TESO - how to make it work

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Re: TESO - how to make it work

Post by AKB »

Mefris Elmek wrote:Tons of Quote Sniping.
Please don't do that. It's a PITA to reply to, basically requires the other person to do the same thing to you, and it almost always leads to straw man arguments somewhere down the line. I would also prefer you don't insult my intelligence by acting like I don't know what micro-transactions are or their significance to the gaming scene when I mention them by name and talk about what they include. Nothing about what I said suggested that I didn't know what they are, and I take offense at your implication that I don't. I play plenty of games that do that, and a few that switched over to doing that. I'm entirely aware of the number of games that works via micro-transactions. I just don't think it's a system that entirely works that well. Take Champions Online (I may be thinking of something else. I do believe Champions did this or something similar, at least), with required micro-transactions to further customize your character, unlock additional content, and generally improve you game experience. Though they're not the best example of this as they still had a subscription system that as far as I can tell, which gave you most of the content that f2p players would have to either buy or work around a more limited version of (including customer support!).

I always felt that the micro-transaction model only worked if your character didn't really matter, like in Team Fortress 2. In a RPG, I find that it not only weakens my own experience if I have to buy things to customize my character or get the whole game experience, but if other people can't do the same. Even if I did put down the money to customize my character, I would feel like the odd one out around everyone who couldn't do that when they're limited to a smaller pool of items, that often just aren't as cool as the stuff you can buy. In a MMO, your game experience can rely on other people having just as great of an experience as you are. A subscription based model would allow people to start off on more similar footing, allowing them to advance through the game as they please instead of being restricted by certain features being locked. I would also see this as one of the more divisive issues among the community if the game did this. Finally, the appeal of replaying the game with a different character would be considerably lessened due to this system. You would be more likely to cling onto a character if you have actually money invested into it. This can be seen as both a good and bad thing, I guess, but a lot of content can be entirely missed out on if you don't try different characters and play styles.

Looking into this more, I find that payment systems are one of those things that you should have more of, instead of fewer or even just one. Going back to Champions, it allowed you to get around most of the micro-transactions by paying a subscription fee. This does make the game one of those with an "elite members" or whatever you want to call it system, which is one option that I listed as less appealing before. However, I find it more appealing in conjunction with the inclusion of a f2p and micro-transactions system. At the end of the day, the f2p model had a minimal effect on those willing to pay the fee to play the game, allowed more players to get into the game, and simply gave them more ways to make money. It even had a lifetime subscription option for those who only wanted to pay once. Or take Eve Online, which allows you to pay the game subscription with in-game currency. This rewards players for playing the game (by allowing them to continue to play the game), and is just an additional option for those looking for one. This isn't a case where there is one right option, but many (and they're more correct when you have multiple options). People prefer different payment methods, and allowing more into a game is more likely to benefit both your player-base and the people making the game. By allowing more options, people are more likely to put money down on the option that appeals to them personally. If their preferred payment system isn't there, they'll be less likely to pay money for your game. For the developers and publishers, the benefit is obvious. A more active user-base and more opportunities to make money.

So if they only use one system, I would still prefer for it to be subscription based (which is the one that they're thankfully doing). However, instead of dedicating to one option, why not do several? I see that system working out for the best.
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Re: TESO - how to make it work

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AKB wrote:So if they only use one system, I would still prefer for it to be subscription based (which is the one that they're thankfully doing). However, instead of dedicating to one option, why not do several? I see that system working out for the best.
we have literally zero information regarding what payment system they will use.
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Re: TESO - how to make it work

Post by AKB »

I remember reading that it was going to be subscription based and didn't double check this. If I'm incorrect, I apologize for the assumption.
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Re: TESO - how to make it work

Post by Mefris Elmek »

Please don't do that. It's a PITA to reply to, basically requires the other person to do the same thing to you, and it almost always leads to straw man arguments somewhere down the line.
Regardless,it's the way I like to reply because it leads to more focused answers.If you don't like it,don't quote me.
I would also prefer you don't insult my intelligence by acting like I don't know what micro-transactions are or their significance to the gaming scene when I mention them by name and talk about what they include.
We have something in common then because I don't take kindly to being called ridiculous directly or otherwise.Yes,it was evident that you knew what micro-transactions are but the "significance to the gaming scene" part was something I didn't see in your post.

In regards to the rest of your post I understand and respect your point of view but I wholeheartedly disagree with you on the idea that P2P is more appealing then F2P(especially in this day an age).Not everyone has the financial power to pay a monthly subscription fee for a game that they already bought for 60$ .With this in mind F2P MMO's appeal to a much larger spectrum and at the same time it makes more money for the company.Win win IMO.
Also,in general,things that you can buy through micro-transactions are balanced so that they don't utterly ruin the game for players that chose not to buy them.
Or take Eve Online, which allows you to pay the game subscription with in-game currency.
An ingenious idea that contributes to EVE's success.Tera also uses this idea :) Basically if you are rich in game you will never have to worry about the subscription ever again.
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Re: TESO - how to make it work

Post by Yal »

Social accommodation is one of the keys to making an MMO last.

I know as a Star Wars Galaxies player, the community and the memories, along with the epic open world PvP, was everything to us. And we LOVED it.

Central places for hangouts...where EVERYBODY (levels 1-100) wants to go. Just a huge thing every MMO needs.
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Re: TESO - how to make it work

Post by dzio »

I really like the idea of multiple ways of paying for the game, for the same reasons that AKB listed.

@Mefris - it all depends on the answer to one question - more appealing to whom? If we're talking about the entire potential fanbase, then I agree, most of them would probably chose F2P with micro-transactions. If we're talking about longtime TES fans who are also into roleplaying, I'd say it's a difference audience altogether and many of them would choose subscription. I know I would. Having to reach for my credit card when I want to change my character's hairstyle is the exact opposite of immersion, and that's what I'm looking for in my gaming.

I'm also not so optimistic about the micro-transactions being balanced. You said:
Mefris Elmek wrote:they don't utterly ruin the game for players that chose not to buy them.
I say: maybe not utterly, but every one has their own limits and what to one person is just a mild inconvinience, to another may be too much of an ingerence into their game experience. For me anything that limits my roleplaying possibilities without a good in-game explanation is hard to accept. I could buy it if they came up with a reasonable in-game justification (don't have any ideas now), or if the RP servers were solid enough and with a strong enough RP community that it wouldn't matter. Otherwise it's probably crossing the line into unplayable territory for me.
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Re: TESO - how to make it work

Post by OblivionDuruza »

dzio wrote:How about using this kind of restriction for hardcore RP server(s) only? I think the game creators know their fanbase well enough to recognize the fact that a server for serious roleplayers should exist and I also think it's a good idea to implement some sort of protection against it being overrun by players not interested in roleplaying. Sticking to lore-compatible names might be one of such protections.
That I can see as a pretty reasonable suggestion actually. I certainly feel that fans themselves can band together and decide to follow a set of general guidelines which they feel will hlep improve the MMO experience for them as long-time TES fans, and thus set it apart from other MMOs, and if Zenimax Online can help foster this through different servers, all the better.
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Re: TESO - how to make it work

Post by AKB »

To reply to Mefris: I guess I owe you an apology as well. It was rude for me to assume that you didn't know what you were talking about, as it was for you to do the same to me.

As I've said, payment options are one of those things that everyone has an opinion on, and a preference. In my own experience, people complain about micro-transactions so much that it can ruin the experience, and balancing a system that requires actual money to fully use is rather difficult, and will often see people complaining even if the game is entirely balanced (which, let's face it, is something that very few games ever manage to do). I just don't want to see the "ESO is pay to win." rants that would follow a micro-transaction system. While I have other problems with micro-transactions, it's all a matter of preference. As I said, the most reasonable thing to do would be for Zenimax Online Studios to create as many alternative payment systems as possible.
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Re: TESO - how to make it work

Post by Mefris Elmek »

@Mefris - it all depends on the answer to one question - more appealing to whom? If we're talking about the entire potential fanbase(1), then I agree, most of them would probably chose F2P with micro-transactions. If we're talking about longtime TES fans who are also into roleplaying, I'd say it's a difference audience altogether and many of them would choose subscription. I know I would.Having to reach for my credit card when I want to change my character's hairstyle is the exact opposite of immersion(2), and that's what I'm looking for in my gaming
1)To everyone in general from TES fans and casual MMO players to those who like the recipe from other games that do it well (ex. Guild Wars).
2)That most definitely won't be the case with TESO.DC Universe for example has 2/3 (if not more) of it's aesthetic content available to every player while only 1/3 is "contra cost".I don't know about you folks but I could live with that in TESO because not being able to chose the Pink Limited Edition "Siths in Chains" horse armour would not kill my RP's.
^That's basically 50 to 80%(depending on MMO/company) of content in a F2P MMO's shop,the same thing you found yesterday after a 3 hour battle with a Flesh Atronach but in a different colour and an added sticker.
That being said I do agree with you Dizio,people have different confort zones and while I may find it alright others might not.
AKB wrote:To reply to Mefris: I guess I owe you an apology as well. It was rude for me to assume that you didn't know what you were talking about, as it was for you to do the same to me.

As I've said, payment options are one of those things that everyone has an opinion on, and a preference. In my own experience, people complain about micro-transactions so much that it can ruin the experience, and balancing a system that requires actual money to fully use is rather difficult, and will often see people complaining even if the game is entirely balanced (which, let's face it, is something that very few games ever manage to do). I just don't want to see the "ESO is pay to win." rants that would follow a micro-transaction system. While I have other problems with micro-transactions, it's all a matter of preference. As I said, the most reasonable thing to do would be for Zenimax Online Studios to create as many alternative payment systems as possible.
*shakes AKB's hand* :)

Zenimax would just have to look over the fence at ArenaNet for the best example of a micro-transaction system and if they would steal borrow it from them it would be to our collective benefit.

On multiple methods of paying I'd say:Why not?
Also,if they would add the option of paying subscriptions/additional services through in game currency that would be just golden.
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Re: TESO - how to make it work

Post by LauZ »

A wise micro-transaction with a good explanation would be something like:

Smith: So, you like to customisate your armor? what do you like? a dragon, a lion?

A thing like that works perfectly with the object examination engine of skyrim... I wish I could play TESO when it arrives...
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Re: TESO - how to make it work

Post by Yal »

Customization up the butt and Excellent social accommodation. Magnificent PvP. And a huge world of awesome. That's all I ask for.

F2P is a scam
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Re: TESO - how to make it work

Post by Mefris Elmek »

Smith: So, you like to customisate your armor? what do you like? a dragon, a lion?
Thats the sort of customization that I would like to be free.Also,the Dragon,the Lion and the Pheonix are the symbols of the different factions:
The Dragon=Ebonheart Pact
The Lion=Daggerfall Covenant
The Pheonix=Aldmeri Dominion
With this in mind it's safe to assume that if you are,for example,a Dunmer you won't be able to wear armour with the other faction's symbol on it like the DG C lion.
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Re: TESO - how to make it work

Post by LauZ »

Or other players will insult you...
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Re: TESO - how to make it work

Post by Smolgen »

I know it's not really a big thing but I think adding player housing would be cool. I know they said that player housing is to hard to implement in an mmo, but other mmo's have done this plenty of times. Since their drawing ideas from other mmo's why don't they take the guild wars 2 housing idea which is the best so far I think. We can buy a house and it is instanced and we can personalize it however we want, upgrade it and all that stuff. We can invite whoever we want inside and they can see all our stuff. I always loved being able to go to my house and just throw all the crap I had gotten from deadric ruins and caves I had looted on the floor. I think this will make the immersion at least a little more similar to the single player games and I wont have to ''pretend'' my character lives somewhere.
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Re: TESO - how to make it work

Post by LauZ »

I would love to se something magnific like a WOE of Ragnarok Online in TESO.
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Re: TESO - how to make it work

Post by Tiber_Septim_Inn »

AKB wrote:
To those who think this should be free to play, you do know how ridiculous that notion is, right?
-------------------------------------------------
Mefris Elmek
No,but I can see someone talking about things he has no clue about whatsoever.Now THAT I find ridiculous.
To elaborate:

Age of Conan,Lord of The RIngs Online,City of Heros,City of Villans,Champions Online,DC Universe etc. all started on a P2P platform and after losing massive amounts of subscribers (read money) they changed to F2P.
Now,what did that do?It actually increased subscribers and at the same time it increased revenue.
...."What?!"you say.
YES!Ironically,history has shown us that MMO's that are free to play generate substantially more money.
"Through what!?"you say.

-------------------
That's a good point but I have one tiny question: Where is your proof that all of these games had increased revenue after switching to F2P. Also, your argument is a bit flawed as well. All of these games couldn't make it on the P2P scene mainly because they sucked, not because P2P is a flawed system. Comparing any of these to DDO, they just can't really compete in any manner. Then, you compare DDO to a monster like WoW and the difference really shows there as well.

Here's why P2P fails: Developers just naturally assume "Derp de derp derp, I'm gunna make the new World of Warcraft without putting any time or money into the project that is comparable to what was put into WoW. Then, I'm gunna charge people money!" When bad games go P2P, they are destined to fail. Your list of examples clearly shows that. When good games go P2P, they do well. WoW and Tera prove that.

I could use a similar analogy. I have a choice to go to either Craptastic High School or Super Awesome College Prep High School. CHS costs absolutely nothing and SACPHS costs plenty (10k/annually). CHS tried to charge parents 200 bucks a month to cover certain fees but that didn't work out too well so they ended up dropping things altogether. SACPHS costs 10k/year to this day...and still worth every penny. The reasoning? SACPHS is just so much better and it can clearly warrant a monthly/yearly tuition, whereas CHS can't because the teachers suck, the food sucks, classroom sucks...everything sucks. SACPHS has great teachers (some of which used to be professors at University level), the classrooms are fully equipped with awesome computers, furniture is great, the food is made by a local culinary expert, etc etc. This is just based on my own personal experience...although the names have been changed.

People will pay to enjoy a very satisfying experience. That's just common sense. if you can't provide it, don't charge in the first place. That's where LoL really outshines plenty of other games. LoL was made to be one of the best F2P games on the market, not a [&@%!]-poor, mediocre P2P.

EDIT: Also, it helps to mention that because of WoW's overwhelming success, Blizzard is able to develop and release incredibly superior B2P games. Couldn't pull that off with F2P micro transactions.

Just to add another note: Kabam, one of the leading F2P developers on Facebook, had to undergo massive layoffs because the F2P model couldn't continue to maintain a growing company. They tried to make every single one of their games F2P but eventually, they had a Rome disaster (too big, not enough to go around). Without substantial income and a dwindling player base (due in part to the fact that they sell the same game with a new skin, instead of pouring money and time into a new project), they have gone from the success story of 2011 to the horror story of 2012. Fact.
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Re: TESO - how to make it work

Post by Mefris Elmek »

Where is your proof that all of these games had increased revenue after switching to F2P.
Evidently,I wouldn't post something without having proof to go with it.
All the games I mentioned above have reports on the internet published by their developers that show that when they changed their policy from P2P to F2P a spike in players and revenue occurred.

Edit:To save you the trouble of "Batmaning" the internet for clues I would recommend Machinima's "All your History" show.It has a few episodes dedicated to the history of the MMO genre from the early M.U.D's to Star Wars The Old Republic,if I remember correctly (with innovations,revenues from P2P/F2P etc.) :)
All of these games couldn't make it on the P2P scene mainly because they sucked, not because P2P is a flawed system.
P2P isn't more or less flawed then anything else in the industry and none of those games really "sucked".The real problem is ...
"Derp de derp derp, I'm gunna make the new World of Warcraft without putting any time or money into the project that is comparable to what was put into WoW. Then, I'm gunna charge people money!"
...this^.
You basically covered everything regarded to this subject in your post so I don't really have much to add.

Long story short,practically every MMO that came out after WoW was intended to kill it and all of them failed miserably.Why?Because they couldn't offer something truly new and unique and they were basically WoW with Gandalf ,little hobbits or Arnold "I'm the govana' "look-alikes running around.

With this in mind,why would a WoW subscriber jump ship if there was really nothing there waiting for him except a change of scenery at the cost of the same amount of money he is ALREADY paying?
Why would he leave a game world and the friends he met there if he is getting nothing more(or even LESS in some cases) then he's already got?
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Re: TESO - how to make it work

Post by SajuukKhar »

Mefris Elmek wrote:
"Derp de derp derp, I'm gunna make the new World of Warcraft without putting any time or money into the project that is comparable to what was put into WoW. Then, I'm gunna charge people money!"
...this^.
You basically covered everything regarded to this subject in your post so I don't really have much to add.

Long story short,practically every MMO that came out after WoW was intended to kill it and all of them failed miserably.Why?Because they couldn't offer something truly new and unique and they were basically WoW with Gandalf ,little hobbits or Arnold "I'm the govana' "look-alikes running around.

With this in mind,why would a WoW subscriber jump ship if there was really nothing there waiting for him except a change of scenery at the cost of the same amount of money he is ALREADY paying?
Why would he leave a game world and the friends he met there if he is getting nothing more(or even LESS in some cases) then he's already got?
That very thing is probably why Zenimax Online is throwing a lot of elements from new MMOs like TERA and Guild Wars 2 into TES:O.

All I could think of while reading the 19 page Game Informer article was "TES:O sounds like Guild Wars 2".

I am interested in seeing how well they can incorporate those elements into the game.
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Re: TESO - how to make it work

Post by Mefris Elmek »

All I could think of while reading the 19 page Game Informer article was "TES:O sounds like Guild Wars 2".
Funny,that was the exact same feeling I got from their TESO hub. :)

I really hope ZO can pull this one off because it would result in a marvellous game.
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Re: TESO - how to make it work

Post by SajuukKhar »

Mefris Elmek wrote:Funny,that was the exact same feeling I got from their TESO hub. :)

I really hope ZO can pull this one off because it would result in a marvellous game.
I think the game will be........... good, not great, but good.

There is far to much about the ES lore and world that doesn't translate to games very well.

Like I doubt the tree cities of Valenwood will walk, or that Alinor(the city) will be made of crystal/glass, or that Cyrodiil would be a jungle... etc. etc. It would cause too many technical problems or make the game unplayable for many.
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Re: TESO - how to make it work

Post by dzio »

To get this discussion back on track - what would make TESO work, lore-wise, for you? For me it's two things - making the new game as consistent with the older lore as possible without ruining the gameplay, and including something designed specifically for the lore buffs. Like a questline that requires the player to know a lot of lore in order to decipher the clues, or maybe some in-game event aimed specifically at the players who like this stuff. This way the game could be "lore-heavy" without becoming boring or unplayable to more casual players and newcomers to TES universe.
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Re: TESO - how to make it work

Post by The Raven »

Maybe instanced worlds like Guild Wars... that'd be rather cool. IMO TES should really just be Co-Op not full-blown MUHMUHOUHARRPEEGEE
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Re: TESO - how to make it work

Post by SajuukKhar »

dzio wrote:To get this discussion back on track - what would make TESO work, lore-wise, for you? For me it's two things - making the new game as consistent with the older lore as possible without ruining the gameplay, and including something designed specifically for the lore buffs. Like a questline that requires the player to know a lot of lore in order to decipher the clues, or maybe some in-game event aimed specifically at the players who like this stuff. This way the game could be "lore-heavy" without becoming boring or unplayable to more casual players and newcomers to TES universe.
As I recall they said in one of the Game Informer articles that several dungeons use things like the constellations as clues as to how to solve puzzles.
The Raven wrote:Maybe instanced worlds like Guild Wars... that'd be rather cool. IMO TES should really just be Co-Op not full-blown MUHMUHOUHARRPEEGEE
They did say the Main Quest is 100% solo through instances.
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Re: TESO - how to make it work

Post by Pilaf The Defiler »

dzio wrote:To get this discussion back on track - what would make TESO work, lore-wise, for you? For me it's two things - making the new game as consistent with the older lore as possible without ruining the gameplay, and including something designed specifically for the lore buffs. Like a questline that requires the player to know a lot of lore in order to decipher the clues, or maybe some in-game event aimed specifically at the players who like this stuff. This way the game could be "lore-heavy" without becoming boring or unplayable to more casual players and newcomers to TES universe.

I'll truly never understand this line of thinking. None of the TES games released so far have been for lore buffs. None. The selling point of a TES game is the open world and exploration, as well as being whatever character you want to be. The interesting background lore is there for people who are interested in it, but they do not sell the games on lore. This MMO absolutely sticks to the core mission statement from the Arena manual:

Remember the old pencil-and-paper RPG's? The limits of your adventure were only defined by your own imagination. The dungeon master didn't force anyone down a particular path (if he knew what he was doing) but instead allowed the players to explore the world he had created. If you wanted to stay in the town and become a local hero, fine. If instead you wished to step into the shoes of a starship Captain and save the universe, that was also fine. A good DM had lots of imagination, and all the answers. The players provided the adventure.

In The Elder Scrolls, we have strived to put the fun back into role-playing. We have given the world many areas of exploration, over four hundred places where death can be dealt in new and exciting ways. It is a place where those of you who love combat and spell casting can earn fame and fortune by proving your prowess in battle. Among the hundreds of quests present in the world, the opportunity to save the Empire is there, for those who are brave or foolhardy enough to seek it out. We plan to dedicate further expansion and adventure modules to giving people new areas to explore or other mysteries to solve.


^ Consider this MMO another form of adventure module to continue the original mission statement of the Elder Scrolls.
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Re: TESO - how to make it work

Post by dzio »

Notice that I said "including something designed specifically for the lore buffs". That's not the same as making a game for the lore buffs. And, IMHO, the depth and consistency of TES universe (in other words - the lore) is a huge part of its success. I don't think a huge open world, but without an interesting history or traditions would be anywhere near as attractive.
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