NUMMIT]ty game.

The lore would have to change to include a first Aldmeri Dominion at this time. No biggie.

Erm..So now they change it entirely. So apparently Paul is even more [NUMMIT]ty than I thought.

However - you can't include the Aldmeri Dominion. That's three centuries away. Specifically because the Aldmeri Dominion was formed because Camoran Dynasty began fighting for the Throne and Alinor saw this as a unnecessary event. That and unless the Pocket Guide was somehow..three centuries older than it actually is (which is odd because Tiber specifically orders for the Pocket Guide to be created) then it gets messy. Really messy.

What you're implying is really that there shouldn't be a TES MMO with a focal PvP setting made at all. Well, apparently they want to make a TES MMO with a PvP setting, so they are going to have to make some poor excuses for gameplay and balance reasons. It's inevitable.

Why even have an MMO? If it can't be done without breaking the lore and breaking it in a way where at least we can be amused then it doesn't need to exist.

Hell if the armors shown are more WOW trash than TES.

Also, Molag Bal usually has reasons for doing actions. Usually Daedra have reasons unless they don't in which there is no possibility to understand unless you look at the context. But this won't be that clever. That and if Molag Bal has some 'intent' then one can immediately assume; #1 that it'll involve screwing with the Dunmer. #2 It'll be mortal enslavement of some kind or #3 he'll be wanting somebody somewhere to do some petty task for him.

Doing something as large scale as more or less taking over Tamriel doesn't seem like him and would be more effort than it's worth. It also assumes that the Daedric Lords can also do this with the same ease as Molag Bal. If they want an MMO they could use Dagon. He's cliche enough. Plus he's had the intent to destroy Tamriel or take it over several times.

[Skrofler]

Meh.
So you're saying "NOooooo they can't retcon history!".

Well guess what? They can, and it sucks to be you.

Some lore elements will have to be changed and some toes stepped on. Get over it.

Which is fine if they actually did it in an original or good fashion. They aren't so I'm calling them out on their [NUMMIT]ty game.

So let's see what they can do. It's a little early to make a call. I do agree that the alliances are a bit far fetched, but also quite obvious why they're doing it.

[dzio]

And this is what happens when you treat game lore like serious historical research. I'm not saying the OP is wrong, but there's just no way the lore can stand up to the same kind of scrutiny and detailed analysis.

[Velothi]

So you're saying "NOooooo they can't retcon history!".

They can. If they they have a clever idea or do it in an interesting fashion.

You call an WoW-esque MMO clever or interesting?

Well guess what? They can, and it sucks to be you.

D'aw derp de derp D:

So let's see what they can do. It's a little early to make a call. I do agree that the alliances are a bit far fetched, but also quite obvious why they're doing it.

Considering that apparently they're even throwing down the whole 'Hey Tiber Septim is alive!' and now it occurring in 2E 585 - I can only assume they're either having a new idea or nobody in there has no [VEHK]ing clue at what's going on.

But, yes we do know why they're doing it. Profits at an easy rate and hopefully (for them, not us) a slightly successful game.

I'm not saying the OP is wrong, but there's just no way the lore can stand up to the same kind of scrutiny and detailed analysis.

..Except that when you look at lore - lore usually changes or has certain developments when A. something happens that doesn't usually happen. Aka Mortals become 'Gods'. This is usually via CHIM or through other means. (Heart of Lorkhan) That's when the Dragon Breaks and when actually trying to treat lore as history becomes messy due to all possibilities happening and then becoming one-timeline.

The thing is nothing happened in the 2E of either the 585 or even in the 2E 800s to break the Dragon. So at the moment lore in the 2nd Era is just characterized as the fall of the Reman Empire, and the Rise of the Septim Empire at the death of Emperor Zero.

[Skrofler]

So you're saying "NOooooo they can't retcon history!".

They can. If they they have a clever idea or do it in an interesting fashion.

You call an WoW-esque MMO clever or interesting?

I didn't say it has to be clever or interesting.
My point is that they can retcon history. I don't think they will be asking your permission first.

Considering that apparently they're even throwing down the whole 'Hey Tiber Septim is alive!' and now it occurring in 2E 585 - I can only assume they're either having a new idea or nobody in there has no [VEHK]ing clue at what's going on.

That seems to be the case with Bethesda too then since they're okaying it all. But then again, a lot might still change until release.

[deathm00n]

Just one thing: you think the lore is the same since arena? You think that they didn't had to rewrite any part of it? Even if they didn't do it, there is going to be more and more games released, you think they will always stay always true to the lore?

If we were talking about something writen by only one guy, and was complete, and wasn't a fiction then you can complain all you like.

Imagine one thing: that we lived in tamriel, that all the lore is real, and you are complaining that someone is telling the history wrong, would you be angry the way you are? Because someone can't recall or have forgotten somethings? And have you never heard "the history is written by the winners"?

They have choosen this era, because it doesn't have much about it, they tried their max to do a game(remember, a GAME, something you PLAY and it's meant to be fun, not a BOOK, something you READ and is meant to give information about things) that respects the lore and is actually fun(I think)

If you say to me that the lore can't be modified then you would only watch your character do things for himself in all the TES games, TES gives you the liberty to do what you want, live the history not watch it