A Song of Ice and Fire

[Stormborn]

[quote="Tarquin Dynatus"]

Spoiler:

What do you mean by poof?quote]

He means Renly is gay. Although it is never actually said, the books do imply that Renly and Loras Tyrell are lovers.

[Tarquin Dynatus]

I suspected so, as that is what the slang word means in my country. But I'll wait for Doros to confirm his meaning.

I don't see how being gay is a failing in a ruler, unless it prevents them from producing an heir (but most gay rulers in history were still able to make babies). William III, Alexander the Great, Constantine V - all had male lovers. Even Julius Caesar did. No one could argue any of those men did a poor job of ruling.

[DorostheConqueror]

I mean "poof" in the metaphoric sense, but yes, Renly is gay, so it works on multiple levels.

Mr. Tarquin- Caesar was ALLEGED to have a male lover, but you can't prove it. More to the point, there's a lot more to being a poof than merely being gay. Poofs are implicitly mincing and "girlish", concerned with parties and foppish dress and sniffing flowers, rather than hunting and pillaging and cutting septons in half. Weak bottom-types, unfit to rule. Contrast with macho-men, bears, and jailhouse bulldykes like Brienne. If SHE was wearing Renly's crown, she'd have the throne in a fortnight.

And I never said Renly lost BECAUSE he was a poor fighter. He lost because Stannis is the true and legal king of Westeros, blessed by the Lord of Light. His terrible military performance was what led him to squander all his advantages until it was too late, and why his death was no big loss to the realm. He was never going to be a decent king.

[Tarquin Dynatus]

Spoiler:

That's Mr Dynatus to you, Mr theConqueror

Caesar was alleged to have slept with Nikomedes of Bythinia, and enough people believed the tale to hail him as "Queen of the Senate" when he entered. It's not proof, but it gives one cause to speculate.

On your point about being concerned with parties and foppish dress, I disagree. Again we go back to Caesar. He was one of history's best conquerors but all contemporary historians agree that the man was very vain. He had body hair removed, always wore excellent perfumes and stressed terribly later in life about his encroaching baldness. Didn't stop him conquering Gaul and winning practically every battle he ever fought. Being a fop is only a problem if it causes you to neglect other priorities. It didn't distract Caesar, and it wasn't distracting Renly.

Renly's strategy was absolutely masterful. Why rush to King's Landing when the Starks and Lannisters are decimating each other and growing war weary? Renly progresses steadily, enabling him to cement alliances and build up even more support while his enemies grow steadily weaker. That's smart.

Renly led in person, and when battle was offered to him he did not shy away from it. He wasn't a weakling, nor a coward.

Stannis' worship of the Lord of Light obviously wasn't much use when his army was burnt to bits and then trampled into the dust by Tywin.

A sound strategist with incredible political savvy and a calm demeanour and understanding of court intrigue, Renly would have made a fabulous king.

[Roadcone]

Spoiler:

I have to agree with (Mr) Tarquin.

One of the points that is made several times throughout the books is that a good soldier does not always make a good king. Robert was a fantastic soldier, but it is shown over and over that he is not really a good king. Also, whilst it is true that Westeros has laws surrounding rulership, when all is said and done, it comes down to the contender with the most power. In some cases this is the man with the biggest or strongest army and best tactics (Robert) but sometimes something else, such as magic or Dragons (Aegon the first).

So, basically, what im saying is that strength of arms may make a king, but intelligence, compassion and a sensible disposition are what keep him in power.

[MARS]

giorg martini pls rite winds of winter moar quicklier pls

[Eltee]

pls doant dieee

[DorostheConqueror]

Don't even get your hopes up. GRRM is never going to finish the books. The sooner you give up and accept that, the easier it'll be to take the inevitable crushing disappointment.

[Kestral]

Got Dance today, dis gun b good.


Also, GRRM has a likelihood for this happening, and I'm still afraid for it. He'll go the way of Robert Jordan, and drive it further off the cliff. He told D&D with the show the ending to the books, and, if he does die, he'll have them finish the series with HBO and he won't have anyone else finish it. i.e., no more books.

[DorostheConqueror]

HBO's already ruined the show, and it's only two books in. If we let them end the series, the last book will be all about Jon Snow and a smart-aleck alien pal that only he can see, hitch-hiking across the country to get to Vegas, getting into all kinds of sexy, coming-of-age adventures.

Dance With Dragons is pretty good, but you've gotta wait for ages before he finally gets back to Arya's fate. You leave a massive cliff hanger for six years and then you make us sit through half the book before you get around to resolving it. Just get it over with right at the start, you fat [&@%!]!

P.S. DwDs Spoilers:

Spoiler:

Did anyone else feel like the "temporary blindness" thing was a total cop-out? What's next? Revisit the Red Wedding... AND THEN ROBB WOKE UP, IT WAS ALL A DREAM.

Please note that I wish no ill on Arya. She's one of my favorite characters, nice and evil and bloodthirsty, just the way I like 'em. But as distressing as the blindness angle was, I felt that GRRM could have done a lot with it, adding a whole new challenging dimension to Arya's character. In one sentence, everything you knew (or thought you knew) about who Arya was and what she was destined to do got turned on it's [&@%!] head. Then, a couple of Arya chapters later, oh, nevermind, DISREGARD THAT I SUCK COCKS. Back to business as usual!

DISPLEASED.

[Kestral]

HBO's already ruined the show, and it's only two books in. If we let them end the series, the last book will be all about Jon Snow and a smart-aleck alien pal that only he can see, hitch-hiking across the country to get to Vegas, getting into all kinds of sexy, coming-of-age adventures.

This is pretty pessimistic, even for you Doros. How has HBO ruined the show? I think the show was quite good, from each episode and every actor, it's quality. It cannot replicate the books exactly, no, but just because they write off a character (Selyse and Shireen are still in the show it seems, they've been casted for Season 3) or do a scene differently, this does not mean that they ruin it. Just about most of the fan-base disagrees with you on this one.e

[DorostheConqueror]

HBO's already ruined the show, and it's only two books in. If we let them end the series, the last book will be all about Jon Snow and a smart-aleck alien pal that only he can see, hitch-hiking across the country to get to Vegas, getting into all kinds of sexy, coming-of-age adventures.

This is pretty pessimistic, even for you Doros. How has HBO ruined the show? I think the show was quite good, from each episode and every actor, it's quality. It cannot replicate the books exactly, no, but just because they write off a character (Selyse and Shireen are still in the show it seems, they've been casted for Season 3) or do a scene differently, this does not mean that they ruin it. Just about most of the fan-base disagrees with you on this one.e

I went into it in some detail back in the "Jumped the Stark" thread. Cliffs Notes version: the show's not "just" changing scenes. It's radically altering key plot points, and the changes it's been introducing have undermined many of the most interesting characters.

Quorin Halfhand went from a taciturn badass who was willing to sacrifice everything without a moments hesitation, to bumbling old coot who got his entire squad fragged by some unmounted Wildlings in half a day. Jon Snow was recast as a Blue Falcon whose sole responsibility now seems to be serving as a stereotypical "lovestruck Hollywood romance interest", and Arya's entire journey from sweet tomboy to bloodthirsty terror has been completely ignored, in favor of... what? A few scenes where she hangs out with Tywin? Ramsay, one of the most pivotal characters in subsequent events, was COMPLETELY left out of his first major saga (one of the most gripping and memorable subplots in the series so far), leaving the writers with little room to introduce him properly. The Reeds were dropped, too, and there's absolutely no room to bring them in, either. Daenerys has been rewritten as an incompetent child who can't even keep track of her dragons, and of course, they killed off a number of her coolest advisers, thus screwing the series out of some key moments in future seasons (hot lesbian bedslaves, not on MY HBO!). And yet, HBO still found plenty of time to bore us to death with Robb (who is now, apparently, a petulant child) snogging his wife-who-is-not-his-wife-only-maybe-she-is. Thanks, guys. That's WAY better than Weasel Soup.

It's not just about changes. It's that the changes are crap; they all seem to have been done with an eye to simplifying the plot, streamlining characters to fit into safe, cliched plotlines and scenes written with focus-groups in mind. And I think you'll find that most of the fanbase agrees with me- hell, even the non-readers I've talked to all noticed a dip in quality during that last season.

Now, don't get me wrong, some of the changes were good. I liked many of the changes in the first season- casting Nymphadora Tonks as Osha, for example. Book-Osha is an absolute beast. Gimme TV-Osha, please. The extra focus on characters like Renly and Ned (especially prior to The Square) was unnecessary, but appreciated. And I did enjoy how Dany dealt with "suddenly and inexplicably black" Xaro at the end of Season 2. But in general, the second season has been taking a lot more liberties, rewritting huge sections of the saga, and it's painfully obvious that the staff writers are nowhere near up to the task.



Anywho's, you're right, I probably am being a bit too pessimistic. Judging by that last season, I doubt the producers would ever cough up the dough to animate a smart-aleck alien pal. It'll probably just be Jon Snow, hitch-hiking to Vegas all by himself.

[Kestral]

I don't have enough time to address everything so here's a few points:

The Reeds are being introduced in Season 3, they've been casted and everything.

Jon is starting to phase out of that, and I know Kit Harington has said that he's had to change his acting to avoid how blank-faced he was in season 1.

Danaerys is a child. I'm reading ADwD and surprised about how unready she is in some aspects, particularly in relations to dragons. She's 17/18 in the series (14/15 in the books) and with her youth comes some incompetence, particularly when she's up against the biggest schemers in Qarth. It is wholly realistic that Xaro and Pyat Pree could take away her dragons, particularly when Dany has so little protection.

Arya + Tywin scenes were great, and if you didn't like them, I feel sorry for you.

They can introduce Ramsay when they need to. Ramsay didn't get much of an introduction until ADwD anyways, and was only talked about and appeared for only a few scenes in the books. If you had Ramsay come in in the series, the viewers would be confused when everyone acts as if he's been in it. Introduce him as a new character, and everyone's fine.


The series has to be adapted to a show format, that's the bottom line. D&D have to juggle production times, dates, deadlines, and a budget that is too small for a series of this size. They've done excellent on a lot of things, and they need to compensate for a few more. Budget constraints controlled a lot this season, especially with the Battle on the Blackwater, which most of the budget was devoted to. (And, even then, you could view the constraints. Few panshots, a handful of sets, but it was still a spectacular episode.)

[DorostheConqueror]

So, what? Bran is just going to MAGICALLY come across the Reeds a half mile from the wall? "Hey Bran, we're total strangers! But you should, like, totally follow us beyond the wall, because, ummm, trust and character development that doesn't actually have time to happen! You won't be sorry, you'll see!" *facepalm*

Saying that Jon is TRYING to change is kind of a roundabout way of saying that TV Job sucks, but that's OK, at least your heart's in the right place. However, the main problem with TV Jon isn't the acting (which is perfectly adequate), it's the writing that sucks all the tense drama and conflicted heroism of Jon's part of the story.

"Unready she is in some aspects", emphasis mine. Dany is no mere child; she shows that time and time again. She's the Mother of Dragons. There are some chinks in her character, true- "flaws" introduced by her merciful naivety and her desire to right wrongs, overestimating her abilities and underestimating threats. But letting her entire household get murdered and all three of her dragons get robbed right out from under her nose? No, sorry, that's not one of them. Ask yourself this: if she's THIS bad in Season 2, what's goign to happen when she gets to Slaver's Bay?

Arya and Tywin's scenes were good compared to the rest of the show, but Arya + Roose > Arya + Tywin. Again, they've completely gutted a huge source of drama in upcoming events (Red Wedding, Azor Ahai in the North...) by ignoring the Boltons, and for what? A character we already know and understand within the show, who... well, spoilers.

And you forgot the Reek saga? The saga that really sets the tone for everything that happens north of the Neck from the moment Robb sets off for the Twins up till now? That perfectly cements Ramsay's reputation as a cunning, manipulative monster, and Theon as a confused, somewhat dim orphan with an identity crisis?

You are going to hate the rest of ADwD...!


Anyways, this topic isn;t about how bad the show sucks. This topic is about how bad the books suck, so let's get back to it, shall we? What have you found most irritating about ADwD so far?

[Kestral]

@Doros

Spoiler:

I dislike that Dany is impotent. I spent the entirety of AFfC thinking that, oh yes, Dany is gonna lay some smackdown with dragonfire. lol, nope. Let's be angsty over Daario! I get that she's basically 15, but seriously, so much build up for me. Now with Aegon, it's like, her entire plot can be rendered pointless.

I think Jon Connington and Jon are pretty cool, and I'm crossing my fingers for Davos. Maybe Manderly lied in AFfC, I don't know yet. Also, Ramsay is the opposite of a cool guy.

I imagine Ramsay as a mix between Nathan Explosion and Shan-Yu. I think Shan-Yu fits his personality perfectly.

[Belgarion98]

I'm almost at the end of 'A Game of Thrones', I cannot put these things down, and I just ordered the rest of the books online. YESSSSSSS

Favorite character: Jon Snow, Tyrion Lannister

Least favorite: Joffrey.

[The-Shadow-One]

I doubt anyone likes Joffrey, the sadistic little....

[Velvet LeChance]

Just finished DwD over my holidays and now have no need to fear the spoilers
My favourite characters are usually characters who didn't get a huge spotlight and where only side-characters such as The Hound, Barristan Selmy and Bron the Sellsword. In terms of main characters I always enjoy the Tyrion and Davos Seaworth chapters. I also like the Characters of Jon Snow, Jaime Lannister and Theon.
My least favourite characters are Cersei, Joffrey and Stannis.

[p-sto]

I really hated the Cersi chapters. Seeing her go into a downward spiral of paranoia really cemented a dislike of her. But upon reflection I'm starting to soften on her. I find it interesting how in the first couple books Robert Baratheon is painted as a flawed hero and what little is said of Rhaegar Targaryen is all bad. The last couple books seem to turn that around a bit with Cersi's negative memories of Robert and a number of people saying how kind and gentle Rhaegar was.

[Stormborn]

I suspect Rhaegar may not be as bad as he is portrayed, Wouldn't be suprised to find out the Stark woman he is alleged to have raped was willing and the liason resulted in one Jon Snow.

[p-sto]

Exactly and it was actually Robert who beat her to death out of rage when he found her.

[Belgarion98]

Holy crap. I just got past the part in A Clash of Kings, on page 502, when

Spoiler:

Renly's throat is slit and he dies.

jeez, George RR Martin really does know how to suprise a reader.
Now I just HOPE that

Spoiler:

Stannis will link up with Robb Stark and take on the Lannisters.

That would be epic.

[MARS]

You are a sweet child of summer.

[Eltee]

You are a sweet child of summer.

[Rose of Sithis]

You are a sweet child of summer.