Archery Versus Magic - More Powerful Than You Think?

[Gurney]

it will be advisable not to stir forth, but rather to retreat, thus enticing the enemy in his turn; then, when part of his army has come out, we may deliver our attack with advantage.

Yes, retreating is a viable tactic that can lead to winning the field, not a admitting of failure. Many historical battles have has this employed with great effect.

Lol, Sun Tzu always manages to look good on paper, but if the enemy is even reasonably smart he will realise the ploy and continue to sit still in his fortified bunker. At that point, by running away, all you are doing, is running away..

[Wolfie]

Lol, Sun Tzu always manages to look good on paper, but if the enemy is even reasonably smart he will realise the ploy and continue to sit still in his fortified bunker. At that point, by running away, all you are doing, is running away..

Luckily Skyrim NPC's are idiots and will follow you, just a good move that is NOT just running away

[The Dog Whisperer]

Magic potion involves either alchemy to make or speech to buy, that's a hybrid build. And zero-cost spells are great but what about all the encounters you face before you get that perk/s ?

Well stating that speech creates a hybrid build nullifies the entire argument; In that case every character who's ever sold an item is all of a sudden a hybrid build. lol
But when I played a pure mage I got by fine with the potions you find. You find absurd amounts. I never bought any and eventually it got to the point where I was selling surplus. [But maybe that makes me a hybrid..]

This time around I had zero ranged skills for my first 40 levels, excluding shouts obv., I never had problems.
The situation you proposed is pretty rare, but if it comes up just heal yourself as you try and find a way up to them, or use those shouts (Which everyone will have unless you stop MQ before killing your first dragon) to knock enemies down to you.

[Gurney]

Magic potion involves either alchemy to make or speech to buy, that's a hybrid build. And zero-cost spells are great but what about all the encounters you face before you get that perk/s ?

Well stating that speech creates a hybrid build nullifies the entire argument; In that case every character who's ever sold an item is all of a sudden a hybrid build. lol

That's my point, every character, no matter how specialised, needs to diversify just to cope with basic needs or emergencies. There are no pure characters, they are all hybrids to some degree.

[DorostheConqueror]

However there are still some gamebreaking mechanics. I think sneak is one of them,

Oh my god, will you people stop saying sneak is "overpowered/gamebreaking"!?!?! I'm going bald here, and the skin of my forehead is about scraped off from all my facepalming!! Look, if you're a sneak-thief, YOU AREN'T IN IT FOR A FAIR FIGHT! It's PROPER ROLEPLAYING to be "unbalanced" or "unfair" in that manner! JESUS.

ROLEPLAYING IS BROKEN AND UNBALANCED. IT'S NO LONGER NECESSARY. I'M GLAD BETHESDA TOOK ROLEPLAYING OUT.

[Wolfie]

\
That's my point, every character, no matter how specialised, needs to diversify just to cope with basic needs or emergencies. There are no pure characters, they are all hybrids to some degree.

I disagree with this, there is nothing that says only thifes can have speach for selling, yes it may be incressed by it but
Archery falls under worrior, thife would have NO form of atack the so dose that mean a thife class can not atack at all?

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Skills

[Eltee]

This isn't Warrior, Thief, Mage... This is Melee, Magic, Archery. An important distinction.

[Wolfie]

This is Melee, Magic, Archery. An important distinction.

in that case speach has nothin to do with it, which is not the way the thread went...
I'm confused, do we mean class here or fiighting style?

[Eltee]

I get the impression it is fighting style, as class has little pertinence to combat.

[Mattbott]

these specialised characters remind me of Robert Downey in Iron Man - the guy has two or three exceptional traits no one else has, and he combines them all to make the super suit

this is in effect what the character who is master enchanter/master poisoner/master smith/master archer does when he makes the bow that vaporises a dragon in 1 go

so i think that fact the game allows this is cool, but imo the characters who can do this should be considered in these terms and not as the logical way to play the game, nor should anyone feel left out at their piddling 64 points of damage

do not blame the game tho, it is not broken

except for backwards dragons and no resistances, which they are going to fix for me on the 360 soon

[Etyneo]

I find playing as a mage ridiculously easy. Dragonhide, two dremora lords, dual thunderbolts, and the master level calm spell if things get too hard. Damage output on it's own isn't extremely high, but that doesn't mean you're not powerful.

How many potions do you go through? All those things cost a lot of magicka. But rightfully so, as they are very powerful.
Here's how I see it: anything and everything in this game can be very powerful if used correctly. Mages have a lot of utility, and anything else has a high damage output.

However there are still some gamebreaking mechanics. I think sneak is one of them, because you can either: kill everyone and everything in 1 hit, or hit something, take a few steps back, and hit em again. Its just impossible to find anyone who is in sneak mode.
example

The other being paralysis poisons in alchemy. I mean, at level 60 they last for 13 seconds. Thirteen. Seconds. Paralysis. It's disgusting, and I don't use it.

Mine last slightly over 30 seconds...
<.<
>.>

[Sansreal]

What's all this about hybriding being necessary or better? I'm doing perfectly fine on my Two skills only character. Heavy armor and blocking are the only skills I ever use. Ever. I don't sell anything, buy anything, shoot arrows, go into stealth mode, or even use healing spells. Nada. All I am allowed to use is what I find or what I can earn through a quest (I was so happy when I found that Flawless Ruby for Peryite). And I'm doing great. It may take me a while to kill things using only Shield Bash, but that sped up after I got the Deadly Bash perk, which I got pretty fast, since I'm using the blocking skill a whole lot in every fight. Fire Breath and Frost Breath shouts are also invaluable, and I usually get to use them several times in each fight.
To be honest, the character started off as a joke, but now I'm sort of attached. I can't level anymore, since the only two skills I'm allowed to use are at 100, but I think it'll be fun to kill Al-duin using only a shield.

[NLN]

What's does a pure archer do when trapped in a corner by several melee fighters ?

A little late, but... FUS RO DAH then shoot them dead while they are still wondering wtf happened. But with good strategy, this kind of situation doesn't happen even in close quarters combat, as stealth shot will kill almost anyone in max two hits. I'm actually kind of scared of dropping archery on my next character, but I'll have to, because it's WAY overpowered for me, even without enchancements, and I "only" have an ebony bow.

I guess though that "overpowered" means a different thing for everyone. I don't think if anyone handed me their "overpowered" mage, that I could stay alive with it, I just don't get how magic works and mess it up every time. Tank characters on the other hand bore me to death, and getting them to that level is just... nooo. Running around in tombs without the sneak skill, where Draugr can attack you from any level... double no. I would say that sneak makes anything overpowered, but then I read people crying about it being useless in Skyrim, and I get the idea that some just don't know how to use it effectively.

[azuarc]

What's all this about hybriding being necessary or better? I'm doing perfectly fine on my Two skills only character. Heavy armor and blocking are the only skills I ever use. Ever. I don't sell anything, buy anything, shoot arrows, go into stealth mode, or even use healing spells. Nada. All I am allowed to use is what I find or what I can earn through a quest (I was so happy when I found that Flawless Ruby for Peryite). And I'm doing great. It may take me a while to kill things using only Shield Bash, but that sped up after I got the Deadly Bash perk, which I got pretty fast, since I'm using the blocking skill a whole lot in every fight. Fire Breath and Frost Breath shouts are also invaluable, and I usually get to use them several times in each fight.
To be honest, the character started off as a joke, but now I'm sort of attached. I can't level anymore, since the only two skills I'm allowed to use are at 100, but I think it'll be fun to kill Al-duin using only a shield.

That's freaking awesome. I had toyed with the notion of a shield-bearer character. Glad to hear it can work out. Pity there are no spiked shields or some such. You refuse to allow yourself to use ANY other skills, though? Ouch.

[Wolfie]

Pity there are no spiked shields or some such.

there is one http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Targe_of_the_Blooded

[roppen]

I think probably one of the best builds for hybrids would be a conjuration mage/archer. Mystic Bound Bow, 100 Daedric Arrows per cast, if you get cornered summon a Dremora Lord and flee then re-summon your bow and keep shooting. That's how I got through the game on Master.

[Redguard_Master]

in skyrim i gotta say hand to hand. You can combine alchemy, smithing, and enchanting to make your weapons 1 hit dragon slayers. course this does kinda overlap with archery though since you can do the same thing with bows.

[Derp53]

it's very satisfying to pick off a group of bandits without being noticed

[Mattbott]

yes i think that's where archery excels, sniping to take them out quietly or wearing down enemies as they close in
but then you need your favourite spell or weapon

shouts are also vital sometimes, ice form is a life saver at low level, gives you time to plan your next move when youre outnumbered

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Archery can be very powerful with the right perks and equipment, and a competent player.

I went with "Other" though. The best builds employ a variety of tactics, honestly. There's no such thing as the best skill in the game. It depends on the player. I could practice any skill to the point it was my main skill, even a defensive one like armor or a crafting one. In fact, mastering the three crafting skills in Skyrim is probably the single most OP way to play this game.

[Mr.smexy113]

I have found that magic tends to lend itself to other skills to get by. Destruction spamming works alright but not for all situations, you cant face archers as a pure Mage without heavy alteration because one shot kills you if you don't. Archery is stand-alone, which does allow for potency in the skills-player level equation and thus allows for weak enemies with a high archery skill which only needs a bit of strategic maneuvering to be efficient enough for master difficulty. Add sneak to archery and you're golden.

As for the argument about hybrids versus pure builds, it's true that each of the pure builds are powerful in their own way, and truly anything you can use properly will be powerful, but I find that the more hybrid a build is, the more powerful it seems to be. Pure warrior is great and pure Mage is awesome but battlemage is literally a one man army. A cross between the two with the most powerful aspects of each. Then you can take it a step further. Nightblade, a hybrid of all three classes. A one man army that can do everything the battlemage does, but can also do it silently and invisibly if he chooses.

[strobacaxi]

Anyone saying mages are underpowered has obviously never had the double souls perk and the conjure dremora lord spell. Bring all your arrows, bring all your swords, and your axes daggers and whatever you want more. You'll still get killed like the weakling mortal you are.

[Yaije]

Anyone saying mages are underpowered has obviously never had the double souls perk and the conjure dremora lord spell. Bring all your arrows, bring all your swords, and your axes daggers and whatever you want more. You'll still get killed like the weakling mortal you are.

But then you're a mage relying on a pair of melee powerhouses that beat everything to death.

How is that showing off magical prowess?

[Unionhack]

I find archery boring.
Yeah, it might be the overpowered combat in the game, but it's just boring to me.

I stick with melee and magic. Magic is ridiculously fun IMO but I'll take good ol' melee combat as a solution to a problem any day. Light armor + dual wielding is awesome.

[Mattbott]

All them have a weakness, but magic is pretty overpowered, considering that you can make enemies fight each other, make weapons and allies out of thin air, protect yourself from harm, and with the Quiet Casting perk, it can qualify for stealth. + Most characters are crippled if they don't use magic at all.

i think magic is the most versatile, but the levels of usefulness are balanced with other combat types. anyhting gets overpowered if you perk it to the max and have supporting skills (eg master enchanter, master smith, master weapon skill)


your usefulness in magic only lasts whilst your blue bar is full, thats a huge factor