True American/Anything

[The Raven]

Note on WW2: The Soviets did most of the work.

What the US actually did, was keep the Soviets out of Western Europe and parts of Asia after the war ended.

Yeah, since D-Day didn't actually happen at all.

[Stormborn]

To be honest USA has had it's day, now all that is left for you is a gradual decline and a side note in history. Hopefully, you handle it a bit better than we Brits did. Not sure who will be the next dominate nation China, Brazil, India seem well positioned.

[Veck]

World War 2. Just mentioning it should be an argument ender. Without the US the Third Reich would own one half of the world and the Empire of the Rising Sun the other. And they would be fighting over it till this day.

Many other countries, like the UK, France, the USSR, the many Resistances, and others, fought bravely against the tyranny of fascism, but time was against them.

Many of the users here compare things that their country is famous for, famous people and ideas or just smack insults back and forth. Without the USA, the Nazis and the Imperials would have replaced the world's ancient and great legacies with their own evil and twisted view of things.

Analysing the "what if?" factors in History is an incredibly difficult pursuit with too many variables to ever be truly accurate, but of the "big three" Allies I'd say the USA is the only one that WWII could have been won without. On your subject of "not enough appreciation" the Western world has never given all former Soviet states the respect they deserve for essentially protecting countries that hated them back. The USSR lost 22 million lives in the war compared to the 500,000 from the United States and suffered an economic blow from Hitler that's only been equalled by Boris Yeltsin, facts that everyone likes to ignore because some idiots decided to instill the notion that the post-Stalinist USSR was just as bad as the Stalinist one. As for evil, the notion of evil truly existing is fairly... archaic, to say the least. Even to this day the USA is still a country where racism, sexism and homophobia are seen as positive traits by a scarily large amount of the population, so even by the Christian notions of good and evil you're hardly clean.

[Ysmir]

Aye, America did it's part just like the rest of the world at that time. The Soviets did a good amount of work as well. SOE I mean come on? They did a ton of espionage work against the Nazi regime. Belgium and France resistance groups also had their work done....like other posters I think we all did a great part and we all came together to overthrow a evil regime. I do believe however, America was at the forefront of pioneering technology above all other nations. Both domestic and weapons tech.
Sometimes I do think that....that America's time is over as the "top" nation of the world...but then I think about our founding and a lot of people counted out the colonies and early America. But look what happened? We beat overwhelming odds. I do believe China is on the horizon but they got a lot to learn before they take over the world so to speak. As for Brazil? I don't see it unfortunately. India is well positioned. I do also believe the US does have it's fair share of racism but I also believe we are one of the most multicultural countries in the world...racism will always be there sadly as long as people stop looking at character and continue to look at skin color. But do I believe it will come to prominence? No. As for the homophobia, me as an American, has no problem with it. I never did. I when I was younger experimented with men for a few years but found out it wasn't my thing. I do however, dislike the "In your face" attitude of a lot of the gay community here in the US. You want to be treated fairly? Normally? act normal. When you start trying to grind on me, talk about how gay you are, and parade around...well yes...I am gonna be annoyed. I ain't over here saying "Look at how straight I am?" "I have sex with woman" and hopping around. Your gay and your proud fine, now please get out of my face about it. Another thing is I am by no means a religious person but when two gay folks use traditional vows especially ones that fall in line with Christianity and Catholicism to get married I can understand the Christian or Catholic's plight. Those words are holy for them and meant for a man and woman. You can't use the argument but what if they are.....because in both those religions it's sin to be gay or lesbian.

[Dark Lord Cam]

Y'know if we were to examine the economic and military losses of all the nations fighting WW2, we'd find that Great Britain comes out on top, though the soviets took more casualties. Congrats, Britain! You saved the world.

EDIT: Raven, I'm not denying the US didn't contribute significantly, what I am saying is that the Soviets fought bigger battles, took more casualties, and just about fought the Germans alone on the Eastern Front. Then the Soviets invaded Manchuria and destroyed a significant portion of Japanese military forces that had been kept in reserve, giving the US the chance to force the Japanese to surrender without having to invade.

[Stormborn]

Y'know if we were to examine the economic and military losses of all the nations fighting WW2, we'd find that Great Britain comes out on top, though the soviets took more casualties. Congrats, Britain! You saved the world.

Is that an American being sarcastic?

[Dark Lord Cam]

Nope. Economically, Britain comes out on top.

[Frost Mage]

He's right. Britain has the most economical power in the entire world.

[Dark Lord Cam]

Economists tend to look at the war (and all wars in general) and see who could and did contribute the most economically. Concerning World War Two, many economists analyze the amount of money spent in the war vs. amount of money the nation has vs. the nation's production possibility curve (which includes the classic "guns vs. butter" model) the answer becomes pretty clear:

[JockoBeans]

@ Veck

My notion of evil is very archaic? Go ask most of Europe in 1945. Heck, even ask the survivors of the Holocaust. I am sure they will say that the SS was just a bunch of men doing what they were told.

@Dean

Yes America would have been crushed in the long run, but I can tell you Europe will have been long gone before we would have fallen.

@Stormborn

A side note in history? Ehhh no. That is like saying the Roman Empire is a side note in the fact that they had no real importance.


Anyways, I do not believe that China or Brazil will come near being superpowers in the future.

They both suffer from too high a poverty level and they have too many neighbors with strong militaries and a deep hatred from them.

Argentina, Brazil and Chile have been rivals for control; of South America for years. Argentina has the strongest military out of all of them and it is one that still has veterans who tasted the sting of defeat from the Falkland War. They do not want to have it again against one of their own neighbors.

As for China, well India, Japan, South Korea, Vietnam and the Phillipines will not stand for any aggresive action anytime in the near future, and neither will Australia. China has a large army and the world's biggest population but a major war with any of them will be a recipe for disaster for it.

[Rhyme Asylum]

@ Veck

My notion of evil is very archaic? Go ask most of Europe in 1945. Heck, even ask the survivors of the Holocaust. I am sure they will say that the SS was just a bunch of men doing what they were told.

My notion of evil isn't archaic - ask the people who were living 67 years ago if my beliefs are outdated! They'll have a modern perspective!

Also, the SS were just doing what they were told? That sounds more apologetic than condemning. In order to even be in the SS, they'd have to be incredibly loyal. Soldiers are supposed to follow orders, anyway, regardless of whether or not they think what they're doing is evil. They don't have the information that their superiors do, since that could become a huge intelligence leak when soldiers are captured, so simply because they don't have enough knowledge, their perspective of their actions is meaningless.

[JockoBeans]

*sigh* Ryhme you took everything of what I said out of context.

Ask someone who lived 67 years ago if my beliefs are outdated? Some of them are still alive! Are you going to tell a holocaust survivor the SS were just men following orders?! If that is so then Mengele was just doing all those experiments in the name of Science and all Hitler really just wanted was to make Germany better.

Soldiers following orders regardless of how they think of it? So if they were told to jump off a cliff they would go ahead and do it? You do not know how soldiers do things, do you? The only way soldiers follow their orders is if they believe it can be justified. Most of the SS were devout followers of Hitler's ideaology. The Holocaust would never happened if they did not agree to carry it out.

[Veck]

Yes, Mengel was doing it for the science and yes, Hitler did want to make Germany better. What's hard to believe about that? And comparing an order to commit suicide and an order to kill isn't a logical argument.

Anyway, even if the US had saved our tea-swilling arses back in World War II, nobody on this forum would have any right to claim responsibility for it. Being descended from someone who fought in the war doesn't make you a hero of it the same way that Mars isn't an Einsatzgruppen officer.

[Derp53]

another debate, o what fun

[Veck]

This is a debate, not an argument. You don't come out of a debate hating the other person unless that person is Doros.

[Generalno1]

Ha.
Though, will have to ask:

Guys, please keep the thread like this,
A Calm discussion.

[Dark Lord Cam]

WW2 was won by the nations that fought it, as allies. Even Mexico gets to claim some credit for contributing pilots to fight Japan in American planes.

We all united against a common enemy and emerged victorious. Great job, world!

[Rhyme Asylum]

Heck, even ask the survivors of the Holocaust. I am sure they will say that the SS was just a bunch of men doing what they were told.

Are you going to tell a holocaust survivor the SS were just men following orders?!

<.<

So if they were told to jump off a cliff they would go ahead and do it?

That's pretty much what the Brits did in WW1. Blowing a whistle, so the enemy knew you were coming, then climbing out of the trenches and marching into gunfire. Almost all those troops knew they were going to die, and the majority of them did. Just look at the Battle of the Somme - 60,000 British casualties on the first day. They were told to 'go over the top' into heavy machine gun fire and barbed wire by their superiors, and they did. Do you think all of them did so because they shared the ideologies of their (tactically-inept but rich and influential) superiors, or because they had no alternative?

Note: All my historical knowledge comes from Blackadder Goes Forth, so there's that.

[Ysmir]

Oh yeah another good thing Hitler did for Germany....the extensive highways/freeways/Motor System. Autobahns. There we go I remember the name now. xD
Well technically the German people did it but you all know what I mean.

[Dark Lord Cam]

Yes, Hitler was good to the german people by getting their nation conquered and occupied for the next 60 years. Good job!

[Frost Mage]

Oh yeah another good thing Hitler did for Germany....the extensive highways/freeways/Motor System. Autobahns. There we go I remember the name now. xD
Well technically the German people did it but you all know what I mean.

I know what you mean! Fascism! 8D

[cowleyj]

Quite so. Hitler was a monster. Let us leave it there.

[Frost Mage]

Quite so. Hitler was a monster. Let us leave it there.

Why must we make such obvious statements like this?!? Oh yeah...

[Veck]

Monster? I wouldn't say so. Sure, the things he did were truly horrible to us, but in the end the man's motivations were, in his mind, just and for the good of a broken nation. And let me make it clear that I am extremely against Fascism so I'm not condoning it here. To my mind there have only ever been two monsters on this earth that have destroyed everything their country had spent generations building up for nothing more than their own deluded megalomania and they are Margaret Thatcher and Boris Yeltsin (yay, slagged off Yeltsin in this thread twice!). I'm not being serious here. As hard as it is to believe even those two thought they were somehow doing the right thing.

[Ysmir]

You all get so serious....I guess you fall into line though like I said earlier when people start talking about each others nations people get mad, get even, or get humorous. I take the humorous route cause there is nothing anyone can say about the US I don't know. If you dislike my country so much why talk about it? Fufufufu I like my country and I also like other countries.