Does it make sense, Lore wise, for a wounded Empire to...

[Mefris Elmek]

Skyrim is her own nation. I would help them, but the Stormcloaks are hypocritical bigots. They are just going to subject different people to the same kind of oppression they face.

Facts damn it!Like 90% of the people that don't like the SC you haven't given' me any facts,just your biased opinion.

[Suibhne]

(let's see...OK, not a double, not an addition or an edit to a previous post...looks like I'm good to go)

Facts damn it!Like 90% of the people that don't like the SC you haven't given' me any facts,just your biased opinion.

+1

Particularly with regard to this issue.

But it is the cause of the day, something to be outraged about because people think it makes them look tolerant and cool.

Unfortunately, the result is just the opposite. Instead of making a person look cool, running around accusing others of being racist with no rhyme or reason just looks like a three-year old who has learned a new potty word and can't stop shouting it.

Worse, what people don't realize is that it trivializes the whole concept and makes real racism hard to identify and deal with.

[Mefris Elmek]

Mmm yes,everyone feels the need to become a prosecutor for the Empire because it "can do no wrong" with men like General Tulius and the "wise Mede Dinasty " while the Stormcloaks are all just "racist hypocrites" with Ulfric being the biggest of them all.

The thing which I find funny,Suibhne, is that people keep tossing around all these accusations and when asked about proof they act like they're on Moon Sugar.

Ok,Ulfric is a racist?Prove it!He hides behind Talos just to get a lousy "Casius Beli"?Prove it!The Stormcloaks don't let other religious groups practice their faith??PROVE IT!!!
I want just one quote on Ulfric that clearly shows his racisim.ONE,not two or ten,just ONE.
He basically got his life stolen by the Thalmor.He was captured and tortured for days and was lead to believe that he was the one that crumbled the Empire,the one that killed hundreds of his own men and thousands of imperial citizens...
When he was finally realest and he returned home the only thing that greeted him was more sorrow and death and the responsibility of bringing his subjects "back to life".
He started to rebuild morale for himself and his men then he got a call for help from a fellow Jarl in trouble to which he answered immediately and what did that get him?Jail time...

After all this I think anyone could agree that he would feel hatred towards the Altmer that put him through so much physical and psychological pain and would probably want to kill every single one of them or at least toss some racist remarks here and there....which he never does.He comes face to face with his torturer and he never pulls a "damn elf","pointy eard demon" or "Altmer [&@%!]",instead,he pulls a "Thalmor [&@%!].Ulfric has nothing against other races,he has something against individual [%#@].

Now on the rest of the Stormcloaks racism,has anyone stopped and counted all of the non-nords that have a place in SC courts?If not I'll save you the trouble,there are four:Anuriel,Nenya,Malur Seloth and Wylandriah.
A Altmer,two Bosmer and a Dunmer working as stewards and court wizards for their Jarls.
I think this speaks for itself.

[Derp53]

Mmm yes,everyone feels the need to become a prosecutor for the Empire because it "can do no wrong" with men like General Tulius and the "wise Mede Dinasty " while the Stormcloaks are all just "racist hypocrites" with Ulfric being the biggest of them all.

The thing which I find funny,Suibhne, is that people keep tossing around all these accusations and when asked about proof they act like they're on Moon Sugar.

Ok,Ulfric is a racist?Prove it!He hides behind Talos just to get a lousy "Casius Beli"?Prove it!The Stormcloaks don't let other religious groups practice their faith??PROVE IT!!!
I want just one quote on Ulfric that clearly shows his racisim.ONE,not two or ten,just ONE.
He basically got his life stolen by the Thalmor.He was captured and tortured for days and was lead to believe that he was the one that crumbled the Empire,the one that killed hundreds of his own men and thousands of imperial citizens...
When he was finally realest and he returned home the only thing that greeted him was more sorrow and death and the responsibility of bringing his subjects "back to life".
He started to rebuild morale for himself and his men then he got a call for help from a fellow Jarl in trouble to which he answered immediately and what did that get him?Jail time...

After all this I think anyone could agree that he would feel hatred towards the Altmer that put him through so much physical and psychological pain and would probably want to kill every single one of them or at least toss some racist remarks here and there....which he never does.He comes face to face with his torturer and he never pulls a "damn elf","pointy eard demon" or "Altmer [&@%!]",instead,he pulls a "Thalmor [&@%!].Ulfric has nothing against other races,he has something against individual [%#@].

Now on the rest of the Stormcloaks racism,has anyone stopped and counted all of the non-nords that have a place in SC courts?If not I'll save you the trouble,there are four:Anuriel,Nenya,Malur Seloth and Wylandriah.
A Altmer,two Bosmer and a Dunmer working as stewards and court wizards for their Jarls.
I think this speaks for itself.

that was pretty much on target, i think people are getting the idea that ulfric is racist from the racism his supporters exude, i never got a racist remark from ulfric only the people who agreed with him and his philosophy

[Rynkar]

Not to argue (because i suck at it) but ulfric at least doesnt care for other races, he may not hate them but he sure doesnt like them. Evident by the fact that he doesnt help anyone that isnt a nord when attacked by bandits but rushes to bring justice down on those that do attack nords.

[Derp53]

Not to argue (because i suck at it) but ulfric at least doesnt care for other races, he may not hate them but he sure doesnt like them. Evident by the fact that he doesnt help anyone that isnt a nord when attacked by bandits but rushes to bring justice down on those that do attack nords.

thats what we hear from brunwulf free-winter, he doesn't exactly like ulfric if you haven't noticed, hence the biased opinion, but i doubt that he doesn't at least consider non-nord citizensof his hold.

[Mefris Elmek]

Not to argue (because i suck at it) but ulfric at least doesnt care for other races, he may not hate them but he sure doesnt like them. Evident by the fact that he doesnt help anyone that isnt a nord when attacked by bandits but rushes to bring justice down on those that do attack nords.

And you know this from whom...?Free -Winter? Again... I see no proof.


Hm,I love how a lot of people portray Brunwulf Free-Winter as the saviour of Windhelm because he throws some bones to the Dark Elves and Argonians.What's he gona' do when the Dominion knocks on his door?Love them to death?

[DikaSmausha]

You are very correct. Free Winter talks bullcrap. Though, Ulfric doesnt like the other races, but he doesnt hate them.

[Rynkar]

It may be exageration but there has to be some truth to what free-winter says. And asking for proof can go both ways, can you prove ulfric treats all bandit attacks the same no matter the victim?
Free-winter was part of the great war, i highly doubt he has any possitive emotion for the thalmor. But he doesnt hate the high elves, he treats them equaly until they deserve otherwise. (Like if theyI commit a crime)

[Mefris Elmek]

And asking for proof can go both ways, can you prove ulfric treats all bandit attacks the same no matter the victim?

No,I can't prove how Ulfric handles a bandit attack but I can prove that Ulfric doesn't handle ANY domestic affair of that nature because that's the job of his steward.Ulfric has a war on his hands which is at the top of the priority list and this is evident when Jarl Layla ask for SC troops to deal with the Thives Guild.Also,when the Windhelm guard asks for help on investigating the Butcher where does he send you to report your findings?To Ulfric?No,he sends you to his steward.

[Suibhne]

It may be exageration but there has to be some truth to what free-winter says. And asking for proof can go both ways, can you prove ulfric treats all bandit attacks the same no matter the victim?
Free-winter was part of the great war, i highly doubt he has any possitive emotion for the thalmor. But he doesnt hate the high elves, he treats them equaly until they deserve otherwise. (Like if theyI commit a crime)

Ulfric doesn't hate the Dunmer. He may be indifferent to them...and with all he has on his plate that's not unreasonable. But no kingdom, no jarldom, no state in Tamriel is a nanny state. To expect him to divert precious resources to a people who are suspicious of others, clannish, manipulative and uninterested in being citizens ...you know, paying taxes, supporting civic projects, mowing the lawn...is a bit sophomoric.

As far as evidence is concerned...you're right, it cuts both ways. But what doesn't cut both ways is the willingness of people to slander others without evidence.

No one has to provide proof...at least not in Western democracies (that's ostensibly most of us)...to accept a person at face value. No proof needed to give another person the benefit of the doubt separate petty gossip.

This is known colloquially as "presumption of innocence"--a 2000 year old concept/meme (Code of Hammurabi) that is at the very heart of any objective notion of justice and honour and freedom.

What it effectively means is that in a free and just and honourable society we don't require any proof at all to assume probity...but the standard of proof--the bar that proof must rise above--is correspondingly higher to condemn, slander and/or vilify.

Or should be...

[Derp53]

went into gray quarter for a thieves guild quest and a dark elf himself says his brothers are too naive, even niranye calls the dark elves in windhelm poud, naive, and foolish. Until the dark elves adapt to their surroundings they are going to treated as second class citizens, not mention if the gray quarter is such slum, why not save up money and renovate it yourself, don't just rely on the people that took you in.

[Rynkar]

Niranye would be equal to booker t. Washington in that situation, we all know how his views went.

[Derp53]

but she's also the best off out the windhelm's elven population

[Suibhne]

Niranye would be equal to booker t. Washington in that situation, we all know how his views went.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with that reference. Please explain.

[OblivionDuruza]

If it was all about saving lives, he should have agreed to the Thalmor's terms in the first place. Instead tens of thousands died just for him to get back to the same bad deal he started out with.

At that point the Empire had a chance of victory that wasn't pyrrhic. How was anyone to predict the future with regards to the outcome of the war? Surrendering before the outbreak of war and after the mass devastation of much of your lands and the inevitable continued devastation of even more of your lands, are not the same thing.

You are very correct. Free Winter talks bullcrap. Though, Ulfric doesnt like the other races, but he doesnt hate them.

Nice sentiment, but Free-Winter provides evidence by way of a quest the PC actual can undertake. What evidence have you presented to support your claim?