TESO - how to make it work

[dzio]

It's been pointed out that a) "MMO announced" thread now includes everything and it's hard to discuss anything specific there, and b) many people are being very negative about the MMO, and not very constructively.

So here is the topic for all of us, who aren't very happy with the idea of TESO as a generic MMO and would like to answer the question - what kind of MMO should it be, in order to appeal to the naysayers?

I'm one of them, so I'll start.

It should be difficult. I don't mean that it should be done in a way that severely limits the enjoyment of the game for more casual players, but I'd like it to be impossible to get anywhere near the endgame content without putting some serious effort into the "RP" part of "MMORPG", using your mind and employing many different skills and actions, not all of which include killing something.

It can't be overcrowded. It could be done by either setting up many separate servers or by creating big enough world, so that we won't see tiny settlements with 100 adventuring heroes hanging around the village green. TES universe is all about immersion, and for that the world needs to feel real, be actually believable. The land where 65% of denizens are professional adventurers is not believable, by any stretch of imagination.

It must be fun to explore. So - variety, careful locations design and no stupid markers magically telling you everything about the land 5 miles around you, even if you've never been there. If you want to find the cave, you need to run around the hills until you actually find the entrance.

A lot of different ways for players to interact with each other and with the world. If some people want to start a bards college, a trading company, a school of alchemy or a secret order of daedra worshippers, they shouldn't have to do this against the game mechanics. That's the whole pointo of playing an MMO - other people. And the whole point of a TES game is immersion and freedom of choice. Those two things should not be disconnected.

Anyway, that's me. Thoughts, ideas, opinions? And how about you? What would make the anti-TESO crowd actually consider playing the game?

[Sopherius]

I want an instanced world, in lieu of Guild Wars. If I get that, I think a lot of my issues with potential immersiveness would be solved.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Define "instanced world" as you understand it.

The way I understand this game, everything happens on the main map including pVp arenas and dungeons/raids. Also, the way I understand it, it doesn't use the "dps/tank/heal" trinity that other MMOs use and theoretically it would be possible for five rogues to complete a dungeon. I kinda like this more organic and less structured feel to the game experience. One of the things I hated about WoW was that it was actually too formulated. I'd enjoy a game that was more TES like and forgiving on individual playstyle choices.

[Sopherius]

Define "instanced world" as you understand it.

The way I understand this game, everything happens on the main map including pVp arenas and dungeons/raids. Also, the way I understand it, it doesn't use the "dps/tank/heal" trinity that other MMOs use and theoretically it would be possible for five rogues to complete a dungeon. I kinda like this more organic and less structured feel to the game experience. One of the things I hated about WoW was that it was actually too formulated. I'd enjoy a game that was more TES like and forgiving on individual playstyle choices.

Wikipedia: "The problem can be stated as follows: every player wants to be "The Hero", slay "The Monster", rescue "The Princess", and obtain "The Magic Sword". When there are thousands of players all playing the same game, clearly not everyone can be the hero. The problem of everyone wanting to kill the same monster and gain the best treasure became obvious in the game EverQuest, where several groups of players would compete and sometimes harass each other in the same dungeon, in order to get to the monsters dropping valuable items. The creation of instances largely solves this set of problems, leaving only travelling to and from the dungeon as a potential risk in player versus player environments.[2] Instancing preserves the gaming experience, since some gaming scenarios do not work if the player is continually surrounded by other players, as in a multiplayer setting."

This sums it up quite nicely. Granted, 'in lieu of Guild Wars' would indicate a preference over how Guild Wars utilizes instancing. Guild Wars doesn't even refer to itself as an MMO, but rather, a CORPG, due to this.

[Witchery]

I want restrictions. Classes. I don't want to see a bunch of god-characters like people can be in the game. . . It will totally ruin the experience for me, if I do choose to play this game. (I know, in the MMO thread I sounded like I wanted nothing to do with TES:O. . . but I think it could work. If done correctly.) I want the warriors to be warriors. If you choose that class, no Mages Guild or spellcasting! (Of course, I doubt they'll allow that to happen.) If you want to have a spellcaster, make another character. (And Spellswords and Nightblades shouldn't be as good at magic as Mages or Battlemages.)

And the names . . . if I see "xXSN1P3R451Xx," "n00bt00ber5" and "xXxXxDEMONdarknesz232536121xXx" I'll cringe. Usernames aside, I mean . . the name of your character should preferably come from an approved (and hopefully lengthy) list, depending on your race. I know it sounds a little oppressive and anti-artistic integrity, but it would be a relief to me, personally. This, too, will probably not happen.

I, too, want enough servers to make the world seem big. I would hate to see over-crowded areas and what have you. . . Difficulty is important to me as well. If there's a level cap, I don't want to reach that within a month. I don't want everyone running around in Daedric Armor and . . . bleh.

[Sopherius]

I agree, Witchery. There's no question about me buying the game or not. I'll always be interested in seeing how it'll turn out, but it's problems like those you listed that make me cringe at how it may turn out, and how it may hamper how immersive it can be for me. I plan on rolling on a Roleplay server to partially circumvent this. At least I may be surrounded by like-minded people.

[Witchery]

I agree, Witchery. There's no question about me buying the game or not. I'll always be interested in seeing how it'll turn out, but it's problems like those you listed that make me cringe at how it may turn out, and how it may hamper how immersive it can be for me. I plan on rolling on a Roleplay server to partially circumvent this. At least I may be surrounded by like-minded people.

A roleplay server would be heavenly. (I've stated it before; lore and roleplay are the only reasons I play this series! If it turns into a WoW . . . )

[Imp]

I just had this idea, I don't know if it has a name or anything but...

I was thinking that the NPCs should be real people, instead AI. I think it would help the RPing a bit.

[Jcnator]

The skill system that most TES games use for Leveling up instead of the overused MMO EXP grinding.

Also, it occurred to me a little funny idea: Khajiit races could have a optional filter in the chat that makes players speak like Khajiit. EX: I= "PlayerName"

[dzio]

Witchery - as a huge fan of Morrowind I don't agree with your "restrictions" idea. I mean, Morrowind allows you to be the master of Mystycism and a champion swordsman at the same time, or a thief who can pick any lock and also knows everything about magickal potions and poisons. Freedom, that's what TES is about for me. I can accept that my mage isn't able to wield an axe bacause he's too weak to lift it, but I won't accept the same restriction if the only reason behind it is "because he's a mage".

But the names - yes. Maybe they could make some random names generator, so that there aren't 178 players with the same name, but not allowing any "RaInBoW_PrInCeSs_HuGgLeS" and "1pwnYurAs" is a good idea.

I just had this idea, I don't know if it has a name or anything but...

I was thinking that the NPCs should be real people, instead AI. I think it would help the RPing a bit.

They did it like that in some old MUDs that I used to play years ago - if there was an NPC extremely important to the currently implemented event, they would put a real person behind the computer to run the character's interactions with the players. Or sometimes the admins and creators would "wear" an NPC for a while, to make the world more realistic - if someone talked to the shopkeeper/barmaid/guard/necromacer's apprentice during that time, they would get a real conversation, instead of predefined lines. It was awesome, but I'm not sure if it's possible to implement in a modern MMORPG of this scale.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

I've got dibs on Marakhuti_Pilaf.

[dzio]

See, Pilaf, that's not a good TES name, that's an MMO name. Does any NPC you've ever met in TES games have an "_" in their names?

[Witchery]

Restrictions to your class, like in Oblivion, is what I'm in favor of. A Spellsword is not going to be a master lockpick and a Mage isn't good at swinging a sword. (Make a Battlemage or Spellsword for that.) I understand that many people enjoy the freedom to be a "jack of all trades" even if it isn't supported by the lore, but that's in the single player games . . . in an MMO, without restrictions, there wouldn't be any need for more than one character. Everyone could be the Daedric champion of the Mages Guild, Thieves Guild, Fighters Guild, Dark Brotherhood, Dragonborn defeater of Molag Bal who sells pies on the side. "Specializing" is the only way to be good at something realistically, and that's why I feel the TES games are considered so immersive. A champion of Mysticism and a swordsman would probably be a Spellsword -- one who uses weapons primarily, and magic as a backup. (the opposite being Battlemage -- weapons second, magic first.) A thief that can make potions and poisons is completely supported by the lore, and is, I'm sure, a reason that Alchemy was moved to the "Stealth" section in Skyrim. Mages and thieves can be good at Alchemy. Just like Warriors and Mages can be wonderful Enchanters. But a Warrior isn't going to sling around Firebolts and still be a Warrior.

Random? I think a list would be a good idea, so people can choose, and a "that name is taken" feature would be beneficial as well.

Pilaf, that's my point exactly. . . lol. NPC names are the "lore supported" names in TES, and I think players should be restricted to choose those, even in an MMO. Say, if you had a Redguard thief, and his name was "123_pwnsome" would that make more sense than a Redguard named "Amren"?

[Sopherius]

Restrictions to your class, like in Oblivion, is what I'm in favor of. A Spellsword is not going to be a master lockpick and a Mage isn't good at swinging a sword. (Make a Battlemage or Spellsword for that.) I understand that many people enjoy the freedom to be a "jack of all trades" even if it isn't supported by the lore, but that's in the single player games . . . in an MMO, without restrictions, there wouldn't be any need for more than one character. Everyone could be the Daedric champion of the Mages Guild, Thieves Guild, Fighters Guild, Dark Brotherhood, Dragonborn defeater of Molag Bal who sells pies on the side. "Specializing" is the only way to be good at something realistically, and that's why I feel the TES games are considered so immersive. A champion of Mysticism and a swordsman would probably be a Spellsword -- one who uses weapons primarily, and magic as a backup. (the opposite being Battlemage -- weapons second, magic first.) A thief that can make potions and poisons is completely supported by the lore, and is, I'm sure, a reason that Alchemy was moved to the "Stealth" section in Skyrim. Mages and thieves can be good at Alchemy. Just like Warriors and Mages can be wonderful Enchanters.

Random? I think a list would be a good idea, so people can choose, and a "that name is taken" feature would be beneficial as well.

Pilaf, that's my point exactly. . . lol. NPC names are the "lore supported" names in TES, and I think players should be restricted to choose those, even in an MMO. Say, if you had a Redguard thief, and his name was "123_pwnsome" would that make more sense than a Redguard named "Amren"?

That's one thing I always hated! I get the impression from some articles, that the Champion of Cyrodiil canonically became Sheogorath, Arch-mage of the Mages Guild, Listener of the Dark Brotherhood, Divine Crusader, and just about everything else simultaneously. I always liked thinking that a separate person became each, with the exception of the Champion of Cyrodiil becoming Sheogorath.

[Witchery]

That's one thing I always hated! I get the impression from some articles, that the Champion of Cyrodiil canonically became Sheogorath, Arch-mage of the Mages Guild, Listener of the Dark Brotherhood, Divine Crusader, and just about everything else simultaneously. I always liked thinking that a separate person became each, with the exception of the Champion of Cyrodiil becoming Sheogorath.

Yes! That's the difference between those that play for roleplay and those that play for gameplay. I personally make a different character for each role that I'm trying to fulfill. (I have a Dragonborn that is part of the Companions, though. )

[Smolgen]

Well i am really disappointed with the whole generic mmo thing. They stated they wanted to make ''the best mmo ever'' but it just doesn't seem to offer anything greatly revolutionary. The biggest letdown for me is combat. I was almost expecting the game to have a real time combat system like some other mmo's have attempted, such as darkfall, mortal online, and i think age of conan as well as tera online. If they had just made the combat real time, I think i may have been able to live with all the other generic features they're offering. Besides that, i just feel like the game should be more of a sandbox type of game. The elder scrolls series has always been about letting you do whatever you want, whenever you want. That's what I've always loved about it. The developers just built this amazing, and very detailed world with so much in it and they just throw you into it and let you go from there. So when I imagined an elder scrolls mmo, I always thought it would be a great sandbox mmo. You could join the thieves, fighters or mages guilds, as well as several others, be any type of character, explore the world, just do whatever. I agree that the game should force the players to go out there and actually explore to discover content. Overall, I guess i may just be asking for another darkfall, but I just feel like this game is going in the wrong direction and it just seems like an elder scrolls game in name alone. Why they would deliberately put in these changes, as if players want the same old generic features, is beyond me. I will still keep an eye on the game though and hopefully as more is revealed, some changes or other features that are shown that make it feel like an actual elder scrolls game. I don't want to diss the game before it is even shown completely but i am just angry with what has already been revealed.

[dzio]

Witchery - okay, I agree that with the looooong playtime of an MMO not applying restrictions of any kind would make every longlasting character a champion of everything, which is not of the good. But why not combine my idea with yours? Let's say you play a mage - it shouldn't mean that you can't swing that axe at all "just because", but learning to do it correctly could be more difficult and more time-consuming than improving your magickal skills. It meshes perfectly with the TES experience system - you practice something so you get better at it, but because you've chosen this class, you have a better affinity for certain skills so you learn them faster, and others require hours and hours of use to see any kind of improvement. My point is - fine, make it very very hard, but don't make it impossible if there is no in-game reason for it.

[Witchery]

Witchery - okay, I agree that with the looooong playtime of an MMO not applying restrictions of any kind would make every longlasting character a champion of everything, which is not of the good. But why not combine my idea with yours? Let's say you play a mage - it shouldn't mean that you can't swing that axe at all "just because", but learning to do it correctly could be more difficult and more time-consuming than improving your magickal skills. It meshes perfectly with the TES experience system - you practice something so you get better at it, but because you've chosen this class, you have a better affinity for certain skills so you learn them faster, and others require hours and hours of use to see any kind of improvement. My point is - fine, make it very very hard, but don't make it impossible if there is no in-game reason for it.

Yes, that would be a restriction. There would be no logical reason to do that, though Why try and level up a skill that doesn't fit your characters class whenever you can just make a character that's good at it?

[KayCee]

Witchery - okay, I agree that with the looooong playtime of an MMO not applying restrictions of any kind would make every longlasting character a champion of everything, which is not of the good. But why not combine my idea with yours? Let's say you play a mage - it shouldn't mean that you can't swing that axe at all "just because", but learning to do it correctly could be more difficult and more time-consuming than improving your magickal skills. It meshes perfectly with the TES experience system - you practice something so you get better at it, but because you've chosen this class, you have a better affinity for certain skills so you learn them faster, and others require hours and hours of use to see any kind of improvement. My point is - fine, make it very very hard, but don't make it impossible if there is no in-game reason for it.

I don’t think that’s a good idea. Eventually people will be running around with every skill maxed. It may sound impossible but if this game is released and does well enough, people will be playing it for years and overtime someone is going to get to godly status. If they do implement this, they should add some sort of negative effect.

[Witchery]

Witchery - okay, I agree that with the looooong playtime of an MMO not applying restrictions of any kind would make every longlasting character a champion of everything, which is not of the good. But why not combine my idea with yours? Let's say you play a mage - it shouldn't mean that you can't swing that axe at all "just because", but learning to do it correctly could be more difficult and more time-consuming than improving your magickal skills. It meshes perfectly with the TES experience system - you practice something so you get better at it, but because you've chosen this class, you have a better affinity for certain skills so you learn them faster, and others require hours and hours of use to see any kind of improvement. My point is - fine, make it very very hard, but don't make it impossible if there is no in-game reason for it.

I don’t think that’s a good idea. Eventually people will be running around with every skill maxed. It may sound impossible but if this game is released and does well enough, people will be playing it for years and overtime someone is going to get to godly status. If they do implement this, they should add some sort of negative effect.

Like spell effectiveness when wearing armor?

[KayCee]

Like spell effectiveness when wearing armor?

Yes, something like that, or maybe if you begin to level different skills, others will start to decrease. Say you have an old character that you’ve been playing for years but you’re bored of your class, maybe this could be a good way to change that. Rather than starting all over again you can simply begin learning new skills at the cost of your old ones.

But I honestly doubt they would give us this kind of freedom.

[dzio]

Well all right, it is a restriction. Just not a very strict one. I think it should be theoretically possible for a character to get good at everything, because there's no logical in-game reason against it ("because they will break the game" is not an in-game reason). They could make it so that it's not practical at all, so the players wouldn't be gods - for example a smart inventory system combined with radically different equipement required to do the top-level work in each field could solve some of the problems. Or maybe they should make sneaking with a ton of gear in the pack and a heavy armour impossible. Or casting spells while fighting would be extremely hard, because of the need to focus on many diffeternt things at the same time. Or a character that starts as a pure mage could gain more physical abilities so slowly that it would literally take forever to become any good. Or the player's actions could have real and far-reaching consequences, so following one path would close some doors along the other ones (in available quests, people's reactions, reputation with different factions, etc), so there would be no point in trying to be and do everything. Or doing everything at once wouldn't allow the player to be involved enough with any one faction to get to the endgame content.

Of course, there will always be people who want to "win" the game and there's no avoiding this, but it is entirely possible to seriously discourage them by the in-game means, without falling back on the "because I said so" kind of argument.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

See, Pilaf, that's not a good TES name, that's an MMO name. Does any NPC you've ever met in TES games have an "_" in their names?

Congratulations, sir or madam. You've utterly failed to detect sarcasm.

I actually intend to use a fully lore accurate name for my Dunmer.

Something like Ralvas Indarys or some such.

IMO you guys have some severely unrealistic expectations for this game and how players should behave, to be honest. Even most players who casually play the main series don't necessarily respect the lore or play a certain way.

It is what it is. I'm gonna play it for fun and enjoy it for what it is, and not get too worked up over how it "ruins TES". I suspect TES will be just fine, and the single player games we all love will continue for many years to come.

[Witchery]

See, Pilaf, that's not a good TES name, that's an MMO name. Does any NPC you've ever met in TES games have an "_" in their names?

Congratulations, sir or madam. You've utterly failed to detect sarcasm.

I actually intend to use a fully lore accurate name for my Dunmer.

Something like Ralvas Indarys or some such.

Well, that's wonderful! I just hope that if there isn't a regulation on names, a majority will follow suit.

[dzio]

Congratulations, sir or madam. You've utterly failed to detect sarcasm.

Since I don't know you enough yet to be sure you're not the local King of the Munchkins, I don't feel too bad about this, I've seen people post worse idiocies with full seriousness.

IMO you guys have some severely unrealistic expectations for this game and how players should behave, to be honest.

Those aren't expectations (at least mine aren't and it's not what I wanted to make this thread for). This is more of a wishlist, and in my case it's the wishlist of someone who doesn't like the entire MMO genre, so of course it's not realistic. I'm just saying that theoretically it is possible to make a MMORPG that I'd love (and judging by the posts here other naysayers think the same), it would just take standing many (if not all) traditional and tried MMO formulas on their heads. After reading the Gameinformer article I'm not expecting TESO to be this game, but who knows, maybe it will be close enough for me to actually enjoy.