Does it make sense, Lore wise, for a wounded Empire to...

[enyamerT]

If it was all about saving lives, he should have agreed to the Thalmor's terms in the first place. Instead tens of thousands died just for him to get back to the same bad deal he started out with.

He didn't finish the job, and in the end made it easier for the Thalmor to eventually finish theirs. May Dagon take his wretched soul. (Or Boethiah, if you believe the Goldbrand rumors )

[Mefris Elmek]

@Mefris Elmek: true to an extent, but we also need to remember ulfric is killing imperial soldiers is he not, also he is also suspect to ambitions of becoming high king.

And what is the Empire doing?Picking daisies?
Executions without a fair trial,no peaceful negotiations(and when there is one they call the Thalmor ambassador to provoke the enemy),disrespect towards the Nordic culture (see Tulius if you want a example) and killing mothers,fathers,daughters etc.

I don't see how the Empire is any better the the Stormcloaks.In fact,I see them as much worse.

[Crepe the Ashlander]

Executions without a fair trial

Are you on about Ulfric? If so, would you conduct a trial if you were that close to finishing off the war? I wouldn't, I would bang off his head as soon as I could so I could go home and see my family.

call the Thalmor ambassador to provoke the enemy

I'm sure somewhere during the negotiations, once you get rid of the ambassador Tullius mentions something about being relieved she is gone. To be honest, I don't even think Tullius would think bringing the ambassador is a good thing to do. Actually, at any point during the game does it imply that the Imperials are using the Thalmor to provoke the enemy?

Plus from the UESP:

like most of the Empire he also despises the Thalmor, especially with Elenwen during the quest Season Unending.

disrespect towards the Nordic culture

Fair enough Tullius doesn't know much about the culture, but if you do the Imperial questline he begins to respect the Nordic culture, although he admits he will never truly believe it.

[Mefris Elmek]

Are you on about Ulfric? If so,would you conduct a trial if you were that close to finishing off the war? I wouldn't, I would bang off his head as soon as I could so I could go home and see my family.

Yes,I would.Everyone deserves at least a trial before they get their head chopped off.Also, Tulius doesn't plan to leave after he solves the SC problem because he still has to hold Jarl Elisif's hand for a few years.

I'm sure somewhere during the negotiations, once you get rid of the ambassador Tullius mentions something about being relieved she is gone. To be honest, I don't even think Tullius would think bringing the ambassador is a good thing to do. Actually, at any point during the game does it imply that the Imperials are using the Thalmor to provoke the enemy?

The fact that she is there is enough to imply that Tulius is using her to provoke a reaction.It doesn't matter that Tulius doesn't like the Thalmor because the Stormcloaks are his problem and he has to deal with them before anything else and by any means necessary.

Fair enough Tullius doesn't know much about the culture, but if you do the Imperial questline he begins to respect the Nordic culture, although he admits he will never truly believe it.

After he won and everything fell into place I wouldn't expect him to continue his insults towards the Nords.The whole scene starting from when you entered the Palace Of Kings and ending at his "marvellous" speech is something out of I.L.Caragiale's writings.

[enyamerT]

The fact that she is there is enough to imply that Tulius is using her to provoke a reaction.It doesn't matter that Tulius doesn't like the Thalmor because the Stormcloaks are his problem and he has to deal with them before anything else and by any means necessary.

You're assuming Tullius had a choice in bringing her along. My impression was that she invited herself, but Tullius being "just" a military commander, didn't have the diplomatic power to refuse her.

[Mefris Elmek]

You're assuming Tullius had a choice in bringing her along. My impression was that she invited herself, but Tullius being "just" a military commander, didn't have the diplomatic power to refuse her.

Of course she invited herself because that's what she's supposed to do.In the current situation Tulius is the leader of the imperial controlled Skyrim and that doesn't make him "just" a commander.If he truly would have wanted to make a peaceful negotiation with Ulfric he would have refused her presence from the get go because he knew nothing good would come of it.Also,bringing Elisif was another stupid move on his part.

[enyamerT]

Of course she invited herself because that's what she's supposed to do.In the current situation Tulius is the leader of the imperial controlled Skyrim and that doesn't make him "just" a commander.If he truly would have wanted to make a peaceful negotiation with Ulfric he would have refused her presence from the get go because he knew nothing good would come of it.Also,bringing Elisif was another stupid move on his part.

I believe Elenwen's very presence in Skyrim is assured by the Emperor himself, to uphold the terms of the White-Gold Concordat. So Tullius is pretty much stuck with her.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

I find it odd that people would complain about Tullius disrespecting Nord culture when he actually starts to respect it if you side with the Imperials towards the end. About the biggest character flaw I could find in him was that he was distant and formal, and condescending towards Rikke on more than one occasion.

Ulfric however...Ulfric hides behind Nord Natonalism to further his goals, but he's known to have callously disregarded Nord traditions when he sees fit. He even went so far as to say "damn the moot" at one point. And what true Nord traditionalist would prefer gods like Talos or Kynareth over the proper Nordic Shor and Kyne? And was it really necessary to kill his friend just to prove a point? Or to slaughter women and children in Markarth?

[Mefris Elmek]

I find it odd that people would complain about Tullius disrespecting Nord culture when he actually starts to respect it if you side with the Imperials towards the end. About the biggest character flaw I could find in him was that he was distant and formal, and condescending towards Rikke on more than one occasion.

After he gutted half of Skyrim the least he could do is show a little respect.The "Nordic culture" is no longer a thorn in his side so now he can "respect" it.Pfff....My hero.

Ulfric however...Ulfric hides behind Nord Natonalism to further his goals, but he's known to have callously disregarded Nord traditions when he sees fit. He even went so far as to say "damn the moot" at one point.

And....?What is so important about the Moot?Is it the thing that defines Skyrim?Or better yet,is it the thing that defines a Nord?I find it funny that people think Ulfric fights for the Skyrim of "Old" when EVERYTHING he says and does is for the Skyrim of "now" and the Empire of the Septims.

And what true Nord traditionalist would prefer gods like Talos or Kynareth over the proper Nordic Shor and Kyne?

I don't understand where people get the idea that it's so non-nordic to worship Talos when he's the most popular hero in nordic history and also the God of Mankind.

And was it really necessary to kill his friend just to prove a point?

His friend? When were Ulfric and Torygg friends?And the short answer would be "Yes,it was necessary".If there is a need I will elaborate.

Or to slaughter women and children in Markarth?

.......Ok,so let's start from the beginning:
-Markarth is conquered by the Fosworn (because it was their land in the first place)
-The Jarl asks Ulfric for help
-Ulfric does his job and wins back Markarth.

^What's the difference between what Ulfric did then and what the imperials do now?I'll tell you:Nothing

[Derp53]

ulfric kinda murdered a good portion of the civilian population if thats not obvious and it's not like the nords treat the native reachmen as equals, at least the empire doesn't encourage BLATANT racism, there are so many accounts of nords that follow ulfric's ways discriminating its appalling, hell my dark elf got called a dirty grayskin by almost every poor and radical minded nord in windhelm, dawnstar, and markarth

[DikaSmausha]

The empire always talks about all the bad things the Stormcloaks do, so no one realizes what the Empire truly does and what that have done to control all the provinces.

[Br3admax]

Spoiler:

Mede is dead.

Rember all main and guild quest happen; I'm wondering how two-sided quest will work. Plus a new leader means everything. Just like Tiber Septim.

[Mefris Elmek]

ulfric kinda murdered a good portion of the civilian population

Ulfric kinda murdered no one.He took back the Reach from the Fosworn and that was where his agreement ended.What the Jarl or his nord subjects did after (or before) is his/their problem.

at least the empire doesn't encourage BLATANT racism

It doesn't?Really?Cough COUGH.....must have had something in my throat.Hm,I seem to remember a long list of Imperial soldiers having racist remarks towards practically every race in Skyrim.Oh,and let's not forget that the poor Khajits aren't welcomed anywhere,be it a SC city or a IL city.

there are so many accounts of nords that follow ulfric's ways discriminating its appalling,

No,there are many accounts of discriminating Nords becoming SC because it gives them the means to behave like [@#@] but that doesn't mean that they are all the same or that Ulfric agrees with them.He has a relatively small recruitment pool from where he can gather men as opposed to the Empire which has significantly more troops and resources.Ulfric can't be picky,he has to take advantage from every single sword that he can recruit.

Ulfric doesn't share the belief system his men have and that is evident when he "demolishes" his best friend and second in command for motivating his presence in the Stormcloaks with a petty hatred of Elves.Even Legate Rikke respects him for Talos's sake...

The empire always talks about all the bad things the Stormcloaks do, so no one realizes what the Empire truly does and what that have done to control all the provinces.

Everything is out in the open.People just choose not to see it.

Spoiler:

Mede is dead.

And I'm very glad to have served the Emperor by adding a "ventilation shaft" for his skull.My only regret is that he wasn't on the top deck so I could feed the slaughter fish.

[Suibhne]

ulfric kinda murdered a good portion of the civilian population if thats not obvious and it's not like the nords treat the native reachmen as equals, at least the empire doesn't encourage BLATANT racism, there are so many accounts of nords that follow ulfric's ways discriminating its appalling, hell my dark elf got called a dirty grayskin by almost every poor and radical minded nord in windhelm, dawnstar, and markarth

The charge of racism is without merit or evidence.

I challenge anyone to cite one...just one...law, writ, statute, edict, or even opinion, which Ulfric explicitly and actively supports that directly persecutes or harasses any other race in Skyrim.

Even the UESP WIKI Lore states "Although he is branded a racist by his detractors, there is nothing to substantiate these claims."

Such statements are invariably based on hearsay, rumour-mongering and over-the-clothesline-gossip from disgruntled NPCs, or on real life sensibilities being broadly and thoughtlessly conflated with Skyrim.

[Br3admax]

I find it odd that people would complain about Tullius disrespecting Nord culture when he actually starts to respect it if you side with the Imperials towards the end. About the biggest character flaw I could find in him was that he was distant and formal, and condescending towards Rikke on more than one occasion.

Ulfric however...Ulfric hides behind Nord Natonalism to further his goals, but he's known to have callously disregarded Nord traditions when he sees fit. He even went so far as to say "damn the moot" at one point. And what true Nord traditionalist would prefer gods like Talos or Kynareth over the proper Nordic Shor and Kyne? And was it really necessary to kill his friend just to prove a point? Or to slaughter women and children in Markarth?

I know it's sort of old, but Kyne is Kynareth. And it's more of "We're nords, we kill elves not bow to them.

[Mefris Elmek]

I know it's sort of old, but Kyne is Kynareth*. And it's more of "We're nords, we kill elves not bow to them.**

*Not quite.
** Galmar:"I'll die before Elves dictate the fates of men"

[Chaos the N'wah]

ulfric kinda murdered a good portion of the civilian population

Except the book "Bear of Markarth" is extremely biased (The Author is an Imperial Scholar with a favoritism for the Forsworn)and has a flair for over-exaggeration
As well, the Cidhna Mine Quest involves talking to a man whose's daughter was beheaded by the Jarl, not the Stormcloaks, so none of it is verifiable.

[Br3admax]

An imperial jarl.

[philfredobob]

If you want proof of ulfrics racism , look at the dark elves of windhelm , if you speak to the possible imperial jarl of windhelm before he is (cant remember his name) he tells you about how ulfric ignores attacks on dark elf refugees while paying attention to any nords that are attacked .. he also makes all the dark elves live in the grey quarter , but i assume this could be for because of lack of space anywhere else , also he raises the taxes on the dark elf trader when a nord tells him too , but if dark elves go to him with complaints , he does nothing .... i think this qualifies as racism , he doesnt need to shout it in your face to show it ..

Also , the empire accepted the thalmors treaty after beating them in order to avoid further death , as the thalmor were weakened but stil reasonably powerfull ... now if the stormcloaks are struggling to defeat a weakened empire , almost losing the war entirely at one point , and losing many men in all their skirmishes , even if they DID win the war they would be severely weakened , and because of this the aldmerri dominion would swoop in and crush them and then take skyrim for themselves .. now i've seen people say here that the empire simply allow the thalmor to torture and murder many people , but they are not , because of their truce , they are sparing many of skyrims people even worse fates .

and to the one who said torygg and ulfric werent friends when he murdered him .. while ulfric may not have considered torygg a friend , torygg respected ulfric greatly as his court mage says

the empire is all-round better than the stormcloaks , better for skyrim , better for everyone ... and mede is a wise emperor

Well , you know , in my opinion

[Yaije]

The options are foreigners who are imposing on religious beliefs only cause some other foreign group doesn't like a particular god. Or a borderline racist leader with tunnel vision and a bunch of ignorant followers.

Really neither side is worthy of ruling imo.

[Suibhne]

i think this qualifies as racism...

It only qualifies as racism in a "nanny state"--where everyone feels entitled. Skyrim in not that place.

Ulfric is occupied with raising an army, feeding that army. Kicking the Thalmor out of Skyrim. He does nothing to actively persecute the elves or the Argonians. The worst you can accuse him of is indifference, and indifference is not...categorically not...racism. Esp. in the context.

There is a dark elf in the marketplace in Windhelm who says, essentially, that anyone who tries...dark elf or not...can prosper in Windhelm. There is a farm outside of Windhelm that is owned by a dark elf who employs a Nord farmhand. And another who farm (is it the same guy?) who says he is tired of all the whining.

And on top of all that...even if you insist that Ulfric be more proactive..the dark elves in Windhelm pay no taxes (yet are protected as if they were citizens), owe no allegiance to Ulfric, are not drafted into his army and the Grey Quarter is probably so riddled with spies and agents for the Thalmor that a wiser (and more pragmatic) leader would send them all packing.

No matter how you look at it they are a drain on Ulfric's resources.

He is not obligated to provide a welfare state, much less a refuge from the storm, by any treaty or law or even precedent. Despite all that, Ulfric does not persecute, harass or proscribe the activities of the dark Elves. And if you read his bio on UESP...he has plenty of reason to distrust and even hate the Thalmor.

[Kerr]

I probably would have joined the Stormcloaks if they weren't so racist.

The options are foreigners who are imposing on religious beliefs only cause some other foreign group doesn't like a particular god.

Stormcloaks can be pretty prejudcied against Forsworn, Deadra worshippers and other races. It is the pot calling the kettle black.

Dominion would have just done a massive counter attack and steamrolled the Empire. A peace treaty was the only way the Empire could survive. I can't really see the treaty lasting too long. Empire and Dominion are gearing up for round two.

[philfredobob]

The only reason skyrim is ''not that place'' is because people like ulfric and his followers make it so ... the empire does not

and ulfric having no ability to look after due to his army doesnt help his case , this just shows the poor state skyrim would be in without imperial rule , the empire is bigger , and has more money to fund everything ... so splitting off isnt in skyrims best interest

and also the argonians are forced to live in the argonian assembly , which is basicly a small warehouse with a few beds , they are treated very badly , and sometimes denied fair wage for good work , and what does ulfric do ? nothing ...

and dunmer in windhelm DO pay taxes , and since he possesses such a hate for the thalmor , and according to you might think there are spies among the dark elves who work with the thalmor , why would he recruit them to join ? so they give away his positons ??? wheres the logic ?

But you know what ? i give up , think whatever you want , i have nothing against that

[Yaije]

The options are foreigners who are imposing on religious beliefs only cause some other foreign group doesn't like a particular god.

Stormcloaks can be pretty prejudcied against Forsworn, Deadra worshippers and other races. It is the pot calling the kettle black.

Dominion would have just done a massive counter attack and steamrolled the Empire. A peace treaty was the only way the Empire could survive. I can't really see the treaty lasting too long. Empire and Dominion are gearing up for round two.

Yes, Talos is clearly as violent as the forsworn and most of the daedra teachings. /sarcasm

If people are going to say that empire > storm cloaks on basis of Racism in the Stormcloak ranks it's the same as the religious oppression of the Thalmer that the Empire is obligated to do on their behalf.

Also, the Forsworn and Daedra worshipers for the most part ARE murderers and killers (name a daedra beyond Meridia and Azura that DOESN"T encourage discord and killing).

[Kerr]

Stormcloaks are hypocrites. That want to be able to worship whatever gods they want but stop others from doing the same. There are crazy people in every religion. Doesn't mean normal, law abiding, peaceful people should have to suffer.