Does it make sense, Lore wise, for a wounded Empire to...

[enyamerT]

Dominion would have just done a massive counter attack and steamrolled the Empire. A peace treaty was the only way the Empire could survive.

If the Dominion had the ability to do a counterattack of that magnitude, they would have done so and not even considered Mede's offer to renegotiate. They were in as bad a shape as the Imperial forces were, and Mede just gave them the opportunity to set the Empire up to destroy itself from within - which is exactly what's been happening.

[Kerr]

Which is why they agreed to the treaty. A war would have come as a massive cost to both sides. But Dominion would probably win.

[SajuukKhar]

Unless ofc the Redguards get a HoonDing, or another Shezzarine is born.

Then the AD is screwed

Especially if its another Pelinal level Shezzarine.

[Suibhne]

I probably would have joined the Stormcloaks if they weren't so racist.

Dominion would have just done a massive counter attack and steamrolled the Empire. A peace treaty was the only way the Empire could survive. I can't really see the treaty lasting too long. Empire and Dominion are gearing up for round two.

The Dominion is preparing for round two. It is the only way that they can achieve their expressed purpose of wiping out all non-mer in Tamriel--no finer example of xenophobia and racial hatred than that.

But despite the braggadocio, the Empire is not preparing for round two.

Why would they? To protect their citizens against mistreatment? Look no further than the shadow judicial system and the roving patrols of Thalmor agents that arrest, torture and summarily execute Imperial citizens for an answer to that. A virtual police state aided and abetted by the Empire.*

How about to protect the sovereignty of the Empire and Skyrim? To push out a foreign power that is gathering information on Imperial defenses, preparedness, and actively working to undermine Imperial control?

The Empire ceded all that in what could reasonably be called an act of appeasement and collusion...even betrayal of its citizens.

And that happened thirty years ago...a literal lifetime/lifespan in archaic cultures with no access to modern medicine or guaranteed meals. Thirty years ago and the Empire has not gotten stronger...although the bureaucrats who run the Empire are more entrenched...neither militarily nor in terms of morale.

Thirty years later, Imperial officials...from Jarls to the High King are more like Thalmor thralls than leaders of a great nation/power. *Witness Jarl Igmond and High King Torygg bowing to Thalmor pressure and reneging on the deal they made with Ulfric to allow Talos worship in return for his services and then having him arrested.

That too is a betrayal. And a most dishonourable one.

From the UESP Lore:

The Thalmor ...would not allow the Empire to keep this pledge, and eventually, the young High King of Skyrim, Torygg, acquiesced to the Imperial demand to eliminate Talos worship. Jarl Igmund stressed that the peace with the Thalmor was more important than the arrangement with Ulfric and the Nord militia. Ulfric was arrested. Ulfric was incensed, and eventually confronted the High King in Solitude.

Now...people can ignore the Lore (including the bit that states, unequivocally, that there is no (that means zero) credible evidence that Ulfric is a racist), but the Lore is the only hard, verifiable frame of reference we have. Everything else is emotion and speculation and rumour-mongering and over-the-clothes-line gossip and unsubstantiated slander.

Nothing less.

[Suibhne]

The only reason skyrim is ''not that place'' is because people like ulfric and his followers make it so ... the empire does not

Wrong again..."Skyrim is not that place" because no nation in Tamriel is a democracy--they are all xenophobic feudal autocracies; there is no option to smith ballot boxes; and...and...the writers at Bethesda never intended it to be "that place".

[Chaos the N'wah]

Suibhne, not that I don't love the fact that you pointed out that most "information" on Ulfric's supposed racism is completely subjective, but you really should just edit your post instead of double posting

Carry on

[Derp53]

i don't see a problem with thalmor justiciars roving around, in fact they keep me entertained when i get bored. joking aside i don't like the stormcloaks because there racism(or at least individuals that support the stormcloaks), but the empire is weak and i hate the structure of it's government, it's a crumbling bureaucracy and i hate how soft and useless nobles run a diverse and large nation like the empire. I will always hate the Mede regime for giving in great war and not expecting an attack when the thalmor were clearly massing for an invasion. Many of us have been down in the ratway right? Did you ever meet a man named salvius, i wondered y i joined the imperial legion when i met him and wished i had given the jagged crown to ulfric. Either way the aldmeri dominion is likely to steamroller the milk drinkers that happen to called legionnaires and the imperial government can fall on itself for all i care

[Suibhne]

Suibhne, not that I don't love the fact that you pointed out that most "information" on Ulfric's supposed racism is completely subjective, but you really should just edit your post instead of double posting

Carry on

Sorry if I double posted. Did you delete it? I don't see a double post from me.

[ScorpionGT1]

Above Chaos's post, you posted twice in a row. That's a double post. Also, note that only moderators or admins can delete posts, and you can delete your last post. No one else.

[Suibhne]

Above Chaos's post, you posted twice in a row. That's a double post. Also, note that only moderators or admins can delete posts, and you can delete your last post. No one else.

I was replying to two different people. Is there a rule against posting two posts...one right after the other?

[Kerr]

Yes. Just use the edit button instead. Also read the rules.

[Suibhne]

Yes. Just use the edit button instead. Also read the rules.

I don't mean to quibble and I will certainly try to abide by the rules but I don't see in the rules where it says that successive posts are forbidden. It simply says that...

Double Posts - This can never happen by accident because the forum software tells you if you click submit more than once. Use the edit button in the bottom left if you've got something else to add to an existing post.

Since I was responding to two different people on two different points, I don't understand how this is in violation of the rules.

More than that I have not been contacted by a moderator on this or any other subject and am puzzled by the purpose of this digression.

[ScorpionGT1]

Yes. Just use the edit button instead. Also read the rules.

I don't mean to quibble and I will certainly try to abide by the rules but I don't see in the rules where it says that successive posts are forbidden. It simply says that...

Double Posts - Use the edit button in the bottom left if you've got something else to add to an existing post.

Since I was responding to two different people on two different points, I don't understand how this is in violation of the rules.

More than that I have not been contacted by a moderator on this or any other subject and am puzzled by the purpose of this digression.

It says use the edit button. What more do you need? It's not hard to click a different button, and it reduces scrolling.

A moderator isn't going to contact you over a single case of double posting. And you can quote multiple people in one post. just type in the following manually: [ quote="postername" ]blahblahblah[ /quote ] Just remove the spaces between the word "quote" and the brackets.

blahblahblahblah

As you can see, I've manually quoted something. It's not that hard, really. Certainly not hard enough to be worth questioning.

[Mefris Elmek]

Oh boy....
WARNING!:Major quote snipping ahead.

If you want proof of ulfrics racism , look at the dark elves of windhelm[...]

Are you serious?He almost got his head chopped up by a coward who was so afraid of him he wouldn't offer a fair trial (not even to his men) AND he has imperial forces on his door step.The only thing on Ulfric's mind right now is to get the "imperials" out of his homeland and to make preparations for taking the battle to the Thalmor.He's so consumed by these preparations that he's oblivious to a f-ing serial killer that plagues his beloved city(which is a threat to everybody,not just to a particular race).

[...]if you speak to the possible imperial jarl of windhelm before he is (cant remember his name)

Brunwulf Free-Winter (who is a very biased person by the way and has everything to gain from Ulfric "shaking hands with Tsun" if you know what I mean.)

he tells you about how ulfric ignores attacks on dark elf refugees while paying attention to any nords that are attacked .. he also makes all the dark elves live in the grey quarter , but i assume this could be for because of lack of space anywhere else

If anything,he isolated them to protect them against idiots like,for example,Galmar's brother(didn't work to well apparently).That,or he fears possible Thalmor/Imperial spies and having them clustered together makes them easier to survey.
Anyway,I ask you,if Ulfric is such a god damn racist who hates non-nords so much why didn't he do the racist method of dealing with them (a la Hitler or KKK)?Why not put every non-nord through the sword and spare yourself the headache?Because they can chop some wood and are fun to throw rocks at?Please...

now i've seen people say here that the empire simply allow the thalmor to torture and murder many people , but they are not , because of their truce , they are sparing many of skyrims people even worse fates .

Huh?People are dying because of their beliefs and because they choose to stand up for themselves and that's ok with you?The thalmor are systematically killing anyone who is a threat to their grand plan and they are doing it with the approval of the Emperor himself effectively weakening the entire empire.By the time the AD comes in full force to finish the job the only people left that can hold a sword will be those who don't give a skeevers ass about anything.
Yeah...brilliant

and to the one who said torygg and ulfric werent friends when he murdered him .. while ulfric may not have considered torygg a friend , torygg respected ulfric greatly as his court mage says

Apparently he didn't respect him (or himself for that matter) enough to not whine like a little brat in Sovngard.King Olaf got his reputations tarnished by a simple poem (for all eternity)and do you know what he said about the bard that wrote it?"I'll welcome him in Sovngard as a friend and ally".

Torygg's death was needed if Skyrim was to survive a AD invasion.

the empire is all-round better than the stormcloaks , better for skyrim , better for everyone ...and mede is a wise emperor

..... He's more wise then....The Gourmet?Or...?

Stormcloaks can be pretty prejudcied against Forsworn, Deadra worshippers and other races. It is the pot calling the kettle black.

What? Can you give me a quote or a link that explicitly states SC's attitude towards the Foswarn?Also a link to someone who DOES actually like them would be helpful as well.
The rest is basically hypocrisy at it's best.They don't like daedra worshippers but the Empire does?Really? So the Synod and the Vigilants of Stendarr (just to name a few)are really affiliated with the SC,right?Ahh I forgot...in Cyrodiil Daedra worship is encouraged while in Skyrim(because of the awful Stormcloaks) it's frowned upon.

Stormcloaks are hypocrites. That want to be able to worship whatever gods they want but stop others from doing the same. There are crazy people in every religion. Doesn't mean normal, law abiding, peaceful people should have to suffer.

Ok....name me which religious groups have the SC stopped from worshipping their "gods".

If the Dominion had the ability to do a counterattack of that magnitude, they would have done so and not even considered Mede's offer to renegotiate. They were in as bad a shape as the Imperial forces were, and Mede just gave them the opportunity to set the Empire up to destroy itself from within - which is exactly what's been happening.

The Dominion wasn't even able to defeat the Redguards who were on their own much less continue the war with an entire empire.Accepting a deal that was intended to destroy the Empire in the first place is the stupidest thing Mede could have done...and he did it...a thing that speaks for itself.

Which is why they agreed to the treaty. A war would have come as a massive cost to both sides. But Dominion would probably win.

Like they did in Hammerfell? Aha....

[Derp53]

the only thing the dominion has going for them is easy access to various regions of the empire and superior soldier quality. When i say the empire's military gear suck i'm saying it for a reason, the average thalmor soldier is worth 5 imperial soldiers. also is it helps to mention thalmor military intelligence is alot brighter than anything the empire can even come up with, penitus oculatus please, there useless and i am going to have to agree with mefris, the stormcloaks look a whole lot more competent, even if do smell worse.

[Mefris Elmek]

also is it helps to mention thalmor military intelligence is alot brighter than anything the empire can even come up with, penitus oculatus please, there useless

Very true.The Thalmor managed to decimate the Blades who were realistically 5 classes above the Penitus Oculatus so that renders them pretty useless.

If the Dark Brotherhood could make fools out of them I don't doubt the Thalmor could do much more.

[Derp53]

they could probably pick them apart, put them together again and repeat, i wouldn't be surprised if the penitus oculatus was already compromised, don't even get me started on the imperial government

[Mefris Elmek]

The Imperial government was compromised the moment Mede signed the WGC.If we see Thalmor agents in provincial courts like in Markarth or Solitude and in institutes like the College of Winterhold you can imagine what's the situation in Cyrodiil.

[Suibhne]

With regard to the Dunmer in Windhelm and why they live in the Grey Quarter...from the Lore:

Dunmer distrust and are treated distrustfully by other races. They are often proud, clannish, ruthless, and cruel, from an outsider's point of view, but greatly value loyalty and family.

The "peaceful" status quo for Dunmer is still quite savage, even when led by living gods. Political machinations are constant. Assassinations are common...

And in the past, in Morrowind and after entering the Empire,they were slavers:

Slavery used to be commonplace. Mostly Khajiit or Argonian slaves were trafficked, although many men and mer were also enslaved. The Third Empire of Tiber Septim had banned slavery, but Dunmer were allowed to keep their own sacred and traditional laws in their entrance to the Empire.

Maybe it's karma...it's not Ulfric.

[Derp53]

The Imperial government was compromised the moment Mede signed the WGC.If we see Thalmor agents in provincial courts like in Markarth or Solitude and in institutes like the College of Winterhold you can imagine what's the situation in Cyrodiil.

another reason i'm lamenting my decision to commit my best character to the imperial legion and it's kind of ironic because she's a nord. Though i noticed another thing about the stormcloaks(other than having a cooler name than the legion) is that their soldiers get alot more respect, in the legion my character rarely ever got addressed properly as Legate. But with the stormcloaks they call you by the title stormblade 60 percent of the time(estimate).

[Kerr]

I know the empire does the same thing but that doesn't make the stormcloaks doing it okay. If they want religious freedom it should apply to everyone, not just to them.

[Derp53]

I know the empire does the same thing but that doesn't make the stormcloaks doing it okay. If they want religious freedom it should apply to everyone, not just to them.

then let high rock and morrowind succeed from the empire, skyrim is her own nation

[Kerr]

Skyrim is her own nation. I would help them, but the Stormcloaks are hypocritical bigots. They are just going to subject different people to the same kind of oppression they face.

[Derp53]

i doubt that, they couldn't suppress all the other races in skyrim, the nord population by itself is too small to hold skyrim above the water too long, dark elves had it coming, it was karma, and these kinds of behaviors coming from nords who support ulfric will eventually die down with time, people change in times of hardship and in times of prosperity

[Suibhne]

Also the Decree of Monument...makes it the stated policy of all Jarls in Skyrim that the Dunmer are welcome in Skyrim with no obligations or tithes (taxes)

4 E 20
This tower once served as a meeting place where those brave souls who achieved safe passage to Skyrim would find loved ones, and leave notice for others who could not be found.

Let it stand in honor of those who had the strength and spirit to accept Skyrim's Offer "untithed to any thane or hold, and self-governed, with free worship, with no compensation to Skyrim or the Empire except as writ in the Armistice of old wheresoever those might still apply, and henceforth let no Man or Mer say that the Sons and Daughters of Kyne are without mercy or honor."

We, the Jarls of Skyrim, hereby decree this site as monument to the struggle of those who fled their native home of Morrowind in the time following the Red Year.