It's the economy, stupid!

[House of the Wolf]

In the wake of the economic debate in the US, and throughout the EU, it seems that everyone has their theories about what should(n't) be done in order to restore some sort of equilibrium out of the current flux. From "Government should have safety nets" to "Government should be completely Laissez Faire"; and from "Those making over a certain amount should be taxed far more than those who make less" to "Those that make over a certain amount are 'job creators' and therefore deserve to be taxed less", and all else in between, theories/opinions are as plentiful as a single man on ladies' night.

Given how much of an impact the economy has on our daily lives, and how much we invariably depend on its overall health for our basic modern-day survival, I thought I'd raise the issue for debate. What ideas do you have about it? Are the rich really "job creators"? Or is it the consumer who is the actual "job creator"? Should you, earning 35k a year, be taxed at 25% and the "job creator" at <15%? Or should you, earning 12k a year (full-time work at Wal-Mart, McDonald's, etc), be exempt from taxes (as you currently are, here in the US)? Lots and lots of questions..positions...ideas....you know the drill.

I can show you one person's position; a venture capitalist named Nick Hanauer. (btw, for the purposes of this thread, I agree wholly with Nick's position)

So...economy..debate! Go!

[POMC S117]

Rule 1: Don't do what the Tories are doing

[Avron the S'wit]

Rule 1: Don't do what the Tories are doing

This is not a legitimate debate post. Please expand your thoughts and tell us why you have that opinion and don't post for the sake of posting. These threads are for heavy discussion and to understand what you're thinking...but a quick one liner doesn't tell me anything!

[POMC S117]

Don't be a bunch of moronic, idiotic posh boys who have no connection with the bulk of society. Despite coming under fire by economists, members of other parties as well as those from inside their own party, they relentlessly fire on like Germanic tribesmen sacking Rome. They are making the poor foot the bill for the recession and their brutal cuts have sent the UK into a double dip.

[House of the Wolf]

Sounds a lot like the situation in the US...except the part where politicians are actually, collectively, fighting it. Our Congress seems uniquely inept in their arguments against both austerity, and the tax exemptions for the wealthy. It's almost as if they were being paid-off by them, or something....

[POMC S117]

The stupid Tories also abolished the 50p tax, a tax on those earning a lot of money. I forget the exact figure.

[House of the Wolf]

Didn't you know? They need that extra dough to create jobs for people like you.

[POMC S117]

14 year olds?

[House of the Wolf]

Exactly! If you're 14, they don't even have to pay you, which makes it a double-win for the economy. And by economy, I mean them...

[Deandra]

Here's a lighthearted read that actually makes a surprising number of valid points.

Disclaimer: some profanity in that article.

[POMC S117]

You are legally entitled to pay 14 year olds who work. I think the minimum wage is £3 or something an hour.

I think they should issue a Hard Workers' Tax Cut. They cut the tax of people who work hard or have worked long which means you'll have less people being lazy and living off benefits. They should also have an inspector that makes sure people are looking for work if they are on benefits.

[House of the Wolf]

In another thread, another user (let's discretely call him...Zill Wurmacht) inferred that an economy is at its best when the wealth is distributed from the top-down (ie, Trickle-Down Theorem), without any governmental oversight/regulation. I had never really invested a lot of time into economics or the finer workings of the subject, but I knew that this rap did not rhyme. So, almost coincidentally, more and more material and sources started revealing themselves through the media.

I applied what I felt was common sense and combined it with the sources of people-who-actually-know-what-they're-talking-about, and found Mr. Zill Wurmacht's inference as plausibly fallible. The economy is at its best when the middle-class is at its strongest, and when the government is there to help referee the greedy bankers/investors/CEOs/etc.

[POMC S117]

I hate the Trickle-Down Theory. It is the rich trying to conserve their wealth. It can be compared to a royal family banning the members from mating outside royalty.

[Taters]

People seem to have this inane idea that CEOs and businessmen are greedy and miserly and will mishandle the economy terribly, but that politicians(read: liberal politicians) are somehow these magnificent beings who will truly do what is right, with no concern for their own(or their friend's) standings in wealth. Horsecrap. Politicians are just as greedy and unscrupulous as any Wall Street CEO, so why should I trust one over the other?

EDIT: And to elucidate my unspoken point, liberals are just as greedy as conservatives, most of all when they have power.

[POMC S117]

Everyone knows the liberals are too high on pot to do anything!

I believe in Socialism, btw.

[House of the Wolf]

Yes, everyone is greedy, which is why we need a set of laws governing and "refereeing" the Market. Politicians can be, and should be, voted out when they don't represent the will of the people. CEOs should likewise be punished when they abuse the system, as they have many times in the last decade alone.

[House of the Wolf]

I'm betting/hoping that, if Obama wins his second term, his teeth will finally start to bare. Hopefully he'll help drive out this notion of austerity and fight for the middle class.

[Spiney]

I always say every country should have a sliding tax scale, that leaves a certain portion of income tax free (for basic living) and the rest is taxed more as you earn more. Said system exists in Australia and its one of the few reasons we have a small wealth gap.

Important to note that Australia was hardly affected by the GFC thanks to Rudd and that stimulus package. (Druza if you say one word about that you will never post again)

[Deandra]

If class warfare is what motivates people to vote, then why isn't communism more popular in the US? The people we elect aren't even remotely representative of our population if you look at their incomes. It's a given that both parties in our two party system look out for the ultra-rich, so in my mind it's a question of who'll cause less damage: the guys trying to increase our debt by cutting taxes (especially on the rich) or the guys trying to increase our debt by not raising taxes appropriately for all of the spending they want to do. Well, to be fair, it seems like both parties do both of those things.

[House of the Wolf]

As far as politicians, their income be limited to the median income of their constituents, and all donations should have a cap on them, per source.

When it pertains to the 'class warfare', it's all semantics. The 'rich' don't want to pay their share, so they load their burdens onto the middle class and poor. How? By buying-off politicians. 'Class warfare' is a simple way to put for the average person to catch on, but it's an apt description. Same as with the denial of voting rights to millions every election.

The point is, does anyone disagree that the key to a strong nation is a strong middle class?

[House of the Wolf]

So the 95 year old lady, who's been voting since the very early years after the suffragettes struggled and suffered, can't vote because she can't get the proper state ID? Or the 18 year old student who has a student ID, but not a state? While the slack-jaw without a state ID, but rather one from the NRA, can? Nonsense.

A la Rep. John Lewis.

[House of the Wolf]

Which is..hmm...what's the word I'm looking for...

...unconstitutional?

[House of the Wolf]

The 12th 15th and 19th Amendments preclude any and all discrimination set forth by state and local governing bodies, thereby rendering such practices both unconstitutional and illegal. The DOJ and ACLU have gone after most of them, but it's akin to watching molasses run down a slight hill on a cold morning.

But back to the original point...it is, very much, an issue.

[House of the Wolf]

Well, you aren't a recognized adult, yet. You can't be legally bonded to any lawful contract. Your parents/guardians are legally responsible for everything you do, save for a few exceptions. But that's a completely separate issue.

[House of the Wolf]

True. The only thing I'll say about age restrictions is that they exist for a reason, and that they go both ways; as hindered as you feel, you are also protected by the restrictions. But another topic for another day.