U.S healthcare bill upheld by supreme court

[Wolf]

Frosty, you sound like a 15-year-old without a real care in the world. That may be because you are.

[Frost Mage]

Of all of the things I stress over and care about, American politics is not one of them. I mean, I'm going to care if Romney gets elected, but little stuff like this (debatable) doesn't concern me, to be honest.

[Dark Lord Cam]

Frosty, everything the Government does has the potential to affect you, directly or indirectly.

Did you want a new game for Christmas? Too bad, your parents are going broke because of high taxes. Did you want to go to college? Too bad, you got drafted to fight in Watchyoumacallitstan. Oh, I'm sorry, did you like having freedom of speech? You can no longer criticize the government or come up with wild conspiracies. They're watching you.

[Wolf]

Healthcare is one of the main concerns you will have when you get older (although hopefully by that time, it won't be a concern for anyone). For example: people that are well off that don't have healthcare can get wiped out by medical bills due to things like accidents. That's not something you ever want to have happen to you.

For a good scare, here's pricing for an appendectomy. It's a routine procedure, and appendicitis can be a sudden onset. http://www.healthcarefees.com/2012/03/a ... my-prices/

Edit: Cam, you've made your point. Please stop with the rhetoric. It's old.

[Frost Mage]

Frosty, everything the Government does has the potential to affect you, directly or indirectly.

Did you want a new game for Christmas? Too bad, your parents are going broke because of high taxes. Did you want to go to college? Too bad, you got drafted to fight in Watchyoumacallitstan. Oh, I'm sorry, did you like having freedom of speech? You can no longer criticize the government or come up with wild conspiracies. They're watching you.

I understand that. However, I try to avoid most politics, and just live. Not to say I don't stay informed, I do, I just don't sweat the small stuff.

[Wolf]

I just don't sweat the small stuff.

Healthcare isn't small stuff. And as much as it may seem like it, the mandate isn't small stuff, either. Having everyone (who is able to do so) pay the tax for this is the only feasible way this specific bill can work. If the courts had actually struck it down and people decided not to pay, we'd possibly be looking at another monetary collapse.

[Frost Mage]

I suppose you are right. To be fair, I didn't come into this thread with the most informed opinion on this specific topic. It's great that this is passed, but there's still a long journey to behold, and it won't be easy.

[Spiney]

I think a lot of people here care about American polotics because they're american.

However if this new system goes in, it'll be a step in the right direction. Not perfect, but I can only expect baby steps for America.

[Frost Mage]

I think a lot of people here care about American polotics because they're american.

However if this new system goes in, it'll be a step in the right direction. Not perfect, but I can only expect baby steps for America.

I kind of agree. We might just get out of this alive...

[Wolf]

I think a lot of people here care about American polotics because they're american.

However if this new system goes in, it'll be a step in the right direction. Not perfect, but I can only expect baby steps for America.

As Dark Spark so hilariously pointed out, baby steps are the fastest pace we can go in this country and still remain safe. Turning face with the changing of the breeze can lead to an unstable government.

[Minor Edits]

One small step for the nanny state, one giant precedent in the march to relinquish liberty.

To any readers from the distant future: it's really nice to know some people still know how to read. And in English, no less! Anyways, sorry. We had good intentions, but we didn't really think it through, and the majority of us regretted it almost immediately.

But in all fairness, you're stupid for living when you did. You should've been born right now. Except for soccer moms, social conservatives, liberal [censored], excessive breeders, sex-obsessed cultural trends, the insufferably vapid and ignorant nature of most individuals, the increasing radicalization of any organized spirituality, the exploitation and surrender of personal and private rights for security and economics, and the impotent frustration that comes with knowing that the whole world is going down the s***ter and we have no hope of stopping it, it was actually a pretty good time to live. Sucks to be you, though, huh? Just remember: you're getting our sloppy seconds on the Earth, and we wrecked that s***!

[Kerr]

Good. A small step but a good one.

[Wolf]

One small step for the nanny state, one giant precedent in the march to relinquish liberty.

To any readers from the distant future: it's really nice to know some people still know how to read. And in English, no less! Anyways, sorry. We had good intentions, but we didn't really think it through, and the majority of us regretted it almost immediately.

But in all fairness, you're stupid for living when you did. You should've been born right now. Except for soccer moms, social conservatives, liberal [censored], excessive breeders, sex-obsessed cultural trends, the insufferably vapid and ignorant nature of most individuals, the increasing radicalization of any organized spirituality, the exploitation and surrender of personal and private rights for security and economics, and the impotent frustration that comes with knowing that the whole world is going down the s***ter and we have no hope of stopping it, it was actually a pretty good time to live. Sucks to be you, though, huh? Just remember: you're getting our sloppy seconds on the Earth, and we wrecked that s***!

Because a narrow view is always contemporary, gents! This is the only time ever in history that has felt like the world was ending, I promise! But hey, don't take my word for it! I can't even read Latin!

[Eltee]

Mhm. I suppose that I'm slightly biased, in that if I lived in the good ol USofA my family would likely be dead broke, after a series of serious medical problems. Cancer being the most memorable one of them.

Seriously. I find it just mind-boggling how millions of people can live in a nation as industrialised as the US, which views itself, by and large, as being the best in the world, and not have health care of any kind. They can't afford it. What? Tough luck?

Dammit, I simply don't understand. I wonder what the statistic is for the amount of people that died in the US in the past decade whose deaths could have been prevented with procedures readily available to everyone in nations with the evil socialized healthcare.

I find it funny how one of the most common gripes about socialized medicine is the cost. Per capita, the US pays the most for healthcare of any nation on this planet.

[Avron the S'wit]

Eltee, you actually raise a good point about the "What? Tough luck!" mentality people have here.

This is a sociocultural legacy Americans have a very hard time overcoming, particularly the generation above mine. America is a country where we believe in something called the "boot strap strategy," coming from the phrase "to pull oneself up from his own bootstraps." This originated back in the colonial days of the West, where families moved into the frontier and made it on their own.

Except, of course, they didn't. There's an excellent book from a series that talks about this, called The Way We Never Were. Those who wanted to move West were actually given government assistance and grants in an effort to brave and colonize the great new expanse of the country and, while it was certainly hard and many lives were lost, we didn't so much as pull ourselves up from our own bootstraps so much as we did it with a little help from Uncle Sam.

We learn, then, however falsely, that people are able to rise up from nothing, become rich, and be happy. They live happily ever after - the so-called American Dream.

This is hardly the case. Even the biggest part of the American Dream, the suburb - the house with the big green yard, white picket fence, two and a half kids and a dog - was founded on practices that involved pushing out the less fortunate through a wide series of schemes, such as red lining or block busting. And while you certainly can rise from considerable nothingness to overcome a great deal of tragedies and beat back destiny, it is not easy, and the system, contrary to popular belief, is not really designed to help you. But this is a big part of the American ideology: that the rich and well off have earned their benefits, and they have no right to care about those who are less fortunate. They haven't worked hard enough? Too bad - tough luck!

Some people do abuse the system. Some people are stuck. It's not black and white. But in a country of such progress and wealth, we deserve to be compassionate to our neighbors and create systems that promote equality. Equality is what we founded this country on, and we have never achieved that goal.

The thing about America is that we are a tough people used to overcoming challenges, however long it takes, and we are proud. Very proud. Until we get over the hubris, we are a long way off from achieving healthcare. Romney supporters are already going nuts over "Obamacare." It's sad, and a bit ignorant as well.

[Wolf]

Oh, right, thanks for reminding me, Eltee! I need to find the page where I pulled this statistic, but Americans pay the most and get the worst healthcare out of any socialized country! Ain't that a [&@%!]?

[Minor Edits]

Because a narrow view is always contemporary, gents! This is the only time ever in history that has felt like the world was ending, I promise! But hey, don't take my word for it! I can't even read Latin!

Ending? No, not ending. Just moving forward with a few more errors upon which a few other errors can compound.

The nature of all government is to expand its authority and control into each and every aspect of life that it can. Every generation, it encroaches more and more into areas of life which are better left to individuals and civil society. The final result is the total end of liberty, the end of making choices in our lives that hold any meaning. This may not be in the immediate future, but that's why I addressed that to the distant future. Those people are the ones who will rue and lament how willingly the people of the past tolerated and even encouraged the encroachments of government.

I'm actually a fan of socialized medicine, in principle. It's just reality that keeps getting in the way. Some people from outside the US are quick to denigrate our government, and yet they then criticize the citizenry for resisting the usurpation of power and authority by that institution. Doesn't anyone see the irony in that. It's like saying, "God, that guy's computer sucks. It has no firewall, it's filled with spyware, and half the buttons are broken. I can't believe that moron doesn't use it for online banking."

Avron, I acknowledge the bootstraps mentality can be and has been perverse, no man is an island, there must be a societal safety net, and so forth. But if you swing that pendulum too far, it leads to the complete abandonment of the concept of personal responsibility, and it's replaced by entitlement and slavish dependence.

[Avron the S'wit]

Avron, I acknowledge the bootstraps mentality can be and has been perverse, no man is an island, there must be a societal safety net, and so forth. But if you swing that pendulum too far, it leads to the complete abandonment the concept of personal responsibility, and it's replaced by entitlement and slavish dependence.

Naturally. You have to make a system that eliminates abuse as much as possible, which is no small feat.

I think, though, that asking the entitled to think about what it's like to be not-entitled is not easy. I grew up in circumstances that make me appreciative of what I have now, so I give back to my community (volunteering, hard working, promoting, education). I think we would do well off to do that and make that a part of our culture.

I still think I deserve affordable, and good, healthcare.

[Frost Mage]

The "What? Tough Luck!" is a defense mechanism established after many tough times. It's stupid, and it doesn't work, but it's the truth.

[Eltee]

Just because it's instinctual, just because we're naturally selfish, doesn't mean that we're meant to be, that we can't be otherwise.

EDIT: I seem to have started the trend of Wolf avatars. ImmaBhappy.

[Frost Mage]

Just because it's instinctual, just because we're naturally selfish, doesn't mean that we're meant to be, that we can't be otherwise.

Some people are stubborn.

[Eltee]

Just because it's instinctual, just because we're naturally selfish, doesn't mean that we're meant to be, that we can't be otherwise.

Some people are stubborn stupid.

[Frost Mage]

I think that fits better, actually.

[Lorkmir]

"I am prepared to be hated for loving people and wanting to help them." - Jimmy Carter.

I find that quote fitting for my stance on the issue.

I think that any bill that is aimed at helping people to be a good one, especially if it makes wealthy people angry. When you come to the realization that you will never be wealthy, you stop caring about the rich and what they think because they only abuse the system that fools worship.

[Minor Edits]

I think that any bill that is aimed at helping people to be a good one...

Every poly-sci major in the world just face-palmed without knowing why. Terrible. terrible things have been done with the aim of helping people.