It's the economy, stupid!

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Re: It's the economy, stupid!

Post by Rhyme Asylum »

Arterion wrote:To recap from my post in the Political Orientation thread...

Now to clarify, in Slovenia a vial of methadon used daily to "cure" the addicted of heroin costs 73,20 Eur. An addicted person has to perpertuate the treatment every single day. Now an addicted person in a healthcare institution costs the state almost 280 Eur a day. An average recovery process for an addicted person ranges from a few months to almost two years.

This prices increase exponently when we speak of Italy. A vial ranges around 93,70 to 108 Eur while a treatment ranges around 400 Eur per day.

Now this prices do not include medic salaries, insurance, transportation, taxes and other things.


I am quite familiar with the prices since my ex girlfriend worked in the nearby hospital as a probant doctor and she had to do several turns in the clinic that treats the addicted and dispenses the methadon.

And we cannot even use those dregs for forced labour...
I used to be Utilitarian to that degree, until I realised that I didn't want to flip burgers for a living. Denying treatment to drug addicts is comparable to denying treatment to people who partake in incredibly dangerous extreme sports. They're both essentially the same situation - a person performing an action which is known to carry potentially deadly risks, for the sake of a 'rush'. And if you deny treatment to people who enjoy the most dangerous physical activities, what about the next most dangerous? And the next? Is there some statistical cut-off point?

In your world, would a smoker receive better healthcare than someone who snorts cocaine, since the taxes on cigarettes help pay for medical treatment? If you truly believe what you're saying, then either you're being inconsistent, or you hold a rather unreasonable stance (with regards to the extreme sports argument).
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Re: It's the economy, stupid!

Post by House of the Wolf »

Arterion wrote:A 7.62 bullet costs on an average 70 cents to 2 Eur. An addict costs 70+ Eur. Why not use the cheaper solution?
I'm guessing it has something to do with humanity, right to life, etc. You know, all the crappy stuff that keeps people like you alive...
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Re: It's the economy, stupid!

Post by Arterion »

Well a sportsman if he is successfull will have a chance to earn some rewards, and do some tangible things for his state. Be it appear in a commercial, sponsor a new model of watch or pay taxes for his increased income if he reaches the highest levels of his activity.

Simply, you can monetarise a sportsman, while an addict is just a burden with no chance to bring some money back.


On a side note I consider the "human rights" just another way to impose an embargo or a profitable military action. Sadly even that excuse is growing old.
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Re: It's the economy, stupid!

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Riiight...so really, the US should have shot dead every Italian soldier as they surrendered in WWII?
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Re: It's the economy, stupid!

Post by Rhyme Asylum »

I'm not talking about something like cycling or running - more like swimming with sharks without a cage. Something which no company would want to sponsor, and from which no money will be earned. If you believe drug addicts shouldn't be treated, surely you think the same of people who partake in activities like this. If not, what's the difference between the two? Both participants know the risks... and both will require expensive medical treatment. Both 'did it to themselves', and both will probably continue to do it later after they get out of hospital.

Do you think the hypothetical extreme sportsman should be treated the same as the drug addict, or not? If not, why not?
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Re: It's the economy, stupid!

Post by Arterion »

Is is called the political use of force. Should they have any benefit from that, than they should. Soldiers on both sides are expendable. But they needed a base to block the communists in southren europe, especially the then quasi soviet Yugoslavia under Tito (before he went "neutral) so it was more useful to keep the good relations with the italians.

All I can say as a future lawyer is that the "human rights" are a great legal construct...to wage war. And war is profit. You only need an excuse to declare it.


Sportsman = Profit

Drug Addict = No Profit, Deficit

Any more explanations needed?
Last edited by Arterion on Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: It's the economy, stupid!

Post by Rhyme Asylum »

I can tell that your keen attention to detail will aid you in your hopes of becoming a lawyer. Good luck, sir.
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Re: It's the economy, stupid!

Post by House of the Wolf »

Arterion wrote:Any more explanations needed?
Nope, no more explanation needed. I've seen quite enough to conclude that your position is little more than a daft, baseless over-extension of an extreme and senseless argument.

Just for the sake of an example: Adolf Hitler used arguments similar to yours--simply take out Jewish/non-Aryans, and add in gays/addicts.
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Re: It's the economy, stupid!

Post by Arterion »

Well it just so happens that I have been working in a legal studio for the past three years. I enjoy it but my aim is the commissariat.

All I am saying is that a sportsman, while perpetuating a risky activity actually can be profittable if he is good enough. We all know the buisnees that can be done from various sports, even at their basic levels. A buisnees that is higly profittable and in the way of sponsors even a good way to make money turn around from privates to the public sector, in the case of public sport clubs, agencies...

Also while the sportsman may require a great deal of time and healthcare to prosper there is a whole buisness sector out there who pumps money out from sports.

An addict is simply a person who fell into the spiral of drugs and taxates the statal healtcare system in order to be once returned to the society...a result that comes one in ten. So where is the profit in this apart from a pharmaceutical enterprise and some doctors, all payed from our pockets, from our taxes?

It is profit that is important. You are not profittable for your society...than you should be removed or made profittable, simple as that.

Now I will be off for today, I work tomorrow. Good Night, and good conversation...
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Re: It's the economy, stupid!

Post by House of the Wolf »

Most people fall into their addictions through misfortune of circumstance. Very few jump into it by choice. Where someone is raised, how they're raised, and their general environment are all primary causes of this behavior. Instead of taking the "easy", ignorant, low-brow way out, why not focus on improving their surroundings from an early age, provide them better opportunities growing up, and educate them on the consequences of such substances? A preventive approach has always proven far more cost-effective than any reactive approach.
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Re: It's the economy, stupid!

Post by Rhyme Asylum »

House of the Wolf wrote:Nope, no more explanation needed. I've seen quite enough to conclude that your position is little more than a daft, baseless over-extension of an extreme and senseless argument.

Just for the sake of an example: Adolf Hitler used arguments similar to yours--simply take out Jewish/non-Aryans, and add in gays/addicts.
Ah, the good ol' allusion to Hitler. Not many a thread goes by without him being brought up at least once. Unfortunately, it's an ad hominem, and a logical fallacy. That's not to say you're wrong - I've no idea about the majority of what Hitler said, and it's perfectly feasible that Arterion's post was very similar to one of Hitler's arguments. However, your implication is that Arterion's view is wrong simply because it was shared (or very closely related to a belief held) by Hitler. The validity of arguments are irrespective of the source. I'm not intentionally being an [&@%!], I just wanted to point that out.

It's a shame, you could have picked from hundreds of flaws in his argument, and you went for a fallacy accidentally! You could have pointed out that he referred to himself as a future lawyer, which is an appeal to authority (a logical fallacy) and irrelevant. You could have pointed out the fact that he ignored our arguments, and refused to both imagine a hypothetical situation, and explain the reasoning behind his conclusions, from which I infer that he's not attempting to be genuine and open, rendering this debate pointless.

Arterion, I have a few questions, but it's fine, I'm not expecting an answer. First, why are soldiers expendable? Are they worth less than regular civilians? What about people who are drafted against their will? Why are human rights great for waging war? Why is war profit? What do you mean by 'profit'? Is all war profit? Is profit, a concept we invented, important enough for members of our race to die over? Why? If war is profit, and you see profit as something of utmost importance, then why isn't a love of war universal and open? Why can't civilians know that wars are being declared purely for the profit? Why aren't soldiers laying down their lives in the name of profit?

In answer to your question, yes, more explanations are needed. By which I mean, you gave none in the first place.
Last edited by Rhyme Asylum on Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: It's the economy, stupid!

Post by House of the Wolf »

@Rhymer: I was lazy, and didn't feel like bouncing another long-lined argument off the hollow-wall that is Arterion. Done it before--wasn't in the mood this time. Went with what I felt was a brief, but apt, analogy. You are correct, though, sir.
Arterion wrote:Well at least thanks to the democratic elections I can put my vote for the right wing parties. Hopefully some austerity laws will pass and the social state will be kept in check.
Also, Arterion, I see your desire for austerity, and raise you a Paul Krugman:


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Re: It's the economy, stupid!

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Rhyme Asylum wrote:
Arterion, I have a few questions, but it's fine, I'm not expecting an answer. First, why are soldiers expendable? Are they worth less than regular civilians? What about people who are drafted against their will? Why are human rights great for waging war? Why is war profit? What do you mean by 'profit'? Is all war profit? Is profit, a concept we invented, important enough for members of our race to die over? Why? If war is profit, and you see profit as something of utmost importance, then why isn't a love of war universal and open? Why can't civilians know that wars are being declared purely for the profit? Why aren't soldiers laying down their lives in the name of profit?

In answer to your question, yes, more explanations are needed. By which I mean, you gave none in the first place.

Soldiers are payed and trained to fight, kill and die if necessary. Unless they do this they are a waste of money. Every country invests in its army and invests countless funds, for what reason? To have the soldiers stay in the barracks and clean the trucks? No, unless they are out there and fight for something tangible they are useless. And if they fight they have a chance to gain something for their county, be it an oil rig, a piece of ground or simply political power to levy. If you have a resource (soldiers) you should use it, not squader it, but use it. If thousands die to secure an oil rig, well the return in money more than justifies the investment of manpower. On a side note I consider the civilians much more expendable...

I consider a man worthy as much he is worthy to his country and state. A doctor, a lawyer, a buisnessman, even a soldier, have some tangible worth for their societies, suerly much more than a drug addict, a line worker or others. But all evetually should be considered expendable. The chinese are profittable just becouse of that. There are far too many people around, why not use them?

The human rights, while a collection of nice words are a great excuse for the international organisations to force a punitive action (war) on a country or a people. With the pretense of protecting the human rights for example America siezed Iraq and build a Coca Cola factory there, Europe got a nice excuse to run again the weapon industry, the oil... well you get the idea. Same for Lybia, the intervention was costly and under the pretense that we are the so called "paladins of democracy and human rights", as soon as the engagement ended the first coorporations were already repairing the oil fields, all this under the UN flag. See the irony? Now Syria is kinda a bad investement and a political hot nut thus the UN is redundant to take action, for the profits for the interested countries will be low.

It is not my fault that the human rights are interpreted as a political manifest and a legal structure that allows the westren countries to wage war. If you ask the iraqi or the afgan people you will see that the so called human rights are still a dream down there, for there is no interest to enforce them. The longer a conflict runs, the better, as long as you have the upper hand.

Why is war profit?

Well it is simple, first the war industry is a great buisness. Thousands of people work in the weapon factories and every metal or electronic industry can be quickly switched to a weapon industry. In war time millions of weapons have to be assembled, tested and shipped, as well as thousands of people mobilized. The countries take massive debts to build their armies but the return is great indeed. If a country enters war nowdays there are a great many opportunities for profit. They sieze by force new markets, secure natural resources, obtain political power, dictate in the international circles and are able to test and develop a myriad of new systems, systems that if they prove viable will sell like hot croissant, again profit.

The major thing in war time is the sudden influx of money in all sectors. Massive contracts for ship/airctaft/armour building, technology, research, all benefit from this influx. Millions of workers are called unto the assembly lines and between soldiers shipped off and workers back home, a good number of people have money in their hands. Money that is returned into the national bonds as it happend in most of the wars in the previous century.

The profit I speak is much more than just money or resources. Is the political power that is the great prize. If you win a war you can dictate the rules, the rules that will to an extent benefit your country or your people. Being the victor in a war is perhaps the most proffitable enterprise that a country can accomplish and even if you loose a war there is much to rebuild, thus again it is profittable. If a country looses war than it too can have some margins of profits, building contracts, the elimination of political parties/opponents with the consent of the public, integration in the victor's society which proved superior...well you get the idea.

Now to the last questions and than I am off, I have a wagonload of work to do. Why the civilians and the soldiers are illuded? Well it is simple, war is a bloody buisness. While the ultimate goals of the war are precluded to the masses it is beneficial for a country to have a stable relationship with its people and a solid political consent. Thus the human rights are used as an excuse, the soldiers are brainwashed with all kinds of messages, the religions preach their way into the masses. All to keep the people ignorant of the true play behind the war and gladly work them to death or make them happy to throw themselves at the enemy guns.

War is not universally liked as in it the common man suffres, but those who understand its reasons are more than willing to gamble the lifes of their subjects. War is a phenomena of human society as much as a storm is a phenomena in nature. It is intrinsic to our society, a vent to steam off and earn some profit with it. A great solution to a global economic crisis.


I appologise for my English, fell free to correct me if you spot mistakes. I would really appreciate it.
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Re: It's the economy, stupid!

Post by House of the Wolf »

The biggest problem with your assertion is that you assume that everyone copies and emulates your daft utilitarianism, when they, frankly, don't. A few within positions of leadership might hold that perspective, or some version of it, but, realistically, most don't. Most view, openly, human rights as a fundamental part of society and its betterment--not as some tool to tame the masses.

Your theory (which is all that it is--a theory) is wrong in nearly every sense. China does "well" because it has been paid billions by the US and other Western interests over the past decade. Before our debts to them, they were an ailing society on the brink of tearing themselves apart.

If your view is that a man is only as valuable as his occupation and his ability to continue working, then I propose an experiment--someone should (hypothetically speaking, of course) shatter both of your knees, and shins, and show you what it means to be literally unable to work. Maybe then, in your own insane, daft little world, someone would put you down because you can no longer serve society in your crippled-state. People who take your daft view on the world and legitimately think it should come to fruition typically have an ailment all their own that they're simply outwardly-compensating for. Usually, if they're severely homophobic, they're very likely homosexuals themselves; if they hate leftist ideas of socialism and the government paying for other people, they very likely think the government should pay for them; and, usually, if they view that people are only as worthy as their social-capabilities, they're quite invalid themselves. In summation, Arterion, are you a crippled (mentally/physically), gay commie? It sure seems that way.. Image

The biggest reason we, the US, did so well before the turn of the century was because we took care of our own, and gave everyone an equal opportunity. If someone fell-out because of an illness, we helped them back up; if someone wasn't able to work for one legitimate reason or another, we sustained them until either they were, or we found alternatives for them. It wasn't until rightists took office, did everything they could to send us to war, and sabotage any form of social welfare (through de-funding, primarily, or simply making it impossible to implement properly).

If generally leftist ideas don't work, then why is it that the Scandinavian holds so high amongst the strongest economies, at the moment? And their states are generally larger than Italy's, so that argument is already out the window. They protect their citizens, hold their workers on high, and provide for the general welfare of their own--even if they're gay and/or addicts :shock:

So, you can either be a stereotypical Italian cruise-ship captain and lead your boat to capsize with your daft rightist/utilitarian idealism, or you can take a look around and try to emulate the Swedes' example of how to properly run a nation.
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Re: It's the economy, stupid!

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Oh how interesting, one who preaches not to offend people now is offending a fellow member of the forum. And yes, in this case I am offended.

Since time immemorial people have been used for far less than mere oil barrels and foregin markets. The world is not a sunshine place where all is good, all ideas good and all people good. The resources are dwindling, the westren countries are flooded with unemployed and you speak of a social state. Please open your eyes. People cost a state. Those who managed to get a work are able to contribute to society, the others are plain burden, yes burden.

If I walk across my street and go to check the social agency I would see hundreds of people listed as unemployed, hundreds of euros that go to people who do nothing for their society. Now I do not stress for an invalid worker or a person who lost his job when past forties but i stress for the mass od alcoholics, addicts, wannabe artists and other people who leech the money without doing nothing in return. Is that right?

And we cannot even coherce them into something useful. Now check how many people return to crime after being in prison, how many people take up drugs once clean and how many social dregs have not even the pale wish to work. That is what I do not agree, with those people.

I am a member of a hardworking family, my parents instilled into me the working etic. So why me and my family have to study and work, pay taxes and earn money only to see it wasted on such people...

And do not stress with your offensive remarks, if there is little else that you can say than your arguments are invalid for it is you who has to post up some examples, but it seems that you are unable to keep a civil conversation with a person assaulting your view without offending it.

So much for educated people here...
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Post by Avron the S'wit »

Guys, please remember this is an educated and mature conversation that requires everyone to keep an open mind. Let's leave stereotypical and offensive comments at the door...and quips at cruise ship sailors, too.
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Re: It's the economy, stupid!

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Arterion wrote:-snip-
Image Your views offend me.

If I offended you simply by pointing out your fallacies, my bad. I'll try not to, anymore. I'll simply kiss-up to you, and tell you how clever you are. :roll:

Look, the fact is that people are not expendable; everyone has a purpose of some kind. Instead of saying we should get rid of people who you--you--deem as unfit for society, why not start from the bottom-up and educate children from an early age. Provide people a fair opportunity and reasonable security, and they will thrive. Give all of the money to a small group, and tell the rest to contribute or drop-dead, and you have what we're seeing in much of the EU and the US.

I don't care about your background. I don't. You have no real idea what my or my family's backgrounds are, neither, and it doesn't matter in this conversation. What matters are your viewpoints, and they are horrid. Suggesting that people who don't fit into your worldview should be put-down or left to rot is what we call "psychotic", "unbalanced", and "deranged". I could go very deep into that area of psychology with you, but this isn't the place for that.

What this is the place for is a mostly anecdotal discussion about economics. Austerity doesn't work, especially in a recession/depression. The government needs to be the life-support for the private sector; or, if you will, the jump start to keep the capital flowing until the market can once again sustain itself.

A state's job isn't to save money--it needs to be effective/efficient, which isn't the same thing--a state's job is to ensure that everything is in balance and maintain a level of fairness and equity for all involved. And that includes people that you don't agree with, Arterion, be they old, sick, addicted, or (God forbid) gay.
Avron the S'wit wrote:Guys, please remember this is an educated and mature conversation that requires everyone to keep an open mind. Let's leave stereotypical and offensive comments at the door...and quips at cruise ship sailors, too.
Yes, ma'am. Sorry.
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Re: It's the economy, stupid!

Post by Rhyme Asylum »

Sigh, nevermind.
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Re: It's the economy, stupid!

Post by Arterion »

House of the Wolf wrote:
Arterion wrote:-snip-
Image Your views offend me.

If I offended you simply by pointing out your fallacies, my bad. I'll try not to, anymore. I'll simply kiss-up to you, and tell you how clever you are. :roll:
You offended me by denoting me as a thing that I am not, listing on me facts that are not, speaking of me as I am not. I dont remember offending anyone in my 100 + posts, but sir you just did it here and in the Political Orientation thread. Offending when you lack of arguments, devolving the debate into insults, and yes those were insults to my person, nothing short of that.

The state should enforce the rule of law, use its subjects for some tangible goals and provide structure instead of social benfits. There are far too many people on this world, and since time immemorial we have always been a society divided into a hierarchy, with upper and lower classes with useful people and disposable people.

My problem as you might imply is that I do not see the world as a sunshines and rainbows place, I see it as a cold, grey place where no one will ever be equal. I am cofident that there are many people above me in status and many more below. It is called hierarchy and it functions to govern society. The scarce resources of a state should be used for tangible goals and not wasted on dregs.

Basic rights yes but an equal start for all people is an utopia at best. In lieu with the conversation I agree on strict austerity measures and a clean cut of the social state. This measures are not intended to save money but to prevent it to go to the social groups that are useless for a state and its people. Leave those dregs to their destiny and use that money on tangible things like instruction and industry.

Also the worker rights are now more of a hindrance than of benefit. Enterprises cannot fire people and thus prevent bankruptcy but they are forced to keep quotas, piling debts on debts. Sure some people are sent on the street but this numbers are far from optimal in many sectors who barely struggle to keep on.
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Re: It's the economy, stupid!

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Arterion wrote:You offended me by denoting me as a thing that I am not, listing on me facts that are not, speaking of me as I am not. I dont remember offending anyone in my 100 + posts, but sir you just did it here and in the Political Orientation thread. Offending when you lack of arguments, devolving the debate into insults, and yes those were insults to my person, nothing short of that.
Dingleberry, I wasn't insulting you; I was pointing out that people with as strong of hateful feelings as you express about certain things--homosexuality, in this case--tend to be doing so to hide the fact that they are those things themselves. And if you take it as an insult, when I point this out, then good..it means I'm not far off the mark.
Arterion wrote:The state should enforce the rule of law, use its subjects for some tangible goals and provide structure instead of social benfits. There are far too many people on this world, and since time immemorial we have always been a society divided into a hierarchy, with upper and lower classes with useful people and disposable people.

My problem as you might imply is that I do not see the world as a sunshines and rainbows place, I see it as a cold, grey place where no one will ever be equal. I am cofident that there are many people above me in status and many more below. It is called hierarchy and it functions to govern society. The scarce resources of a state should be used for tangible goals and not wasted on dregs.

Basic rights yes but an equal start for all people is an utopia at best. In lieu with the conversation I agree on strict austerity measures and a clean cut of the social state. This measures are not intended to save money but to prevent it to go to the social groups that are useless for a state and its people. Leave those dregs to their destiny and use that money on tangible things like instruction and industry.

Also the worker rights are now more of a hindrance than of benefit. Enterprises cannot fire people and thus prevent bankruptcy but they are forced to keep quotas, piling debts on debts. Sure some people are sent on the street but this numbers are far from optimal in many sectors who barely struggle to keep on.
The problem with the assertion that your view has been implemented "since time immemorial" is that societies have generally evolved. Sure, there's some general waxing and waning over time, but our general understanding of the world and our interactions within it have essentially grown and improved compared to a millennium ago.

It's not "utopia" to expect that a child get an education, and learn the tools they need to survive in your "cold, grey place where no one will ever be equal". The government's role is to safeguard that opportunity for education. Neither the government nor society are served well, at all, by an uneducated, unprepared population.

The problem with your viewpoint is that it leads to racism and eugenics--something you've professed with adoration in the past. Unfortunately, that viewpoint was practiced and ultimately torn-down and destroyed nearly 70 years ago by those with a bit of sense, and it has since been debunked and proven little more than a madman's dream.

Something we're forgetting in this entire exchange, btw, is the fact that, in a true Democracy (Republic or Direct), the people are the government. In a Republic, we (ideally) elect our best, but they represent us none the less. We ultimately dictate to the government what we want, not the other way around. And as such, we are only as strong as our weakest person. Therefore, it is not the government's role to dictate to us, those that have elected them, who is worthy/useful and who is not. It is their role to instill guidelines and carry-out objective arbitration in order to ensure the fairness of opportunity.

Keep in mind, at any point within your worldview, you are expendable as well and could be deemed as unfit for society by someone within government who simply doesn't like you.
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Re: It's the economy, stupid!

Post by Arterion »

House of the Wolf wrote: Dingleberry, I wasn't insulting you; I was pointing out that people with as strong of hateful feelings as you express about certain things--homosexuality, in this case--tend to be doing so to hide the fact that they are those things themselves. And if you take it as an insult, when I point this out, then good..it means I'm not far off the mark.


Offending again, you imply things that I am not. I am free to choose whomever I hate and I do it on a rational basis not by some preconcepts as you imply, and use to offend since they appear in every of your posts in this section. I hate the deviants for I see them as a faliure in society and nature, something innatural, I hate the communists for they ruined my family and I hate the libertines for they are an anathema to a lawful person like me. As I have said several times, I choose order instead of freedom and I actively work to ensure that my views are rappresented. I speak my mind, but I do not offend other members like you continue to do.
House of the Wolf wrote:Something we're forgetting in this entire exchange, btw, is the fact that, in a true Democracy (Republic or Direct), the people are the government. In a Republic, we (ideally) elect our best, but they represent us none the less. We ultimately dictate to the government what we want, not the other way around. And as such, we are only as strong as our weakest person. Therefore, it is not the government's role to dictate to us, those that have elected them, who is worthy/useful and who is not. It is their role to instill guidelines and carry-out objective arbitration in order to ensure the fairness of opportunity.

Keep in mind, at any point within your worldview, you are expendable as well and could be deemed as unfit for society by someone within government who simply doesn't like you.
And in this democracy I choose to vote for the right wing parties as I am free to do, as the Greeks have done seeing the results in the last elections. This ideas will never be removed from our minds, in fact they gain a greater support by the day. People are tired of immigrants, they are tired to see hippies and spineless leftists run the show. The people want security and order and they remember that they can hate too, for it is their costitutional right to hate, as it is mine.

And yes I am more than expendable and I have no problems with that. As long as it serves a purpose or it will benefit my people and state.
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Re: It's the economy, stupid!

Post by House of the Wolf »

Arterion wrote:Offending again, you imply things that I am not. I am free to choose whomever I hate and I do it on a rational basis not by some preconcepts as you imply, and use to offend since they appear in every of your posts in this section. I hate the deviants for I see them as a faliure in society and nature, something innatural, I hate the communists for they ruined my family and I hate the libertines for they are an anathema to a lawful person like me. As I have said several times, I choose order instead of freedom and I actively work to ensure that my views are rappresented. I speak my mind, but I do not offend other members like you continue to do.
. . .This entire quote is offensive, you [&@%!]. I'm not going any deeper than that, other than apparently I'm very much correct in my assertion.
Arterion wrote:And in this democracy I choose to vote for the right wing parties as I am free to do, as the Greeks have done seeing the results in the last elections. This ideas will never be removed from our minds, in fact they gain a greater support by the day. People are tired of immigrants, they are tired to see hippies and spineless leftists run the show. The people want security and order and they remember that they can hate too, for it is their costitutional right to hate, as it is mine.

And yes I am more than expendable and I have no problems with that. As long as it serves a purpose or it will benefit my people and state.
It is constitutional to hate, but it is unconstitutional to deny the rights of others based on that hatred.

And uno momento...isn't your mother an immigrant? Didn't you say that she's from Slovenia? What makes her, as an immigrant, that much more special than any other immigrant? Every single post that you've typed in this thread has been nothing short of hypocritical.

So, just so we're clear, you are admitting your racism and hatred of all others different than you, correct? I just want to make that absolutely, abundantly, crystal-clear.
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Re: It's the economy, stupid!

Post by Frost Mage »

Investing in "military needs" is about as stupid as it can get. We're fighting a war against no one, therefore, we can't win.
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Re: It's the economy, stupid!

Post by Arterion »

No she is not an immigrant for she does not work in Italy, nor lives there. If you would check the location of Trieste you might undestand how an, ahem hateful hypocritical and racist, oh and lets not forget, gay, commie and unemployed [&@%!] like me, came from.

Sigh, why one must fight tooth and nail when I can simply leave them to be...
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Re: It's the economy, stupid!

Post by House of the Wolf »

Admission is the first step to healing, Arterion.

@Frosty, I wholly agree. Especially when that money is going toward contractors, and not the actual military.
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